B100 in Rod's 2009 Jetta

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
Biodiesel in Rod's 2009 Jetta

I'm running B100 in my '09 Jetta, and have been since I picked it up a little over a month ago. She had 243 miles and a nearly full tank of petrol diesel when I took delivery, so the first 700 miles are on that. I now have about 2,600 miles and have experienced no problems thus far.

My plan is B100 until the weather gets cooler, an then I'll have to drop down to about B60 thru the winter. It's pretty mild here in Oregon, and that mix worked well in my '86 Jetta the last couple winters.

I will be doing oil analysis through Blackstone Labs every 5,000 miles, and am tenatively planning on oil changes at that same interval. I will stretch this out if everything looks good in the 1st couple analysis. My primary concern is oil dilution and any wear associated with that, but I'll get lots of help / advice from Blackstone.

I'm doing this because I believe in the long-term prospect of biodiesel helping stem man's responsibility for global warming, and the US dependence on foriegn oil. I realize the present impact that biodiesel has on world food supplies, and this really haunts me. As this technology matures, however, the positive impact should far outweigh the negative.

I'm also doing this because I can stomach the financial risk that comes with the possibility of voiding my warranty for fuel related problems. I view a potential loss of a few thousand dollars a small price to pay for something that I truly believe in.

Naysayers are welcome, but please include links to scientific data to support your views.

I've posted to several forums about my experience, but thought I'd try to consolidate in one location. I'll update frequently including mileage, problems, oil analysis, etc.

Rod
 

Rexking414

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
02 jetta
Dispite what the liberal media and the government is saying for that matter. Foreign dependence on Oil is not causing high fuel prices, Venezuela not too long ago had fuel at 20 cents a gallon. Even if all our oil came from here, it'd be the same most likely. If you go by any oil refineries in the US you'll see you no trespassing signs, federal property, if you catch my drift.

IIRC, the byproducts being burned when you use Bio-D is what gets in the oil and supposedly causes that properties of the oil not to lubricate as well. THere was a couple studies on here, gonna have to dig it up.

Just a side note, one of the concerns from VW for running b100 in the 09 was that the DPF would clog up from the exhaust from biodiesel. Which is different than petro diesel. Not just the fact from previous years that VW was concerned about standards and contamination.
 

TurbinePower

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Location
Upstate SC
TDI
None
Rexking414 said:
Dispite what the liberal media and the government is saying for that matter. Foreign dependence on Oil is not causing high fuel prices, Venezuela not too long ago had fuel at 20 cents a gallon. Even if all our oil came from here, it'd be the same most likely. If you go by any oil refineries in the US you'll see you no trespassing signs, federal property, if you catch my drift.
Mexico, Venezuela, and other "ultra cheap gas" countries have said ultra cheap fuel because it is extremely subsidized, not because oil is cheap or extracted locally.
 

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
Rexking414 said:
Dispite what the liberal media and the government is saying for that matter. Foreign dependence on Oil is not causing high fuel prices, Venezuela not too long ago had fuel at 20 cents a gallon. Even if all our oil came from here, it'd be the same most likely. If you go by any oil refineries in the US you'll see you no trespassing signs, federal property, if you catch my drift.

IIRC, the byproducts being burned when you use Bio-D is what gets in the oil and supposedly causes that properties of the oil not to lubricate as well. THere was a couple studies on here, gonna have to dig it up.

Just a side note, one of the concerns from VW for running b100 in the 09 was that the DPF would clog up from the exhaust from biodiesel. Which is different than petro diesel. Not just the fact from previous years that VW was concerned about standards and contamination.
You miss my point (which I wasn't real clear about) on our dependence on foreign oil. I don't care a bit about price. Fact is, I'd love to see diesel and gas north of $5/gallon to start lowering our consumption. This is one area that market forces work very efficiently as we've seen in the last 6 months or so. My concern with foreign oil is "national security", as we feel a need to protect oil supplies around the world.

The oil additive that is most often cited is ZDDP. The concern is that this additive will be displaced by the BD, thus lessening it's effectiveness. This is a real concern, but the oil dilution is a bigger worry to me. The argument is that BD has a higher flash point than petrol diesel, and this in turn leads to more accumulation in the oil than regular diesel. The new emissions system heightens this concern even more, as it is maybe now more likely that unburned fuel gets to the oil (for both BD and PD).

I'm not very concerned about the DPF getting plugged from BD. The particulate emissions are MUCH lower for BD than PD. I believe the regen events to clear the DPF will be much lower with BD. The dealer told me that they could check the regen occurrances when I come in each 10K miles.

Let me make one thing clear. I want this experiment to work, but I'll pull the plug on it if the risk to hurting my vehicle becomes unacceptably high (relative to my already stated high financial pain threshold). I'm constantly looking for new information that either supports or refutes making this work.
 

Thermo1223

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Location
Easton, PA
TDI
'00 Jetta 5M-'04 JW A5
ZDDP doesn't have as much of a use in engines anymore...it was good additive for bad base oils but base oils have more then matured.

So whoever and wherever that info was pulled was undoubtly from someone who has very little understanding of motor oil. Futhermore ZDDP is also not used as widely because of emissions.
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2006 VW Jetta TDI
An article in Biodiesel Magazine quoted a study from Fang et. al., saying that use of >B5 might cause engine damage. BD in the crankcase oil seemed to decrease the amount of ZDDP found there.

That's the ONLY study out there 'demonstrating' that use of >B5 is a problem in TDI's. And the study did not demonstrate a thing, but inferred a HUGE thing- engine damage.

Fang's got dookey.
>B5 ain't no thing.
Keep proving it Rod, and so will I.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
rodneyh1 said:
You miss my point (which I wasn't real clear about) on our dependence on foreign oil. I don't care a bit about price. Fact is, I'd love to see diesel and gas north of $5/gallon to start lowering our consumption. This is one area that market forces work very efficiently as we've seen in the last 6 months or so. My concern with foreign oil is "national security", as we feel a need to protect oil supplies around the world.

The oil additive that is most often cited is ZDDP. The concern is that this additive will be displaced by the BD, thus lessening it's effectiveness. This is a real concern, but the oil dilution is a bigger worry to me. The argument is that BD has a higher flash point than petrol diesel, and this in turn leads to more accumulation in the oil than regular diesel. The new emissions system heightens this concern even more, as it is maybe now more likely that unburned fuel gets to the oil (for both BD and PD).

I'm not very concerned about the DPF getting plugged from BD. The particulate emissions are MUCH lower for BD than PD. I believe the regen events to clear the DPF will be much lower with BD. The dealer told me that they could check the regen occurrances when I come in each 10K miles.

Let me make one thing clear. I want this experiment to work, but I'll pull the plug on it if the risk to hurting my vehicle becomes unacceptably high (relative to my already stated high financial pain threshold). I'm constantly looking for new information that either supports or refutes making this work.
I'm so flipping happy you want to pay $5 a gallon. I own a home and have to work in another city, and that's a 30-mile one way commute. Unlike you PNW dogooder, my county and cities can't agree on a transit system like TRIMET. If we had a MAX out here, I'd be with you. Facts are your system beats out any other large city's setup (NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago).

I'd switch to biking to a train stop and riding to work *in a heart beat* just to keep miles off the car and enjoy it for longer. But I feel that better than 80% of us can't do that because trolley's and mass transit lines were bought up, decommissioned, and car dealerships put in their place some years back.
 

rosycrown

Active member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Location
CA
TDI
2004 Jetta
I don't remember where I heard it, but I've been told that using synthetic oil eliminates this oil problem. I don't know why it works, but I have 120K on my 2004 using only B100 or B99.9 with synthetic oil. I have never had any problems with my Jetta so far. I don't change to a lower blend for winter, but I live in a mild climate. I use virgin BD not recycled.
 

Thermo1223

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Location
Easton, PA
TDI
'00 Jetta 5M-'04 JW A5
rosycrown said:
I don't remember where I heard it, but I've been told that using synthetic oil eliminates this oil problem. I don't know why it works, but I have 120K on my 2004 using only B100 or B99.9 with synthetic oil. I have never had any problems with my Jetta so far. I don't change to a lower blend for winter, but I live in a mild climate. I use virgin BD not recycled.
IF you don't already run the correct synthetic oil in a TDI your going to have issues as it stands especially a PD.

They require synthetic oil from the getgo.

Synthetic doesn't elminate the problem though, shorter OCI's and costant oil analysis are your only way to know for sure.
 

rosycrown

Active member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Location
CA
TDI
2004 Jetta
After 3 years of testing my optimum OCI is still 15k. 20K is pushing it a bit. This has not changed as my TDI has aged. Also no fuel pump or injector problems with my 2004.
 

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
Mileage Update

Thought I'd put up my 1st real mileage update. I currently have about 3,500 miles and I'm using all commercial B99.

  1. 09/02/08 657 miles 17.0 gal* 38.6 mpg ULSD
  2. 09/16/08 510 miles 14.8 gal* 34.5 mpg B99
  3. 09/22/08 442 miles 12.2 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  4. 09/29/08 510 miles 13.7 gal 37.2 mpg B99
  5. 10/04/08 470 miles 13.0 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  6. 10/11/08 465 miles 13.0 gal 35.8 mpg B99
*Had to add a couple ULSD gallons (accounted for in calc's) to keep from running out.

Overall, my mileage using B99 has been 35.9 mpg, which is 7% less than the 1 tank on ULSD at 38.6. I'll get at least 1 tank of ULSD in the next couple months to continue the comparison, but will keep as much B99 as possible. I'll have to mix in 20-40% ULSD thru the winter, but I'll document that with my periodic updates.

An interesting note: All of the above mileages are calculated. On every fill-up (with the possible exception of the 1st one as I didn't pay attention then), the computer showed mileage 2.0 - 3.5 mpg higher than what I actually got. If this is related to B99, I can't understand how. I'll see if the dealer can "calibrate it" when I go in at 10K.
 

Thermo1223

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Location
Easton, PA
TDI
'00 Jetta 5M-'04 JW A5
rosycrown said:
After 3 years of testing my optimum OCI is still 15k. 20K is pushing it a bit. This has not changed as my TDI has aged. Also no fuel pump or injector problems with my 2004.
Well your certainly ahead of the pack, nice work.

My IP was just weeping a tad when ULSD started coming around but I think my shock treatments of BioD might have had a hand in it as well.
 

CentralFloridaTDIguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Location
Orlando
TDI
none yet
Elevation make difference on TDI?

rodneyh1 said:
Thought I'd put up my 1st real mileage update. I currently have about 3,500 miles and I'm using all commercial B99.
  1. 09/02/08 657 miles 17.0 gal* 38.6 mpg ULSD
  2. 09/16/08 510 miles 14.8 gal* 34.5 mpg B99
  3. 09/22/08 442 miles 12.2 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  4. 09/29/08 510 miles 13.7 gal 37.2 mpg B99
  5. 10/04/08 470 miles 13.0 gal 36.2 mpg B99
  6. 10/11/08 465 miles 13.0 gal 35.8 mpg B99
*Had to add a couple ULSD gallons (accounted for in calc's) to keep from running out.

Overall, my mileage using B99 has been 35.9 mpg, which is 7% less than the 1 tank on ULSD at 38.6. I'll get at least 1 tank of ULSD in the next couple months to continue the comparison, but will keep as much B99 as possible. I'll have to mix in 20-40% ULSD thru the winter, but I'll document that with my periodic updates.

An interesting note: All of the above mileages are calculated. On every fill-up (with the possible exception of the 1st one as I didn't pay attention then), the computer showed mileage 2.0 - 3.5 mpg higher than what I actually got. If this is related to B99, I can't understand how. I'll see if the dealer can "calibrate it" when I go in at 10K.
would like to know the average elevation where you are driving and where Neurot was driving... wonder if it has much effect on the '09 TDI and Bio-D use...

just a thought...
 

OkiTdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2006 Jetta, North Sea Green, DSG, Package 1
Rod,

Do you know why VW limits the 2009 Jetta to B5? It has to do with the DPF regeneration. When the pressure drop across the particulate filter rises to a predetermined value, the soot needs to be burned off. To do this, auto makers put unburned fuel in the exhaust. The unburned fuel hits the diesel oxidation catalyst and combusts. The heat from this combustion starts soot burn in the DPF, cleaning it out.

The biodiesel problem comes because light duty diesels use a post combustion injection of diesel into the cylinder. So after the combustion event, a small amount of fuel is injected to be swept out with the exhaust gas.

Because of biodiesel's properties (heavier and higher boiling point than petro diesel) it tends to mix with oil on the cylinder wall and ends up in the sump. I've actually seen photos of sumps overflowing with biodiesel.

So you're running a real risk of serious engine damage by running B100.

In case you're wondering about my qualifications, I have a PhD in physical chemistry and recently retired after 30+ years at a major petroleum company where I managed advanced fuels research and monitored vehicle trends.

Good Luck--I think you're gonna need it,
OkiTDI
 

jvance

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Location
Private
TDI
Gave it back to VW
OkiTdi said:
Rod,

Do you know why VW limits the 2009 Jetta to B5? It has to do with the DPF regeneration. When the pressure drop across the particulate filter rises to a predetermined value, the soot needs to be burned off. To do this, auto makers put unburned fuel in the exhaust. The unburned fuel hits the diesel oxidation catalyst and combusts. The heat from this combustion starts soot burn in the DPF, cleaning it out.

The biodiesel problem comes because light duty diesels use a post combustion injection of diesel into the cylinder. So after the combustion event, a small amount of fuel is injected to be swept out with the exhaust gas.

Because of biodiesel's properties (heavier and higher boiling point than petro diesel) it tends to mix with oil on the cylinder wall and ends up in the sump. I've actually seen photos of sumps overflowing with biodiesel.

So you're running a real risk of serious engine damage by running B100.

In case you're wondering about my qualifications, I have a PhD in physical chemistry and recently retired after 30+ years at a major petroleum company where I managed advanced fuels research and monitored vehicle trends.

Good Luck--I think you're gonna need it,
OkiTDI
PhD eh? Maybe you should have read the first post in this thread.
 

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
OkiTdi said:
Rod,

Do you know why VW limits the 2009 Jetta to B5? It has to do with the DPF regeneration. When the pressure drop across the particulate filter rises to a predetermined value, the soot needs to be burned off. To do this, auto makers put unburned fuel in the exhaust. The unburned fuel hits the diesel oxidation catalyst and combusts. The heat from this combustion starts soot burn in the DPF, cleaning it out.

The biodiesel problem comes because light duty diesels use a post combustion injection of diesel into the cylinder. So after the combustion event, a small amount of fuel is injected to be swept out with the exhaust gas.

Because of biodiesel's properties (heavier and higher boiling point than petro diesel) it tends to mix with oil on the cylinder wall and ends up in the sump. I've actually seen photos of sumps overflowing with biodiesel.

So you're running a real risk of serious engine damage by running B100.

In case you're wondering about my qualifications, I have a PhD in physical chemistry and recently retired after 30+ years at a major petroleum company where I managed advanced fuels research and monitored vehicle trends.

Good Luck--I think you're gonna need it,
OkiTDI
Do you know for certain that the regen events are triggered by pressure drop across the DPF going above some value? There has been a lot of speculation on various threads concerning this. Some feel it's triggered by pressure drop, while others think it's triggered by mileage. I honestly don't have a clue. Pressure drop is perhaps the better solution, but mileage would be less likely to fail.
 

MBoni

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
OkiTdi said:
Because of biodiesel's properties (heavier and higher boiling point than petro diesel) it tends to mix with oil on the cylinder wall and ends up in the sump. I've actually seen photos of sumps overflowing with biodiesel.
This is interesting. The Biodiesel Magazine article that most of us have read gives essentially the same info that OkiTdi gave us, but implied that the final issue is biodiesel interfering with the protective additive package in the engine oil. The general conclusion was that more frequent oil changes might be a plausible solution.

However, if the real problem is an overflowing oil sump, rather than oil addative degridation, then a different mitigation strategy is in order. I wonder how difficult it is to draw some excess oil from the sump without doing a full oil change?
 

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
MBoni said:
However, if the real problem is an overflowing oil sump, rather than oil addative degridation, then a different mitigation strategy is in order. I wonder how difficult it is to draw some excess oil from the sump without doing a full oil change?
My oil level has not changed in at least 2,500 miles. I first checked it at about 1,000 miles and it was on the high side, but still in the acceptable range. I was a little freaked out (thinking oil dilution), so I started to closely monitor it. I've checked it with extreme care almost every day since then and it's not changing. I'm pretty certain VW delivered the car with the oil slightly high. I'll be doing my first oil analysis in a couple weeks when I hit 5K. That will tell for sure, but I become less worried every day.
 

capflya

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
Fairfield, CA
TDI
2009 TDI (being built)
You could draw oil from the sump no prob... the problem is your oil is being diluted by biodiesel and I assume this would lower the viscosity of the oil?

Now as far as the regeneration... I have not seen a picture of an actual VW DPF so I can not confirm that the regenerations are triggered by pressure offset. I do know that in my GM truck they are(were :D) triggered by pressure differences AND mileage. If the truck noticed that it had not regenerated in x amount of miles it would go into regen. On the GM DPF there are two pressure sensors. One is at the front of the DPF and the other is at the rear. When the rear pressure sensor picks up a lower reading than the front sensor, it will tell the vehicle it needs to regenerate.

Both reasons to regen are needed do to different driving hazards. No matter what anyone says, the car is still making "black smoke" you just can not see it because of the DPF. If some drive with a heavier foot then the DPF will fill up faster and need to be regenerated. On the trucks like mine, people have put programers on them without taking off the DPF. I'm sure many have see videos of a diesel pickup with tuning and they make a lot of smoke. The guys who did this were very sorry. A remember a few reporting they were only able to drive 40-50 miles before they would get a message from the truck saying "clean exhaust filter" and after that the truck will go into "limp" mode and can only go about 30 MPH.

Now in the trucks that the DPF just happened to "fall off" like mine... the post injection is turned off and I believe the oil dilution problem we are discovering is a non-issue.

Disclaimer: I'm not a rocket scientist, I am still in school for my BS degree, I read a lot on diesel technologies and that is how I formed this opinon so take it as you will.

-David
 

capflya

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
Fairfield, CA
TDI
2009 TDI (being built)
There's bolts on there... so it could be put back on if needed... I do get a good 2-4mpg better without it BTW....

I didn't want it to clog when I'm pulling a heavy load up a hill. And the bump in economy was convincing as well... not to mention way lower EGT's... just to name a few... :D
 

robinhood

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Location
Seattle
TDI
99.5 Jetta TDI 5spd
Thanks rodneyh1 for using the b99 in your ride, I know I will when it's time to get a new TDI. Do you have any UOA yet?
 
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