Clutch change procedure G60 and DMF flywheels

PDJetta said:

Just make sure you have the correct socket for the PP bolts. Mine required a 9 MM 12-point socket, I think.

--Nate

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Fortunately, my main sockets are all 12point. Annoyingly though, VW have gone from 6-sided to 12-point on the hub nuts and I had to drive around quite a bit to track one of those down (That size was not in my main sockets).

Rich

clintontull said:

Welp clutch changed and the clutch was weird at first but after 800-1000 miles its back to normal and has seated it self well. NO SLIP what so ever.

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So...does that mean it's normal for it to slip at first? I have a manual A4 Jetta, and I just upgraded flywheel and clutch (to Sachs G60), completing the work about 5 days ago. Since then I've done about 30 miles of city driving and 300 of freeway driving. It's slipping like crazy, especially in the higher gears. Think it'll just go away, or do I need to tear it apart again? If the latter, any ideas on what I may have done wrong?

Also, is it really necessary to bleed the clutch line? If so, why? It seems to me that it's a closed system - you don't do anything to let air in, so why do you need to bleed it?

Yay

Job all done. This has been a cloud hanging over me for the last month so it's good to have it out of the way.

I was surprised to see the flywheel I ordered was different from the one that was on there but soon twigged that what I had previously was a dual mass flywheel and what I'd bought was a single mass flywheel. No worries there and that crack in the flywheel would have been nagging at the back of my mind everywhere I drove so well worth the upgrade. In fact, given the minor difference in price between the DMF clutch kit and the SMF upgrade kit, I would say this is probably worth doing if you're working on the clutch, especially with some of the horror stories I've seen on here.

Managed to get by without any special tools. Securing the flywheel for removing/tightening of the bolts was attained by the scientific method of jamming the handle from my floor jack between one of the teeth of the flywheel and the ground. The engine did move around a little but by applying the torque just right, it was pretty steady. Clutch plate alignment was pretty straightforward. I offered up the plate to the flywheel then put the pressure plate over that. With three of the bolts finger tight, I put my finger through the splined hole and moved the clutch plate around with finger pressure until it felt centered and then tightened the bolts (human fingers are very sensitive. I had a teacher who claimed he could feel if even a single page had been torn from a work book just by feeling the difference in the thickness).

I left both the flanges on. I felt it was worth giving it a try to see if I could get it in without removing them and it was. The trick is you have to lift the transmission a couple of inches higher than its final resting place to get the rear of the transmission over the suspension parts (This was performed with the transmission balanced on a piece of wood on top of the floor jack, giving quite a lot of freedom of movement. Not sure how this would go with a standard transmission jack). Once there, it's just a case of jiggling around until the splined shaft slips in then getting the dowels lined up. After that, it's just the long slow job of putting everything back. An uneventful procedure. I performed standard manual bleeding of the clutch which didn't have any problems other than I found out that what I thought I had purchased as a one-man bleeding kit actually wasn't. Still, I knew I got married for a reason.

With all the mechanicals back together, a test drive showed everything was fine. I tell you, as that car came down off the axle stands, it was like a weight was coming off my shoulders. It was way past dark then so I called it a night. Used the car the next morning then spent the afternoon putting all the trimmy bits back, finally installing my frost heater Christmas prezzie, fixing a puncture and giving it a much needed wash.

Drove it to work today and woohoo fun. Nice to have it back too. i've been driving my wife's new beetle (which she's glad to have back too) which is OK but the Jetta is definitely a nicer drive in my book. The clutch really feels no different to the old clutch, perhaps a touch lighter. Certainly no jerkier. Not really sure of the point of DMFs in that case.

In the end, I replaced the flywheel and pressure plate bolts as these came with the upgrade kit and the transmission mounting bolts which I obtained from the dealer. Not too bad.

Anyway, this has probably been too-much-information but there you go.

Now if only my elbow joints will stop aching. Bench pressing a transmission is a little outside my comfort zone.

Rich

cha$e said:

So...does that mean it's normal for it to slip at first? I have a manual A4 Jetta, and I just upgraded flywheel and clutch (to Sachs G60), completing the work about 5 days ago. Since then I've done about 30 miles of city driving and 300 of freeway driving. It's slipping like crazy, especially in the higher gears. Think it'll just go away, or do I need to tear it apart again? If the latter, any ideas on what I may have done wrong?

Also, is it really necessary to bleed the clutch line? If so, why? It seems to me that it's a closed system - you don't do anything to let air in, so why do you need to bleed it?

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I'm 100% sure it shouldn't slip. Are you sure you had the plates clean when you installed it all? I cleaned the flywheel and pressure plate surfaces as late as possible in the installation process to ensure they were as grease free as possible and was ultra careful with the clutch plate itself to not touch with my fingers (yes, a little overkill I'm sure).

I would think that it's not the hydraulics holding the clutch disengaged (though that's a possibility) which pretty much leaves friction issues. Either the clutch could be greasy or possibly the pressure plate is not tightened down fully. I guess also could be the throwout bearing or the levery thing might not be returning enough. Could also be an engineering defect of course.

I would definitely pull it apart ASAP. My clutch went from slipping occasionally in extreme conditions to completely dead in the space of a couple of miles because my wife didn't know how to handle a slipping clutch (she's a manual newbie). If it's slipping, that's friction and if there's friction, that's wear. On a clutch that's going anyway, that's not an issue but on a brand new one, you could be taking hundreds of miles of use off of the thing.

Course I could be wrong. But I would genuinely not expect a new clutch to slip.

Oh, you have to bleed the clutch cause air gets in when you disconnect the clutch line from the slave. I think you could theoretically do the job by disconnecting the slave from the transmission without disconnecting the line from the slave. However, it seemed to me that without the plate holding the piston back inside the body of the slave, the piston actually comes out of the bore and you could have air enter the system that way. I disconnected the line from the slave anyway so it's a moot point for me. Bleeding certainly wasn't arduous. (Except for the kit I bought the collection bottle was very small and whilst I was watching to make sure the reservoir didn't empty, the bottle filled up and sprayed out brake fluid. Back to my jam jars next time (I would have this time too if I didn't happen to have the kit already in my hand))

Rich

02 NB clutch problems

Clutch will not disengage completly. Have replaced master cylinder and inspected line and slave cylinder and found nothing wrong. Can anyone tell me how for their clutch fork moves being viewed from the timing sight hole on the tranny.I can just fill the edge of the
fork when I stick my finger in the hole.

What are the symptoms of it not disengaging completely? I wonder if the plate could jam on the splined shaft...

Rich

Richy_T said:

What are the symptoms of it not disengaging completely? I wonder if the plate could jam on the splined shaft...

Rich

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Grinding gear in reverse when the car is at rest (because there is no sychro in reverse gear), and hard to get out of forward gears. I specified forward because it is sometimes hard to get out of reverse when the car is in motion.

Actually, I meant for Sami to describe his symptoms in case that might give any clue as to what was causing the problem.

Not disengaging as when the clutch pedal is pushed down, I rev the engine and just fill the trans trying to pull the car forward. This is why I asked about clutch fork movement, just trying to isolate the problem to hydraulic or mechanical.

Well, if you've replaced the master cylinder, you've rebled the system at least once (I do hope). I'd be inclined to suspect the mechanical, maybe the clutch getting hung up on the spline but maybe not. I'm not sure if that would give enough force to cause your symptoms. could be some foreign matter caught between the clutch and the flywheel and pressure plate? It's all guesswork for me at this point.

If you hold the clutch down, does it gradually bite more or is it pretty stable? Have you been losing any brake fluid?

Rich

Clutch stays about the same when pedal pressed down but is getting harder to shift, have to kinda feal your way in gear as the revs come down. Anyway, Thanks for the reply, I am just trying to avoid pulling the trans but its seems that I am headed in that direction. Will plan it along with TB change and manifold cleaning. Yea!

Richy_T said:

I think you could theoretically do the job by disconnecting the slave from the transmission without disconnecting the line from the slave. Rich

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I'm not really sure exactly what you mean by "slave" but I think that's what I did. I disconnected the clutch line at the point where it goes directly into the transmission (i.e. forward of where it zigzags) and didn't disconnect that line from the other end anywhere. The clutch is gripping pretty high (I barely have to push down the pedal to get to the breaking point) so I guess I must have gotten air in there somehow - thanks for explaining how that could have happened.

I'll try to bleed it this weekend (had surgery on my foot on Monday so may not be in the mood to go into the garage!) and post an update.

Thanks for the advice!

[Edit: In order to avoid confusion because Cha$e's issue is almost the diametric opposite to Sami's, I think I'd best specify that this is in reply to Cha$e]

When you activate the master with your foot, it pushes fluid through the line and the slave is what moves at the other end. It's a black thing sitting on the top of the transmission and is bolted horizontally.

The line is held in the slave with a small wire clip. If you unplugged the line at all, air got in and it will need to be bled. If that were an issue in your case though, the clutch would be failing to disengage rather than slipping

Note that if anything, one would expect a clutch to be slightly grabby after a change until things wear in a little. Mine was not noticably though.

I'm starting to suspect that your pressure plate may not have been installed properly. That's something that should be possible to check through the inspection hole. Make sure it is seated on the dowels fully and that all the bolts are as far in as they should be.

Rich

PDJetta said:

They changed the torque value on the engine mount big bolts as well, at some point, too--no more "plus 90 degrees" turn, but with a higher single torque value.

--Nate

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Hmmm, did the "plus 90 degrees" go away on the head bolts too and what is the new torque value for them? Where do you download this update? I have the Bentley Manual and CD too but never looked for updates.

This is good info!

... I'm getting ready to change clutch on an A5. Should I get these special tools or can I get by without them? Anyone have tried and true methods down pat that don't use the special tools? Trying to figure out what I need so I minimize down time.

Regards,

Brian

hutchman said:

Hmmm, did the "plus 90 degrees" go away on the head bolts too and what is the new torque value for them? Where do you download this update? I have the Bentley Manual and CD too but never looked for updates.

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WRT updating your Bentley (CD version) - In your Tools menu there's an "Online Update" selection... As mentioned previously, sometimes they change things only to change them again (or back to original) in a subsequent update...

No change in head bolts that I can tell...

The change PDJetta was mentioning was for the vertical 18-mm-headed engine mount/support bolts for the A4's... it's now 74 Ft*Lbs (no additional turn) rather than the old 44 plus 90 degrees...

Yuri.

Well, I bled it this weekend, and the clutch is no longer "gripping high" but this had no effect whatsoever on the slipping.
So, I guess I'll either redo the whole job (ugh) or pay someone to do it for me. One question - I upgraded from the stock to the G60 clutch, but used the pressure plate torque settings from my Bentley manual - could that be the whole issue here? Does the G60 need the pressure plate torqued down tighter?

I used the stock torque values and my clutch doesn't slip.

a4 jetta transmission clearance shortcut?

I pulled the x frame and my question is this, the clearences from the Transmission to the inside fender wall look really good to me, so good that I am hesitating to pull my flexi clutch line and flexi shift lines(pulled the bracket of course), seems like I could drop and pull back 6 inches pop the new clutch in easily without having to bleed, I am going to take the golf club looking weight off as that seems like the only tall enough object to worry about hitting the engine mount... Think I will leave the black bracket on golf club looking weight as well...Has anyone else done a shortcut like this? and any advise? ps. I am doing on a frame lift with a 5'7 tall tranny jack if this matters thx G

indysoto said:

I pulled the x frame and my question is this, the clearences from the Transmission to the inside fender wall look really good to me, so good that I am hesitating to pull my flexi clutch line and flexi shift lines(pulled the bracket of course), seems like I could drop and pull back 6 inches pop the new clutch in easily without having to bleed, I am going to take the golf club looking weight off as that seems like the only tall enough object to worry about hitting the engine mount... Think I will leave the black bracket on golf club looking weight as well...Has anyone else done a shortcut like this? and any advise? ps. I am doing on a frame lift with a 5'7 tall tranny jack if this matters thx G

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Think it would have been better on the ground than in the air(thats what I said)...anyway after removing the drivers side vertical tranny mount bolts had to lower just enough to get at two bolts near tin vw tranny cover, remove that middle block shimmy it up the post and out, to get horizontal room to back out tranny completely, lower take it all the way out. rock and roll presto...video coming soon!

indysoto said:

Think it would have been better on the ground than in the air(thats what I said)...anyway after removing the drivers side vertical tranny mount bolts had to lower just enough to get at two bolts near tin vw tranny cover remove that middle block shimmy it up the post and out, to get horizontal room to back out tranny completely, lower take it all the way out. rock and roll presto...video coming soon!

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What?

Chemboy said:

What?

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Video coming soon

Torx not a good substitute

Mine started to strip using torx t55 good thing i was mindfull, cause that would have sucked... NAPA can usually get tool next day depending on where you live tool #2306 12mm serrated wrench $7.00
I did not pull the shafts, just outside 8mm 12 points; cv cups left in tranny are a good ergonmic lever too!
As for the Torque of 44 ft lbs my dmf bolts were in there like 80 ft lbs just insane! Thanks for the two year clutch job clutch doctors!

Max_Girth said:

I used this PDF to pop a clutch in my 2000 Jetta TDI this weekend, and I appreciate it a great deal.
I just have one question...
Did I really have to pull the half-shafts?
I pulled them, but I apparently wrecked the r side seal going back together. I'm spewing gear oil now.
The left side popped in easily, but the right fought me for an hour. I presume I tore up the seal.
So, I'll have to get back in there tonight with a couple o' seals handy.

As I pulled the shafts, I fought with why...
It looked like they could stay. Did I miss something?

Also, anybody who wants to do this in their driveway, if your over 40, think twice.

I was blown away to find that I didn't own the big triplesquare for the flywheel-to-crank bolts.
I just knew I had one. I was wrong, and my car was torn all apart in the driveway...
Not good.

Necessity being a powerful motivator, I began to wrestle with what I'd do about it in a small town, on Sunday.
I decided to see if a big TORX would have a prayer...
Surprise! A T55 torx, is an absolute perfect fit!
Just so you all know...

At any rate, do the half-shafts actually have to come out next time? Is it just too tight a fit with them in?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks again for taking a moment.

MaxG

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My 2005 Jetta developed the telltale vibration of a failing DMF so I replaced both it and the clutch with the Valeo kit from BoraParts (awesome service and kit BTW). I followed the instructions in the Bentley manual and the .pdf linked on the first page of this thread. I found the whole process pretty easy and only ran into a couple of snags.

1) Getting the dang shift weight off was a pain until I decided to loosen the nut, place a small (1/2") wooden block under the weight and tap on the nut with a hammer and 1/2" extension bar like this:



2) I decided not to remove the drive flanges from the differential as I didn't want to end up with tranny fluid all over the garage floor. This made getting the transmission out difficult as the driver's side flange kept hanging up on the I-frame and driveshaft. The solution was to disconnect the sway bar bolts on both sides and rotate the bar out of the way. This allowed me to tie the driveshaft up higher so that the flange would clear. This is the bolt I removed:



Contrary to the instructions, I didn't have any problems with the power steering line, I tied it up in a couple of places and it stayed out of the way. It was in the way when I was loosening the fill plug to change the fluid, but that was minor.

I ended up using an engine hoist to remove and install the trans rather that a transmission jack. I've always done it this way and it works great since you can be under the car when re-installing the tranny and you can rotate it freely to get the splines lined up. Getting the trans back in took about 5 minutes this way.

When I got the tranny out, I took at look at the flywheel and was surprised to see that the inner hub that the clutch mates with was off center from the outer portion by about 1/8". I actually had to lever it more to center to get the flywheel bolts out. I can move the inner portion back and forth by hand a little bit which cannot be good. In addition, the actual inner ring that bolts to the crank is loose and rattles inside the flywheel. I'm sure that was the source of the noise and the off center hub caused the nasty vibration. I'm glad I decided to change it when I did.

I've got about 500 miles on the new clutch and it's fantastic! Takeup is super smooth and there's not a hint of chatter to be found.

Thanks to BoraParts for the flywheel kit and rear engine seal, 1stVW Parts for the trans fluid and throwout bearing sleeve, TDI Parts for the Metalnerd triple square socket kit and Harbor Freight for the engine support bar.

Jim

2005 TDI Jetta
109000 miles and counting!

Another way to pull the shift weight is to use a battery terminal puller if you have one. I thought of exactly what you did, but not being able to find a piece of wood that would fit, I used a 10mm socket at that same location. Place it under, then to hold it in place by clicking an extension bar into it, then hammer down the bolt gently with another extension bar.

That's pretty slick, removing the sway bar bolts. I will have to remember that. When I replaced mine I only removed the passenger side drive flange and it was a tight fit getting the transaxle in and out. I do not like removing the drive axle flanges for fear of future gear oil leaks.

I love my G60/VR-6 clutch, except for the chatter on idle. I got mine just before the clutch disc was upgraded with longer dampening springs. I just hope the chatter does not shorten the transmission life.

--Nate

PDJetta said:

That's pretty slick, removing the sway bar bolts.

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I failed to mention that when I finally had that brainstorm I had the tranny hanging on the engine hoist, wedged firmly with no way out, and was seriously considering dropping the subframe. I guess the blind squirrel does find the nut occasionally.

Also, I forgot to mention that replacing the rear engine seal is definitely a good idea, mine was seeping a little bit, very likely due to the vibration from the out-of-balance flywheel.

Jim

PDJetta said:

I love my G60/VR-6 clutch, except for the chatter on idle. I got mine just before the clutch disc was upgraded with longer dampening springs. I just hope the chatter does not shorten the transmission life.

--Nate

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PD, which kit did you get?

I too would be interested to hear what others think about the possibility of increased trans wear with the different clutch + FW.

My first gear synchro appears to have gone out since I did the change. It has not been a huge amount of miles so it's possible it was on its way out anyway.

Rich

mannytranny said:

PD, which kit did you get?

I too would be interested to hear what others think about the possibility of increased trans wear with the different clutch + FW.

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Ok to remove power steering line?

Hi guys - I'm half way through this %$#@! procedure and I'm having a little difficulty getting the proper clearance required to align the tranny back into position. Like DB mentioned in his original writeup, the power steering line will get in the way, and now we are ENEMIES.

My question - is it ok to completely remove this line from the streering gear? It appears a simple banjo bolt is all that's holding it into place. Of course I would have to cap the line but that should be a minor inconvenience. Oh yeah - I've already dropped the subframe so that I have more room to work with.

This picture should clearly show what I'm fighting with. Many thanks in advance!