G12 antifreeze

chevy88

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Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
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2001 Jetta TDI
Is GM dex-cool longlife antifreeze the same as VW G12 as this is what I have beem told by service manager At VW dealership ? I was going to order G12 from them but they just said to use dex cool long life ??????????????
 

paramedick

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Absolutely not! Different formulations that don't play well together. Get the real stuff from the dealer or one of generic equivalents (ELF, Pentosin)
 

ymz

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No, No, a thousand times, NO !!!!!

Either scratch this dealership from your "approved" list, or add this dealership to your "avoid at any cost" list... (or both...)

If they don't stock G12 or G12-Plus, have them special-order it for you... The VW part numbers are G 012 A8F A4 and G 012 A8F A1.

Better yet, mail-order it from one of the Canadian parts suppliers:
http://www.roselandtech.ca/VWPartsA4.htm
http://www.precisiontuning.ca/

All the best,

Yuri.


PS: I just paid a dealer quite a bit of money to flush out the DexCool on a new-to-me TDI Golf... (environmental concerns led me to farm it out...) Of course, I had to take it back to have the job performed correctly... sheesh... if one has to spoonfeed dealership techs every step that needs to be taken one may just as well do things themselves... my motto, but in this case, I decided to be a good citizen with regards to the environment... that will teach me...
 
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Drivbiwire

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Just because they have similar color does not mean they have the same chemistry.

Glad you asked but steer clear of the idiots at the dealer that claim they are the same...as already mentioned they are not.

If the bottle does not expressly state "G-12" it is NOT G-12 compliant or compatible.

DB
 

Drivbiwire

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Here is a good explanation on coolant chemistry types:

Inorganic Acid Technology (IAT)
This is the common green stuff original equipment manufacturers have used for over 70 years. Ethylene glycol is its base chemical, and there are silicate and phosphate additives that make it compatible with copper, brass, cast-iron and aluminum cooling system components. Manufacturers recommended that you change the green IAT antifreeze every 36,000 miles or three years. IAT coolant was used in GM vehicles until 1994. Chrysler used green IAT fluid until 2001, as did Ford (with the exception of some 1999 models that used OAT blue coolant which must be purchased from Ford).

Organic Acid Technology (OAT)
Commonly referred in GM vehicles by the brand name, Dex-Cool or to other manufacturers as propylene glycol. GM introduced Dex-Cool in 1995 as an "extended life" coolant, though most GM car owners and repair shops are finding that Dex-Cool is good for only about three to five years before it needs to be replaced. But because of the additives in the Dex-Cool orange antifreeze, you do not want to substitute the old reliable green coolant. Usually (but not always) dyed orange or yellow so you could tell the difference between OAT and IAT, this coolant has similar corrosion protection to the green stuff; however, it is designed to be slower acting, hence the extended-life moniker. It is made from a propylene glycol base, which makes it less poisonous than conventional IAT for children and pets. OAT, when spilled or lost due to a boil-over, is much less harmful to the environment. In addition to its use in 1996 model year and newer GM cars and trucks, OAT is also used in 1996 to 2001 Audi, Land Rover, Nissan, Mazda, Toyota, Honda, Kia, Jaguar, Saab and Porsche. Manufacturers are now recommending your OAT coolant be changed every five years. OAT coolants are currently readily available from most auto parts stores.

Hybrid Organic Acid Technology
(HOAT)
This coolant is usually dyed yellow but comes in other colors like green, pink, blue, red and orange, which leads to a lot of confusion. One way to know for sure if you are getting HOAT will be by the packaging. Manufacturers often refer to this antifreeze as "global" and will indicate on the bottle that it meets or exceeds the specification "G-05" for most European cars and G-11 or G-12 for Volkswagen and Audi. Hybrid antifreeze has added silicates for aluminum protection and is advertised as having a five-year change interval. Normally, HOAT coolants are specified for vehicles newer than 2002, specifically Mercedes, Volvo, Ford, VW, Audi, Chrysler, BMW and Saab.


The use of OAT and HOAT coolants can extend the life of rubber coolant hoses, because they conduct less electrochemical degradation or ECD than the conventional green antifreeze. ECD is the process by which the motion of coolant and water through your engine creates an electrical charge similar to a galvanic battery. This electrical charge degrades both rubber and metal parts in the cooling system from the inside out. ECD can be attributed as the cause of many premature coolant system failures.

Volkswagen, Audi and other European vehicles use antifreeze that can be blue, pink or red in color. Most of these are available under the brand name Pentosin in 1.5-liter bottles. The pink and red are specifically designed for alloy engines and both meet the required G-12 coolant specification. The blue is also for alloy-based engines, but with a different pH level, and is equivalent to the G-11 rating.

You will find other types of antifreeze available for heavy-duty trucks. Both pink antifreeze (no, not the same stuff as used in the toilet in your camper at the lake house) and red are sold for truck use. These should not be confused with the pink or red HOAT coolants used on imported vehicles because they are designed specifically for trucks. These coolants will usually say "low-silicate" and "final charge" or "fleet charge" on them. They will do you no good in your passenger car because the lubrication and metal protection additives are separate in large truck cooling systems.

So what should you use? Manufacturers will tell you to stick with what is in there. You can have the cooling system cleaned with a coolant filtration system. This is a very popular tool in repair shops today and will recycle your antifreeze. Component chemicals can be re-added to boost its boiling and freezing point and adjust the pH of the cooling system back to specifications. The most accurate tool for measuring OAT and HOAT potency is a refractometer, which is an expensive piece of equipment, so you should have the coolant checked by a service station before deciding whether it should be replaced or refurbished. If you are low on fluid or have a leak, a general rule of thumb is, green IAT is always replaced by green IAT coolant.

Dex-Cool or an OAT product with equivalent specifications is always necessary to replace orange or yellow organic-based antifreeze. For the rainbow of colors of HOAT, your only substitute is the yellow or amber global antifreeze. Global coolant will not change the color of the stuff that is already in there.

If original red, blue or pink antifreeze is desired, you must get these from a Pentosin supplier or your car dealer. Can you run organic coolant in an earlier vehicle? Yes and no. OAT will work if your radiator is aluminum and you flush your entire cooling system with water and completely refill with OAT, but there are some issues with the interaction between organic coolants and lead solder, so using OAT in a copper radiator is not recommended. In short, antifreeze these days is a buyer beware deal. Check your owner's manual for the correct fluid, and read the label on your replacement coolant carefully to ensure it meets with the required specifications.
from Glysantin (Supplier of G-12 coolants)
A new "G12" coolant additive, recognized by its red color, has been introduced during m.y. 1997, replacing the "G11" used previously.
The "G11" and "G12" coolant additives are NOT interchangeable, and must NEVER be mixed. Use only water or "G12" coolant additive G 012 A8D A1 to top up cooling systems filled with "G12."
GLYSANTIN Alu Protect/G30 silikatfrei



DB
 
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JayT

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Wow thanks DBW this is the most coherent blurb on coolant I have read to date.

My local mech added some global coolant (amber) to my car when I had the thermostat replaced and I gave him hell because the color looked different in the reservoir. He assured me it met VW specs, but I was going to have it flushed and replaced with G12. Maybe I should just get a good look at the bottle? Understanding the purpose of the post was to explain to OP the diff. between OAT and HOAT.
 

goTDIcandy

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g12 antifreeze - help!

Hi! Long story short - I took my '05 Golf TDI to the local stealership for non-related warranty-work. ... They replaced the coolant (G12, original), with (according to the invoice) ZVP-000-200 Antifreeze 4 x $6.00 (color looks the same as G12) and 09500 BG/540546 1 x $23.71 (what is this? Invoice doesn't lable it). Labor was $72.24.
My owner's manual states the coolant is permanent; the stealership says it should be replaced every 2-3 years based on problems they've seen.
Does anyone know about this? Will my car be ok?
Thanks for your help!
Kristina
 
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Drivbiwire

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1997 Passat 1Z with 248,000 miles, NOT ONE SINGLE COOLANT CHANGE EVER!

Your dealer is full of $HIT!

G-12 has NEVER shown any signs of problems in ANY engine it is used in EVER.

G-12 is without a doubt THE BEST coolant I have ever seen in any car.

G-12 or G-12+, anything else is simply the wrong coolant for a VW.

The only time you should change coolant is if you replace a water pump, other than that there is no reason to since the cooling systems additives are stabilized. VW systems are sealed and do not vent like older systems (go's back to the Rabbit era and the 1.5L IDI).

DB
 

goTDIcandy

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white 05 Golf
Thanks - but what are <ZVP ... antifreeze> and the <09500 BG/>? Yeah, I know they're full of - , but this started as warranty work, they changed the antifreeze on their own. I'm wondering whether anyone has info of what they say they used.
Kristina
 

Dimitri16V

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Dexcool compatible coolant is not as robust as G12. You won't damage anything by mixing them but the mixtures life will be shortened.

The only time you should change coolant is if you replace a water pump, other than that there is no reason to since the cooling systems additives are stabilized. VW systems are sealed and do not vent like older systems (go's back to the Rabbit era and the 1.5L IDI).

DB
Older VWs didn't vent either, their cooling systems were the same as the newer ones. If they overheat, they will vent from the reservoir cap.
 
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slownsteady

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None - Soon!
DBW - finatastic summary. Thanks for that. I can confirm differing fluids have differing chemical attributes. I have a LR Defender 90 with a tranplanted Chevy Vortec 5.7L in it. I've just had to replace my $750 custom aluminum radiator due to galvonic corrosion after 35k miles. I had been running DexCool as this is what was original to the Chevy - however the AL radiator wasn't part of the original build and as stated, charge migration played a big part in the failure! Lesson's learned and as they say - hindsight is always 20 / 20. I may go to HOAT specifically for this reason.

Bottom line - if using a stock setup, stick with what was provided, flush and refill at the rec. intervals. Coolants do break down over time.
 

Drivbiwire

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slownsteady said:
Coolants do break down over time.
Not true in all cases.

Once coolants stabilize and provided the system remains sealed and airtight (has not overheated where it vented) then the system should not require any flushing or changing of the coolant (specific to HOAT/G12 type coolants).

G12 after about 5,000-10,000 miles reaches that point of stability where the coolant has neutralized any reactions that may occur. As long as that stability is not thrown off, leave it alone.

In the case of the TDI the water pump requires replacement, this should be the only time that the cooling system is drained and flushed and the system refilled. sticking with G12 insures that the original balance of chemicals are maintained as close as possible to the stabilization point to eliminate any risk of system contamination or corrosion.

It's really simple, G12 out, G12 in, to insure system protection and integrity.

I recently got a car in that was running Dex-Cool and the water pumps block pocket was completely corroded and had lost the "freshly machined" look I am so familar with seeing when a car has run G12 since new.

DB
 

HopefulFred

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What does that say about the chances of radiator and thermostat failure? Is it reasonable to say that the other components will last hundreds of thousands of miles if not subjected to the inapropriate chemistry of other antifreezes and hard water? (plastic water pump impellar notwithstanding)
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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Car still under warranty and brought it into the dealer today to again troubleshoot coolant loss. Brought it in to the dealer in Feb. Suggested it might be a EGR cooler leak, as no coolant stains on the floor or belly pan. They claimed to have pressure tested the system and no leak. They added more coolant. The level has dropped about 1/4 inch since. The service writer today tells me I should have the coolant flushed and replaced every year or 12k miles. What BS!

Also concerned as about 1,100 miles ago I threw a CEL and it was for the #2 cylinder glow plug circuit. The dealer agains claimed to troubleshoot the issue and replaced the glow plug. Threw the same code a few days ago- #2 cylinder glow plug circuit. A glow plug which only lasts 1100 miles?:confused:
 

NorthernMage

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Fahr, it probably isn't the glow plug at all but the harness. There were problems with the harnesses early on where they would corrode and throw a code. The ECU is just measuring the resistance difference in the glow plugs and if one of your harness connectors is corroded (or damaged by the dealership during repair) then it will continue to throw a code no matter how many glow plugs they put in.... The other issue is, does the dealer know which plug is #2? IIRC you count from the left facing the engine, not from the right as you might expect..... Go in with a multi meter and measure the glow plug resistance your self, if they are all similar then it is the harness.... give em H*ll....

Meanwhile back at the G12 discussion..... I replace mine with Pentosin G12 during the TB and waterpump change, the waterjacket and old pump looked really clean. Replaced with a metal impeller pump though....
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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Mage:

Thanks for the input. I suggested the coolant loss might be due to a leak in the EGR cooler. Of course the dealer wasn't interested as they know better. I also mentioned a possible harness issue as the culprit, and again, they know it all. Apparently they think we are all a bunch of morons. I'll see what the final report is and then decide the next step(s).

If they can't resolve it, I'll ask to speak with the Service Manager. No satisfaction there and I'll tell them I'm going to VWoA. After that, we'll be in court for a breach of warranty action.

This is the same dealer who told me Castrol Syntec was the correct oil for the PD engine.:eek:
 

NorthernMage

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The worst place you could develop a coolant leak would be around the water pump so just out of curiousity and to forestall the imp of perversity why don't you pop off the timing belt cover and see if there is any G12 down near your waterpump.... If there is then you would get an early, and free Timing Belt change with a new waterpump, which dealers seldom do... This is still a newer car, how many miles on it?
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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Not sure I'd want a dealer to do a timing belt change given all of the horror stories posted about them and TB replacements.

Car has 37,000 miles.

Spoke w/ one of forum brothers from another island who was a VW Tech. He thought it might be the EGR cooler as this was a problem on earlier models.

Guess I could pull the TB cover and check.
 

VFchicago88

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May 6, 2006
service advisors never want to hear what you think the problem is, its very frustrating, they just ignore you or say "yep we will find out"

I think most people on this board would be truly astounded by how much car salesman and service advisors DONT know about cars. They remind me of the kids standing at the oil filter wall saying "oh duuuude we gotta get a fram, my dad used them forever, they are the best!"
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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What a bunch of BS. Dealership just called. Pressure tested coolant system again. No leak. Service writer claims that coolant evaporates and that's why the level goes down. 1/4 inch loss in 2 & 1/2 months? Guess I have to bump it up to the next level. Put on the battle gear.:mad:
 

Dimitri16V

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Fahrfuwerfuelen said:
Car still under warranty and brought it into the dealer today to again troubleshoot coolant loss. Brought it in to the dealer in Feb. Suggested it might be a EGR cooler leak, as no coolant stains on the floor or belly pan. They claimed to have pressure tested the system and no leak. They added more coolant. The level has dropped about 1/4 inch since. The service writer today tells me I should have the coolant flushed and replaced every year or 12k miles. What BS!

Also concerned as about 1,100 miles ago I threw a CEL and it was for the #2 cylinder glow plug circuit. The dealer agains claimed to troubleshoot the issue and replaced the glow plug. Threw the same code a few days ago- #2 cylinder glow plug circuit. A glow plug which only lasts 1100 miles?:confused:
there is a recall about the EGR coolers leaking. the dealer will get paid by VW for doing it. Don't bother with the harness terminals or the glow plugs
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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Spoke with the Service Manager after I picked up the car. He agreed that the coolant loss was not due to evaporation as claimed by the service writer. We had a long discussion and I again mentioned the EGR cooler and/or the water pump. He's having me bring it back next week for another look.

He claimed that if the pressure test shows no leak, VWoA won't pay for warranty repairs unless they can show an actual leak. Same deal even if they can see dried coolant on the EGR cooler or water pump. Unless they can create an actual leak, no warranty coverage.

Anyone know if a pressure test is done under load w/ the engine running? I'm starting to think there maybe a pin hole leak in the EGR cooler as I've noticed the coolant smell after vigorous acceleration. High exhaust gas temps expand the pin hole causing the coolant to leak and after the metal cools down, the hole shrinks and no more leak. If the pressure test is done cold, then conceivable the test would show no leak.
 

Dimitri16V

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Fahrfuwerfuelen said:
Spoke with the Service Manager after I picked up the car. He agreed that the coolant loss was not due to evaporation as claimed by the service writer. We had a long discussion and I again mentioned the EGR cooler and/or the water pump. He's having me bring it back next week for another look.

He claimed that if the pressure test shows no leak, VWoA won't pay for warranty repairs unless they can show an actual leak. Same deal even if they can see dried coolant on the EGR cooler or water pump. Unless they can create an actual leak, no warranty coverage.

Anyone know if a pressure test is done under load w/ the engine running? I'm starting to think there maybe a pin hole leak in the EGR cooler as I've noticed the coolant smell after vigorous acceleration. High exhaust gas temps expand the pin hole causing the coolant to leak and after the metal cools down, the hole shrinks and no more leak. If the pressure test is done cold, then conceivable the test would show no leak.
when the EGR cooler leaked in mine, the dealer did two leak tests and found none. the manager is giving you the run around.
 

jobob307

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Fahrfuwerfuelen said:
Spoke with the Service Manager after I picked up the car. He agreed that the coolant loss was not due to evaporation as claimed by the service writer. We had a long discussion and I again mentioned the EGR cooler and/or the water pump. He's having me bring it back next week for another look.

He claimed that if the pressure test shows no leak, VWoA won't pay for warranty repairs unless they can show an actual leak. Same deal even if they can see dried coolant on the EGR cooler or water pump. Unless they can create an actual leak, no warranty coverage.

Anyone know if a pressure test is done under load w/ the engine running? I'm starting to think there maybe a pin hole leak in the EGR cooler as I've noticed the coolant smell after vigorous acceleration. High exhaust gas temps expand the pin hole causing the coolant to leak and after the metal cools down, the hole shrinks and no more leak. If the pressure test is done cold, then conceivable the test would show no leak.
It's not up to VWoa. If he is the service manager it is up to him. Do you think VWoA comes and checks every car before work i done?
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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Dimitri16V said:
when the EGR cooler leaked in mine, the dealer did two leak tests and found none. the manager is giving you the run around.
I'll give them a last chance to make good. Otherwise, I'll be running them around in Court.:D
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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The saga continues. Spoke with the Service Manager last week after the Service Writer told me the disappearing coolant was due to evaporation. The Service Mgr. told me he would set up an appt. (yesterday) to try and track down the leak. Of course, when I showed up-no appt. was made but they took the car anyway.

About 30 minutes before closing, I get a call from a Service Writer telling me they could find no leak and the coolant loss was "normal". After picking up the car, I went looking for the Service Mgr. Gone for the day. Then went in the the sales section and asked for the GM. Have another appt. tomorrow and the GM promised to put his most experience tech on the case.

VWoA's Customer Care and the dealership's service is so poor this will probably be my first and last VW vehicle.:mad:
 

dok

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Fahr,

I'm sorry to read about your problems with the dealer. I suggest you go ahead with a suit against them and get the ball rolling. Even if they find something wrong, chances are, they will botch the job. Better off with a cash settlement and find a trusted 'Guru' in your area to do the work. I know there are former VWOA mechanics on board, no disrespect to you. I've had multiple problems with Neftin Stealership in Thousand Oaks, CA and don't understand how a company, with such a poor customer satisfaction rating, is still in business. I guess it's the "Dumbing Down of America" phase in Big business(like the "No Billionaire Left Behind" program that was sold as "No Child Left Behind" program")
 

Fahrfuwerfuelen

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Thanks dok

Dealership claims that even if they observe dried coolant ressidue on the EGR cooler or water pump, VWoA won't cover it under warranty unless they can see an actual leak. While the dried residue may show that the part leaked coolant in the past, replacing the part will not guarantee the leak has been fixed. Translation=no warranty coverage.

It would be interesting to see how fast they would be to replace parts once the warranty has expired and the owner has to pay the bill.
 

HopefulFred

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What a bunch of whooey...

Not that it sounds like you need reassurance, but the coolant is not getting out of a properly sealed system. I have never had to add a single drop of cooant or water to mine in 55k plus miles.
 
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