Reading EGT on a manual swapped b5.5

Reading EGT on a manual trans swapped b5.5?

I'm trying to find a way to read EGT on a manual trans swapped b5.5 Passat (BHW engine, 6 spd).

Auto trans b5.5s can read it via VCDS. From this post it looks like manual trans swapped b5.5s can't http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448003&highlight=EGT+VCDS

It looks like the standard way to read through measuring block 67 is no longer available to read EGT from the stock EGT probe.

What suggestions for reading EGT?

Can a scanguage pick this data up if it isn't available in VCDS?
A separate probe and gauge?
Use the existing probe wired to a gauge?
Other options?

Thanks!

JP

Here's one idea that might work:

I have an ELM327 WiFi adapter that plugs into the OBDII port and the EngineLink app on my phone. When you start the engine and the EngineLink app is synched to the WifiAdapter, the app will show you a list of available engine parameters, such as various exhaust gas temperatures, that can be displayed in the app.

If, after your swap, at least one of the EGT probes is reporting values it might be available in the EngineLink app.

I have not been able to read that PID through ELM327.

FWIW, I am getting data for PIDs EGT11 Temp and EGT21 Temp in the EngineLink app for my '05 Passat.

I get two more EGT temps (EGT13 and EGT14) when I use the ELM transmitter in my F-250 with 6.7 diesel.

Tom, just to confirm - is your Passat an automatic, or manual trans?

Tom in PT said:

FWIW, I am getting data for PIDs EGT11 Temp and EGT21 Temp in the EngineLink app for my '05 Passat.

I get two more EGT temps (EGT13 and EGT14) when I use the ELM transmitter in my F-250 with 6.7 diesel.

Click to expand...

I have a Newsouth gauge in my manual sedan for EGTs...but I wouldn't recommend it. Went through 2 probes and they took my $50 deposit for the replacement one even after I sent in the old one. Then when I asked for it back they ignored all my emails, and another probe showed up at my house. I haven't had time to swap that one in, but even if I do it will probably fail again, maybe its the gauge idk. I can take pics of how its mounted if you want.

Another thing I'm working on is using a W8 cluster with a microcontroller to pull and relay all the data over KWP1281 to the full FIS screen. The project I found as a base is here "FISBlocks" but seems dead. I'm gonna be making my own fork eventually. Its like having a factory built in scangauge

J.P., my '05 Passat still ha the original tiptronic automatic. If your manual swap didn't involve the removing or rewiring the engine/exhaust EGT sensors you might be able to get EGT readings like I do.

Thanks for the tip. Did you consider using the factory EGT probe, and wiring to a gauge?

d0u8l3m said:

I have a Newsouth gauge in my manual sedan for EGTs...but I wouldn't recommend it. Went through 2 probes and they took my $50 deposit for the replacement one even after I sent in the old one. Then when I asked for it back they ignored all my emails, and another probe showed up at my house. I haven't had time to swap that one in, but even if I do it will probably fail again, maybe its the gauge idk. I can take pics of how its mounted if you want.

Another thing I'm working on is using a W8 cluster with a microcontroller to pull and relay all the data over KWP1281 to the full FIS screen. The project I found as a base is here "FISBlocks" but seems dead. I'm gonna be making my own fork eventually. Its like having a factory built in scangauge

Click to expand...

This is what I've found - tunes use a modified BEW codeblock, and it loses group 67 which is were the EGT data is.


I'm wondering if there is a way to use the factory EGT probe (since the ECU is not reading it) with an aftermarket gauge.

QuickTD said:

The problem is that most or all manual swap ECU tunes use a modified BEW codeblock in the ECU. The BEW did not have an EGT sensor, so it does not display the data.

I'm sure it could be rectified, but I'm not quite there in my abilities yet.

Click to expand...

J.P. said:

I'm trying to find a way to read EGT on a manual trans swapped b5.5 Passat (BHW engine, 6 spd).

Auto trans b5.5s can read it via VCDS.

It looks like the standard way to read through measuring block 67 is no longer available to read EGT from the stock EGT probe.

What suggestions for reading EGT?


Other options?

Thanks!

JP

Click to expand...

You just need a "manual trans" tune that isn't a BEW. Sadly, that's a very common practice that "works" (kinda) but causes problems like you mention. It's the 10 minute solution that's "easy cheezy" but IMO not very technically correct or elegant.

When I do the passat BHW manual conversion, I use an actual Passat BHW file that uses a manual transmission. (not a Euro audi file or passat BGW, which are DPF based and have their own problems when used in a BHW Passat) Then there is no problem reading EGT in VCDS, just like a stock BHW passat. Just like as if it came from the factory that way.

Are you sure the ECU isn't reading it, or that VCDS just isn't displaying it? Since EGT has nothing to do with manual vs. automatic transmission, my guess is that the ECU is using the data for something...

J.P. said:

This is what I've found - tunes use a modified BEW codeblock, and it loses group 67 which is were the EGT data is.


I'm wondering if there is a way to use the factory EGT probe (since the ECU is not reading it) with an aftermarket gauge.

Click to expand...

You are correct, the EGT display in diagnostics has nothing to do with the transmission per se. The problem is with the way most of the "auto to manual conversions" are actually done.

With (most) BEW ecu, there are dual sets of soft coding built in: one for manual transmission, one for auto (or DSG in the case of 2006 beetles). So "converting" most BEW ECU from auto to manual is as easy as changing the soft coding value with VCDS. (a simplification, but true enough for general discussion purposes)

But with a BHW passat, it's not that straightforward. You see, unlike a BEW, the BHW do not have dual sets of cal data built into the ecu for manual and automatic transmissions. So doing a manual conversion is not as simple for a BHW as it would be for a BEW. BHW require a completely different software version to be loaded on the bench with a BDM in order to have that manual transmission option available in the ecu. It just doesn't exist from the factory.

Somewhere along the way, someone discovered that you could take a BEW ECU and drop it in a B5 Passat and it would run the engine "just fine". So most of these "manual conversions" are just slightly adjusted BEW files that are written to the Passat ecu with a BDM. You can do this, because the actual ecu HARDWARE is 100% identical between BEW and BHW. So the BEW BDM file writes to it, easy peasy.

While this is easy and straightfroward for the tuner, it is not a 100% solution for the end user. There are problems that arise after the "shiny new" novelty wears off. Usually after all the forum praise is posted LOL

One such problem is being discussed here: BEW do not have EGT sensors from the factory. So when you use a BEW file with a few "tuning" maps changed, it will no longer show the EGT when you use a scanguage or vcds or P3 guage, or other display that taps into the ecu diagnostics for the data.

This function CAN be activated in the BEW diagnostics module, but it's beyond the capability of most tuners, who quite frankly would not know where to start. So "manual conversions" have become associated with "loss of egt display" because "that's just how it is"

Most just learn to live with the loss of the EGT indication as a price to pay for driving a B5 passat with manual transmission. And the tradeoff is not such a big deal to some. But it doesn't have to be that way.

KERMA said:

You are correct, the EGT display in diagnostics has nothing to do with the transmission per se. The problem is with the way most of the "auto to manual conversions" are actually done.
With (most) BEW ecu, there are dual sets of soft coding built in: one for manual transmission, one for auto (or DSG in the case of 2006 beetles). So "converting" most BEW ECU from auto to manual is as easy as changing the soft coding value with VCDS. (a simplification, but true enough for general discussion purposes)
But with a BHW passat, it's not that straightforward. You see, unlike a BEW, the BHW do not have dual sets of cal data built into the ecu for manual and automatic transmissions. So doing a manual conversion is not as simple for a BHW as it would be for a BEW. BHW require a completely different software version to be loaded on the bench with a BDM in order to have that manual transmission option available in the ecu. It just doesn't exist from the factory.
Somewhere along the way, someone discovered that you could take a BEW ECU and drop it in a B5 Passat and it would run the engine "just fine". So most of these "manual conversions" are just slightly adjusted BEW files that are written to the Passat ecu with a BDM. You can do this, because the actual ecu HARDWARE is 100% identical between BEW and BHW. So the BEW BDM file writes to it, easy peasy.
While this is easy and straightfroward for the tuner, it is not a 100% solution for the end user. There are problems that arise after the "shiny new" novelty wears off. Usually after all the forum praise is posted LOL
One such problem is being discussed here: BEW do not have EGT sensors from the factory. So when you use a BEW file with a few "tuning" maps changed, it will no longer show the EGT when you use a scanguage or vcds or P3 guage, or other display that taps into the ecu diagnostics for the data.
This function CAN be activated in the BEW diagnostics module, but it's beyond the capability of most tuners, who quite frankly would not know where to start. So "manual conversions" have become associated with "loss of egt display" because "that's just how it is"
Most just learn to live with the loss of the EGT indication as a price to pay for driving a B5 passat with manual transmission. And the tradeoff is not such a big deal to some. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Click to expand...

"but it's beyond the capability of most tuners, who quite frankly would not know where to start".....really???????

How about instead of being arrogant and bashing others just like your employees, you enlighten us as to how this is done...oh wait, I'm still waiting for your response to that supposed "software flaw" BHWs have, that you were complaining about in another thread and never responded to when asking for actual information showing what you were talking about and how you fix it.

Starting to think you're talking out your butt, but maybe if we were given some actual information I wouldn't be so hesitant to believe you.

QuickTD said:

I do not know of any tuner that is writing a BEW MPC file to the ECU via BDM for a manual swap, that is just silly. In fact, the reason for using the modified BEW codeblock is to avoid such a thing. The stock BHW flash can be pulled using an alientech portable flash unit or MPPS, and emailed to the tuner. The conveniently compatible BEW manual codeblock is added to the data with maps modified to suit the BHW. The file is then emailed to the customer or dealer and it is flashed back into the customers ECU. This avoids sending away the ECU have it opened and BDM'd.

I need to ask Kerma, have you ever actually done this stuff yourself, or do you have someone doing your tuning for you? Legit question, not a dig. It just doesn't sound like you've been into the "nuts and bolts".

I don't think it is a terrible shortcoming to have one measured value block missing, which is really just an oversight that could be enabled if anyone cared to do so. If you are tuning beyond a generic stage 2 tune, I feel it prudent to have fast responding, standalone gauges anyway.

I am not aware of any other shortcomings of this method of tuning for a manual swap. I have done several manual swaps and have logged many, many miles in all of them. Some I've even tuned myself, heaven forbid... They all work great. Even some with self installed PD nozzles...

Click to expand...

Yeah idk what hes talking about with writing a BEW file to a BHW ecu straight up, since the maps are in different locations. It wouldn't run like that, I don't think. I'm not sure if they are even from the same Bosch project, so you would need different definition files (not 100% on this).

Either way its like you said, nothing wrong with mapping BEW software over to the appropriate locations, both are the same EDC16 units with the same control schemes. I just checked my passat and I cant access the sensor in VCDS, so that's how malone does it, and I haven't had any issues other than a TCM code coming up every now and then in central convenience. Doesn't trip a CEL tho, I usually only see it when I scan during my oil changes.

This discussion got lively while I was unplugged for the Holiday! I'm appreciative of the info provided here.

Sooo, has anyone used the stock EGT sensor and wired to an aftermarket EGT gauge? I would think some BHW swaps have done it. If so, what's worked?

I can't access EGT via VCDS (or likely any other device), and don't have the funds for another tune right now.

JP

J.P. said:

This discussion got lively while I was unplugged for the Holiday! I'm appreciative of the info provided here.

Sooo, has anyone used the stock EGT sensor and wired to an aftermarket EGT gauge? I would think some BHW swaps have done it. If so, what's worked?

I can't access EGT via VCDS (or likely any other device), and don't have the funds for another tune right now.

JP

Click to expand...

It probably wouldn't read accurately unless you knew that the mV per degree matches the gauge. I have an email from new south with troubleshooting info that has what theirs is supposed to read:

4. Measure for mV reading, and the table is as following.

Celsius 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 1100 1190

Fahrenheit 392 572 752 932 1112 1292 1472 1652 1832 2012 2174

mV 8.138 12.209 16.397 20.644 24.905 29.129 33.275 37.326 41.276 45.119 48.473

You'll probably be better off just getting an aftermarket probe/gauge combo.

Makes sense. Thank you!


JP

d0u8l3m said:

It probably wouldn't read accurately unless you knew that the mV per degree matches the gauge. I have an email from new south with troubleshooting info that has what theirs is supposed to read:

4. Measure for mV reading, and the table is as following.

Celsius 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 1100 1190

Fahrenheit 392 572 752 932 1112 1292 1472 1652 1832 2012 2174

mV 8.138 12.209 16.397 20.644 24.905 29.129 33.275 37.326 41.276 45.119 48.473

You'll probably be better off just getting an aftermarket probe/gauge combo.

Click to expand...

I used to check EGTs on my various diesel vehicles from time to time (and boat with 94 hp diesel motor) but basically stopped looking at them because they all kept telling me the same thing over and over again:

at idle or very light throttle, EGTs around 300-350 F.


At moderate throttle, EGTs climb to 400-600 F. depending on engine load.

At high throttle for extended periods (5 min or more) temps increase to 800 or so.

I virtually never see EGTs higher than 850 for any amount of time, including my F-250 6.7 diesel towing 7,000 lbs up a 6 percent grade (~ 15,000 lbs combined weight).

My marine diesel pushing a 61,000 lb trawler at 7 knots has EGT at 600 F, and it is working at about 1/3 load swinging a 36 inch prop.


(Regens and DPF cleaning temps are NOT included in the above, but that does not apply to a VW BHW diesel)

So I got to messing around with this and I was actually able to get a readout, rather than just VCDS not displaying anything. It's a static value which leads me to believe there's another measuring block value/map that needs to be enabled in the ECU software. I'm sure ill find it at some point.

d0u8l3m said:

So I got to messing around with this and I was actually able to get a readout

Click to expand...

Care to share what you did? I have a tune for my BHW from a highly celebrated vendor thats a modified BEW tune and I really want to datalog my EGTs. I'm not afraid of jumping into a hex editor.