NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

NateTDI

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dweisel was using religiously additive (PS?) and B5, and had two failure...lubricity is not the definitive answer (but it does help a lot)
Is it possible these additives contributed to the failures? Just asking.
 

dubStrom

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eventual replacement

I appreciate the level of attention here. The real problem is VW will never "admit" there ever was a real problem. So if a newer design is really more robust, and MORE importantly, fails without catastrophic fuel system contamination (metal flakes), we won't get a fair heads up.

What I would like to do is buy a new design that WON'T fill the entire fuel system with metal flakes if it does fail. I mean, fuel pumps do fail, and I do not mind replacing one at some point.

But to be faced with replacing fuel lines or other parts that are buried under stuff that was installed later on in manufacturing to the tune of many thousands of dollars, this is really bad.

Fowl=bird, oops
 
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DEZLBOY

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The real problem is VW will never "admit" there ever was a real problem. So if a newer design is really more robust, and MORE importantly, fails without catastrophic fuel system fowling, we won't get a fair heads up.
Agreed. Until a class action suit is won, and VW has to send out notices to those with the problematic pumps with an extended warranty. Personally I think extended warranty should be the life of the car and transferable due to the expensive repairs.

Maybe owners of new (future?) VWs won't get the notices because the pumps have been fixed. Or maybe the class action suit won't cover newer years. Or maybe VW will come out with a better pump (but is would take year(s) for the pumps to illustrate per way less failures, that the problem was fixed.
 

MPBsr

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Agreed. Until a class action suit is won, and VW has to send out notices to those with the problematic pumps with an extended warranty. Personally I think extended warranty should be the life of the car and transferable due to the expensive repairs.

Maybe owners of new (future?) VWs won't get the notices because the pumps have been fixed. Or maybe the class action suit won't cover newer years. Or maybe VW will come out with a better pump (but is would take year(s) for the pumps to illustrate per way less failures, that the problem was fixed.
The only thing a class action does is makes the lawyers rich and you get a $10 coupon to Dunkin Donuts.
 

kjclow

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This is a good example why you don't want to run your fuel tank low on a CR diesel and risk cavitation, and lack of lubricity of your HPFP.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujokaEkF8Z0&feature=player_embedded
Did I miss something? All I saw was a way to remove air from my fuel. It did raise a question about how the fuel is returned to the tank on the CR cars. Working with liquids, the best return would be a bottom feed and the sencond best having return line against the side of the tank with the flow of the liquid directed towards the side of the tank. I find it difficult to believe that any engine is set up with a free falling return like in this video. Not only would this lead to foam generation but raises the fuel content of the vapor in the tank headspace and creates a more volatile environment.
 

Ski in NC

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This is a good example why you don't want to run your fuel tank low on a CR diesel and risk cavitation, and lack of lubricity of your HPFP.....
Getting air in the fuel flow is NOT cavitation, it is aeration. Cavitation is vapor bubbles forming under low pressure, then collapsing in higher pressure areas. When the bubble collapses, a micro jet of high speed fluid forms and can damage metal. No such risk with entrained air. Those bubbles do not colllapse.

Not that entrained air is good, but it should not cause damage to metal.
 

tdiatlast

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This is a good example why you don't want to run your fuel tank low on a CR diesel and risk cavitation, and lack of lubricity of your HPFP.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujokaEkF8Z0&feature=player_embedded
Do our CRs pump that much volume of fuel? What's the capacity of this "demo" tank?
Very intriguing, but to be truly accurate, wouldn't you want to see a 14-18 gal tank, with the return/take-up fuel lines accurately placed, with fuel flow at the CR spec, and watch the aeration? (Have diesel manufacturers NEVER considered aerated fuel before?)
I had my checkbook in hand, until I thought it through. This is an exaggeration of what might be occuring, but by what magnitude, I don't know.
 

eddif

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If the thing was plumbed so the supply to the pumping chamber came directly from the clean side of the filter, and not from the cam chamber where the wear might occur, the failure would be isolated to the pump itself. Send the cam chamber return flow to dirty side of filter or its own filter. That is the fix. A 1% chance of a pump failure is a risk I will take. Keep the damage isolated.
There are sure more ways to do it than what I suggested.
But​
Cam chamber fuel sent continually to the dirty side of the filter will tend to overheat the fuel headed back to the HPFP (IMHO). Sending the fuel to the dirty side would also possibly warm the HP piston fuel. The original used the return fuel to the dirty side for warming, and when heated the fuel went straight to the tank (I realize you said or other filter).​

You also need to cure the possible clogging of the pea size pressure relief screen with an adapter. Also watch out to see that the passages leading from the bearings see no excessive flow restriction.​

The 2012 Passats use of fuel rail fuel for filter heating seems to be working.​

Just post your suggestions with a flow diagram.​

eddif​
 

eddif

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If the thing was plumbed so the supply to the pumping chamber came directly from the clean side of the filter, and not from the cam chamber where the wear might occur, the failure would be isolated to the pump itself. Send the cam chamber return flow to dirty side of filter or its own filter. That is the fix. A 1% chance of a pump failure is a risk I will take. Keep the damage isolated.
Also the fuel from the clean side of the filter does not have enough pressure to feed the HP pumping piston. A booster pump is after the filter and may in fact introduce some metal particles (although it has a pretty fine screen after the booster pump).

The Passat system uses booster pump pressure from the tank to go through the filter (this may be why the fuel rail overflow will warm the filter).

Got to love all this that takes elephant memory to keep all these pages active. Grace is sure needed to take care of all this.

eddif
 

The_Mike

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So my HPFP just failed while under dealer care for the intercooler kit - 14000 miles. They're fixing it this weekend.

What is my next step? I want to make sure that this failure is logged.
 

El Dobro

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So my HPFP just failed while under dealer care for the intercooler kit - 14000 miles. They're fixing it this weekend.

What is my next step? I want to make sure that this failure is logged.
Well, if the pump's going to go, it couldn't get more convenient than that.
 

Engineers<3Diesel

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So my HPFP just failed while under dealer care for the intercooler kit - 14000 miles. They're fixing it this weekend.

What is my next step? I want to make sure that this failure is logged.

Your name wouldn't happen to be Murphy would it? Man I feel bad for you after having it in the shop for one issue now they get to keep it a bit longer.
 

The_Mike

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Your name wouldn't happen to be Murphy would it? Man I feel bad for you after having it in the shop for one issue now they get to keep it a bit longer.
Tell me about it. I'm looking into NJ Lemon Law. I love diesel and all, but at some point this isn't worth it.
 

Engineers<3Diesel

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NJ huh? Interesting point, do you fill your own diesel or do folks pump for you
(or did the dealer have to have some fuel put in and a possible mis-fuel there?). Also did you use an additive or any bio blends?
 

The_Mike

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NJ huh? Interesting point, do you fill your own diesel or do folks pump for you
(or did the dealer have to have some fuel put in and a possible mis-fuel there?). Also did you use an additive or any bio blends?
While pumping your own gas is illegal here, you can actually pump your own diesel. Though, of course, no one actually knows that and they yell at you if you try.

That said, I have never misfuelled it and have receipts for every fill up I've ever done. Never added anything to the fuel, as I believed that VW at least knew what they were doing. I was wrong: it's just a crappy design. My car is at least Rev 2 of the pump, and it died at 14,000 miles.

Interestingly, every time I've had a problem with the car starting - something that I had originally attributed to intercooler issues - had been on less than 1/4 tank. Usually with at least 400 or more miles already on the trip. I'd wager there's some kind of problem with air getting into the flow and causing metal-on-metal wear in the pump.

I love my car, but I'd never recommend VW to a friend.


Edit - these videos were originally attributed to intercooler issues, the shop says it could be early indications of the pump failing. Is that right, I have no idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JaKqxObF74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmlKSGDpfQM

Ignore my retarded commentary, and the engine noises were much louder. I blame the iPhone mic.
 
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Engineers<3Diesel

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Yep I knew you could pump your own diesel so didn't know if you did it yourself every time or you let the attendants pump it. Hate to hear it and keep us posted on how the fix goes.
 

tsdevine

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At my dealer right now for 20,000 mile service ('11 JSW TDI). Had them show me the filter, looked pretty clean. My manufacture date is 7/10, so my guess is that I have a 2nd gen hpfp.
 

tsdevine

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One other thing worth mentioning, can't remember if it was when my wife bought her sedan or when I got my JSW. But the sales guy said something along the lines that they do something special on the first fill up. The implication that I got was it was to help insure that it's well lubricated out of the gate as that may have a big impact to longevity. (Think of it as a break in.) Could have been BS, but it sounded good.
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
One other thing worth mentioning, can't remember if it was when my wife bought her sedan or when I got my JSW. But the sales guy said something along the lines that they do something special on the first fill up. The implication that I got was it was to help insure that it's well lubricated out of the gate as that may have a big impact to longevity. (Think of it as a break in.) Could have been BS, but it sounded good.
I heard just the oposite from a Service Manager that was replacing our 09 JSW hpfp. No break in required. Conflicting info from two sources is worthless. I have a feeling your sales guy was trying to give you some "feel good" info and that's not saying the info I got from the SM was correct either.
 
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tsdevine

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Like I said.....smelled like BS. But on the bright side, I feel a little better that I didn't see anything worrisome with the filter change at 20,000.
 
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