Polo 1.4 TDI cold start judder and blue/white smoke

don_iffy

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Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
TDI
'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Tuesday 9th March 2010 - 1:35pm

Hello everyone!

I am new to the forum i am sorry if i have posted in the wrong area.

I have a VW polo 9n 1.4 TDI and I've had it for around a year and recently it has started to smoke alot when I start it at a cold start. The car judders it doesnt cut of but it is quite shaky, I've been to a couple of mechanics and I've had the glow plugs changed but it hasnt made a difference! I have had it put on the computer and it came up with cylinder 3 misfire does this mean the injetor has gone or the fuel isn't giving out the right amount of fuel?

And i have also noticed that there is a black unit box with pipes coming out of it on the top left which has oil in there. My cousins polo doesnt have oil in there. Please see image to get an idea of what im talking about. The picture is not of my car but if you look at the top left there is a little unit with pipes coming out of it, i have taken the end bit off and it has oil in there.

Please could someone help meee! i would appreciate it thank you !


Don_Iffy
 
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Dodoma

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Mar 30, 2004
TDI
2002 Jetta White
I have been to Slough UK many times. There is a road called Ledger Road. If the black box with four pipes coming out should not be there, then just get rid of it and plug and remaining openings. Before doing, do a detective work: find from where the oil comes to the black box and from there where it goes thru the four pipes. After finding this, just connect those two. You do not say how many miles or km your Polo has. If it is cold, expect to have shakes and white smoke. Do these persists when the engine is warm? The juddering may be related to the diesel gelling. So does it judder after some drive when the engine is at operating temperature? See if diesel fuel conditioner reduces your juddering. Since the computer shows code and the 3rd injector provides information to ecu (computer) regarding injector position needle (3rd injector has built in solonoid), may be replacing this injector will solve you problems. Whether it is a Polo or Jetta or Bora or Passat or Fox, when they are powered by diesel, expect some shakes.
 
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don_iffy

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Joined
Jan 30, 2011
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Slough
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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Thats right Ledger Road off bath road, I dont actualy live in slough about 10 minutes away in maidenhead. Im not entirely sure what that is used for but i shall find out. Oh yeah sorry it has done 134,000 miles on the clock. Thats right it does shake alot in cold start and it does have alot of light blue smoke people walk by and think its foggy lol! When the engine is warm i dont get no smoke or shaking just the odd now and again shudder or little shake. I think i used to wrong word "judder" should have used shaking. Thats true but when i say shaking you can see the car actualy shaking badly.
 
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Dodoma

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2002 Jetta White
shaking

Blue smoke is associated with oil burning. I wonder if you have checked the compression on all the four cylinders.
 

K.I.T.T.

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Europe
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PD75
Turbo seals, piston rings, valve stems amongst other things...

Actually, I think it's to do with the turbo. That black box is the valve block, and houses the N75 valve that applies a vaccum to the WG. If the turbo seals are gone, maybe it's somehow sucking some oil through.

Ash :)
 

don_iffy

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Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
TDI
'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Thank you for the ideas i will be getting all these things checked out over the weekend.

Dodoma: My car definately burns A Lot of oil if i drive it sensibly it will last me around two months and then i have to fill it up because the oil light comes on but it doesnt take much for it to reach the Max mark on the dipstick :S. And i have had it checked out to see if theres any oil leakage but there isnt.

Cheers Ash i will get my turbo checked out I havent exactly been taking it easy on the car the time i have had it. I have noticed i wrote ive had the car for a year my mistake ive had it for 3 years i got the car on 75,000 miles and if im honest i have not taken it easy. I suppose because of it being a 3 cylinder they are not built to be thrashed.
 

raikky

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England, Sheffield
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vw polo 1.4 tdi se pd
its a 1.4 tdi there arnt 4 cylinders just 3. i have a 6n2 1.4 tdi. yes its shakey during the winter. but after about 3 - 4 miles of driving its normal.

its normal for these cars to shake quite a lot in cold weather. mine has!

but since the computer says misifre could be low or uneven compression, blocked injectors, vacuum leak, bad / faulty infectors

anyway, after 130000 miles you need to buy some bg244 and stick that in. im not saying that will solve the problem but it will clear the injectors and remove carbon and well quite alot more. dont compare it to any other product youve used like millers etc this stuff costs around 25 quid. i used it in my car just before winter after its done 70000 miles and it runs much better now.
 

don_iffy

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Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Riakky Thank you for the help and advise I will buy that asap and try that, I think what else could be causing a lot of the shaking is my engine mounts might be gone because the engine shakes hell of a lot when starting in the cold.

I had a compression Air test done and it said it was fine my next step was going to be get the injector that is misfiring replaced and then see if it resolves the issue.

Thank you
 

Conan

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Dec 2, 2010
Location
Denver
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2003 GLS TDI
Does it only do it in real cold weather? It could be that your #3 glow plug is not working, and you're seeing the smoke from unburned #3 cylinder fuel burning in the exhaust until it warms up. Another possibility is a badly worn and/or broken injector nozzle in #3, which is leaking fuel into the cylinder, or at least not spraying it properly. That would account for the smoke and the bad mileage.

Are there any mechanics locally that know TDIs? It's pretty simple (and should be relatively cheap) to check compression, inspect GPs, GP harness, and nozzles. That would be a good place to start.

Edit to add: it might be helpful to post another thread called "Oil in my N75 housing?" or something like that. TDI 101 would get the most visibility, I think. There is another forum called something like "Other VW Group TDIs" that would cover your Polo. There are a lot of high-powered Gurus on this side of the pond (who might not read Polo threads 'cause they're not sold over here)-- surely somebody will have experience with the oily N75. I'm pretty new, but it occurs to me that if the diaphram in the VNT actuator broke, it might suck oil through the vacuum line to the N75 housing. Just a thought. One way to tell is to hook up a computer with VCDS, and cycle the actuator. You need to make sure that the N75 is supplying enough vacuum to work the turbo through the right range of motion.

Good luck!

Lee
 
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raikky

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vw polo 1.4 tdi se pd
don iffy before getting the injector replaced or looked at hang on for that bg244 as that works well. if you can wait.

my car starts very shakey and rough in all types of weather just to let you know. but after startup in cold weather it takes a few miles to get to normal where as in warm weather its much quicker / almost straight away.

since there is oil on the valve block what i told you about the bg244 might not work but you should use it anyway. i know a tdi specailist garage but i forgot the nubmer and website. they charge just 40 quid an hour but they will know exactly what the problem would be. don't bother with wrench monkeys they wont have a clue.
 
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K.I.T.T.

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but it occurs to me that if the diaphram in the VNT actuator broke, it might suck oil through the vacuum line to the N75 housing. Just a thought. One way to tell is to hook up a computer with VCDS, and cycle the actuator. You need to make sure that the N75 is supplying enough vacuum to work the turbo through the right range of motion.
Just a heads up, the 1.4 TDI has a wastegeted turbo. Not a VNT :)

@york, I've achieved over 70MPG UK (So just over 60MPG US) driving 100 miles at 50mph. Most boring drive of my life. Doesn't sound that great, but we have quite short gearing compared to the 1.9.

In town, it's significantly better than the 1.9 TDI.

The Polo bluemotion has the same engine, but a longer gearbox and does 80+ UK MPG (verified) on a long run. That has a pesky DPF too, so with that deleted, I suspect it'll do more!

Ash :)
 

don_iffy

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
TDI
'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Does it only do it in real cold weather? It could be that your #3 glow plug is not working, and you're seeing the smoke from unburned #3 cylinder fuel burning in the exhaust until it warms up. Another possibility is a badly worn and/or broken injector nozzle in #3, which is leaking fuel into the cylinder, or at least not spraying it properly. That would account for the smoke and the bad mileage.

Are there any mechanics locally that know TDIs? It's pretty simple (and should be relatively cheap) to check compression, inspect GPs, GP harness, and nozzles. That would be a good place to start.

Edit to add: it might be helpful to post another thread called "Oil in my N75 housing?" or something like that. TDI 101 would get the most visibility, I think. There is another forum called something like "Other VW Group TDIs" that would cover your Polo. There are a lot of high-powered Gurus on this side of the pond (who might not read Polo threads 'cause they're not sold over here)-- surely somebody will have experience with the oily N75. I'm pretty new, but it occurs to me that if the diaphram in the VNT actuator broke, it might suck oil through the vacuum line to the N75 housing. Just a thought. One way to tell is to hook up a computer with VCDS, and cycle the actuator. You need to make sure that the N75 is supplying enough vacuum to work the turbo through the right range of motion.

Good luck!

Lee

Hi Lee

It is mostly in really cold weather, it does it 99.9% of the time there is that odd chance where it will start up with not much smoke and not much shaking at all. I have had the glow plugs changed 3 times everytime i went to the mechanic they all said straight away its the glow plugs without even looking at it so i kept getting them changed but the problem wasnt going i used VW glow plugs.

wish i had a clue about cars like mechanically lol!

I have been to a mechanic who has worked for VW in the past and he said it could be the wiring loom, injector seals and a few other things but said to me we need to start at the injector seals and get them changed and then if that doesnt work we move onto the next thing but i was thinking hmmmm im probz going to end up spending a lot of money until they find the issue. Do you think i should just get them to do that change the possible causes until the issue is fixed?

Good idea thank you i will put up a thread to inquire about the oil in the N75 Housing.

Thank you for you advice guys I appreciate it keep the advice coming :)
 

K.I.T.T.

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Don, did you literally copy what I put under my "TDIs" (under your avatar) right to the tee lol :p

Ash
 

don_iffy

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Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
TDI
'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
don iffy before getting the injector replaced or looked at hang on for that bg244 as that works well. if you can wait.

my car starts very shakey and rough in all types of weather just to let you know. but after startup in cold weather it takes a few miles to get to normal where as in warm weather its much quicker / almost straight away.

since there is oil on the valve block what i told you about the bg244 might not work but you should use it anyway. i know a tdi specailist garage but i forgot the nubmer and website. they charge just 40 quid an hour but they will know exactly what the problem would be. don't bother with wrench monkeys they wont have a clue.
Raikky,

I have ordered the BG244 on ebay it will be with me by monday hopefully :)

Yeah thats right same with mine after a few miles its fine but i get this now and again where if im stuck in traffic my car starts to shivver/shake again.

Oh really if you do remember the number or website please send it to me because the mechanics around my area are just as you said wrench monkeys lol!
 

don_iffy

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Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
TDI
'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Just a heads up, the 1.4 TDI has a wastegeted turbo. Not a VNT :)

@york, I've achieved over 70MPG UK (So just over 60MPG US) driving 100 miles at 50mph. Most boring drive of my life. Doesn't sound that great, but we have quite short gearing compared to the 1.9.
Lol i know how it feels when ever i have my mum in the car i have to do 50mph on the moterway!
 

don_iffy

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Jan 30, 2011
Location
Slough
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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Don, did you literally copy what I put under my "TDIs" (under your avatar) right to the tee lol :p

Ash

Ha ha i did i though oh that sounds quite good people will be able to see what it exactly is instead of what i wrote before except i need to change the 03 to 04 lol!! :p
 

Conan

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2003 GLS TDI
Just a heads up, the 1.4 TDI has a wastegeted turbo. Not a VNT :)
Thanks. I was guessing that a Polo would have a PD with one cylinder lopped off. Guess not. In that case, the black box wouldn't be an N75 housing, but it does look like some sort of vacuum valve housing.
 

K.I.T.T.

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Thanks. I was guessing that a Polo would have a PD with one cylinder lopped off. Guess not. In that case, the black box wouldn't be an N75 housing, but it does look like some sort of vacuum valve housing.
It is indeed a PD100 minus one cylinder. They just decided (when they were drunk probably) to give us a stupid WG turbo. The car would really benefit with a VNT turbo.

A 90bhp 3 cylinder 1.4 TDI was used in the Audi A2, basically the same engine with bigger (PD150) injectors, PD150 pistons/rods and an all important VNT turbo.

Ash :)

EDIT: the valve block contains the N75 (equivalent) amongst other valves :)
 
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raikky

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vw polo 1.4 tdi se pd
the milage on these things are great. in summer time around town type driving i get 55 MPG. if i do 50 / 50 (urban / extra urban) i can get it to about 65 mpg. if i was just doing motorway driving or in 5th gear all time i would get between 70 - 75 mpg. (as long as my speed is between 40 - 55 ) english gallons of course. 4.5 litres to a gallon here.

don i looked through all my favs but cant find the website. i saw it on a forum once. if i ever come across it ill let you know, maybe they are near you!
 

don_iffy

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Location
Slough
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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
cheerz Raikky would be nice to know of some TDI specialists instead of these backstreet cowboys.

On my lunch break i went to have a look where the pipes were leading to aqnd one of them leads to a bit ontop of the turbo which im guessing is the valve vacum?
 

K.I.T.T.

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PD75
That'll be the vacuum line for the wastegate. I suspect oil is travelling through here to the valve block. Pull it off from the WG and see if there's oil in there...

If it is, I reckon turbo seals, which will also explain the blue smoke. Remove the turbo and get it checked. If it is the turbo seals (or even if there's oil in this vacuum line), I'd get it off the road and fix it (or checked) ASAP. Could lead to a runaway engine (do a search on "runaway". You don't want that to happen).

Ash :)
 

Seatman

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2014 Skoda rapid elegance 1.6 cr tdi
The black box contains the n75 but I think it's an integrated thing that cant be changed on it's own and as for your oil burning, take off the turbo pipe from the intercooler to the inlet manifoldand check how much oil is in there, I think KITT is right enough about the turbo seals and if you don't check it soon it could cost you the engine:)
 

don_iffy

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Slough
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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
oh damm ive been driving like this for god knows how long and i am not sure how long this issue has been going on for wooooooops i betta get it checked out sumtym today or tomorrow thanks for the advice because i would probz be like oh its lasted me this long im sure i can drive it a little more and then one day BOOM there goes ma engine lol!
 

don_iffy

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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
Seatman,

Is there meant to be oil in the turbo pipe that goes to the intercooler?

i think its time i learnt how to do some DIY on my car lol i am scared usually incase i mess something up but im sure the manual will show me a alot of the stuff.
 

Seatman

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A little bit is fine but there shouldn't be much, you get a bit of oil vapour from the turbo which is normal, if you take off the pipe (that goes from the intercooler to the inlet manifold) from the intercooler end and see if oil pours out, if it does that's not so good and would need further cheking but if it's just got an oily smear inside then that's fine and nothing to worry about.:)
 

K.I.T.T.

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My money's on the seals. Do what Niel said, that'll give a good indication whether it's the turbo or not.

I'm surprised none of the garages you've been to haven't suggested this! What a bunch of numpties! :rolleyes:

Ash :)
 

don_iffy

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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
How much do you think it is roughly to have the seals replaced?

I checked the pipes and stuff during the day and the pipe that goes from the intercooler to the inlet manifold has a fair bit of oil more then it is supposed to have you know where the EGR valve is there alot of oil around that ill take pics and put them up tomorrow of what im talking about. lol so theres two issues the turbo seals and the cylinder 3 misfire
 

K.I.T.T.

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I'd get the turbo looked at first and worry about the misfire later. If it's the turbo seals, I've got a hunch the misfire may magcally disappear once the seals are replaced.

Sorry, but I have no idea how much it'd cost to get the seals checked / replaced or where to do it!

Ash :)
 

don_iffy

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'04 Polo 1422cc 3cyl PD75 (AMF)
haha that is a good idea i just saw the "runaway" and oh my god the amount of smoke comes out the engine just gets out of control that happend to my brothers audi 1.9tdi once when he got the turbo replaced but because there was so much oil in the exhaust and pipes the engine went totally crazy and just revved so the mechanic put it in 5th gear and clonked it out lol!

Thanks for the help guys i am going to get the seals and turbo checked out and replace what i need to and then go from there :)

You guys have been really helpful I appreciate it :) i will let you know once i have got the turbo checked out.
 
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