B5.5 4mo BHW swap

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It was. Absolutely perfect. I dechained it at 62k miles a few years back. Other than that it was an all original untouched car. You can see by the looks of the engine even, that still looks new!
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
This is literally my dream. It would make the perfect utility vehicle especially in the winter.

I was going to do the same thing but start with a V6/4motion wagon since the V6 trans is very close to TDI ratios. But then I started thinking about all the FE hits from the slushbox and 4 motion and desided it wasn't worth the work. On the flip side they are REALLY nice cars. Saw a nice 4 motion wagon at the junkyard a few weeks back that was almost in perfect condition. Seems the values of those cars really tanked.

I ended up getting a almost free wrecked MK5 5cyl that I fixed up and now I am trying to figure out how to swap an ALH into that.
 

Reddok

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Location
Hamilton, Ontario
TDI
'00 Jetta TDI 01M, '02 Jeep Liberty Renegade ALH TDI swap
The internal gear ratios on the FAL are 29/41 41/35 and 41/37.

The internal gear ratios on the GMR are 29/34 34/29.

The first two sets of numbers are the front output group. So in the GMR it has a 29 tooth input gear, a 34 tooth idler gear and a 29 tooth output gear. This gives it a 1:1 drive to the 3.09 front differential. The FAL has a 1.2:1(35/29) drive to the 3.09 front differential giving it an overall final drive ratio of 3.73. The rear axle ratio of the FAL is probably 4.10 so multiplying it by 37/41 would give you close to a 3.73 final drive ratio as well.

So even though the gear ratios of the main gears are the same, the output gears are different and therefore the final drive ratio. This will cause an error code. As will the torque converter slippage. You can change the output gears as I have done, but the output housings vary depending on the diameter/number of teeth on the gear, so you may have to change the housings as well.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
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Thanks for the info, Reddok.

So if I am understanding correctly, there is a ratio for each of the gears (5 forward, 1 reverse), then the final drive ratio for the differential in the front of the case, but then this "third" change between the output shaft of the trans and the differential? I assume physically located at the rear portion of the unit?

Sorry for what sounds like a dumb question, just trying to understand. I've never torn into one of these units, never had to.

In other news, I tried plugging the TCM from the BHW car into my [other] AWM car, a FWD sedan. Car didn't like it, cluster went all lit up, like it was in limp mode, and I could not communicate with the TCM at all.

Plugged the original TCM back in, everything works normally. This may just be some incompatibility with the other modules, however... I would still think I should have been able to communicate with it, even if all it had to say was "I don't know where I am, what I am supposed to do, so I'll just sit here and do nothing".

But... I am assuming, possibly incorrectly, that both a 2004 AWM and 2004 BHW B5.5 would otherwise be using all the same communication protocols with all the modules. I cannot imagine why VAG would not use all the same stuff, so that the CCM, SRS, ABS, radio, etc. would all work the same regardless of what fuel goes in the tank.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
You sure it was the connector was seated all the way? If it won't communicate then the TCU wasn't even booting up...
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
Ya, both 04 cars should use the same CAN bus version. I suppose it's possible they moved pins around on the computer but I highly doubt it.

-J
 

Reddok

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Location
Hamilton, Ontario
TDI
'00 Jetta TDI 01M, '02 Jeep Liberty Renegade ALH TDI swap
Thanks for the info, Reddok.

So if I am understanding correctly, there is a ratio for each of the gears (5 forward, 1 reverse), then the final drive ratio for the differential in the front of the case, but then this "third" change between the output shaft of the trans and the differential? I assume physically located at the rear portion of the unit?
So there is the regular transmission gears 5 fwd, 1 reverse, then a reduction gear, then the final drive (ring and pinion) for the front diff. There is also a reduction gear for the rear differential as well.
 

oilhammer

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Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
So there is the regular transmission gears 5 fwd, 1 reverse, then a reduction gear, then the final drive (ring and pinion) for the front diff. There is also a reduction gear for the rear differential as well.

OK, I understand now. Thank you. So the reduction gear ratio and the final drive ratio may not be the same front and rear as well, correct?

This is looking more and more like I will need to convert it to a manual. Was hoping to do a quick engine swap along with a couple modules and call it a day. :(
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
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Here is the crashed car still on the trailer. I have to get some more pieces out of it.



Here's my Sport Utility Variant, patiently awaiting its TDI transplant (and probably leaving an oil stain under it from the leaky AWM :( ):



The Vanagon behind it would also like a TDI transplant, but it is already a diesel (and a manual :p ) so that might be a bit easier! :)
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
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Perhaps you could find someone who can tune the trans computer.

-J
I was thinking about that. In my [non expert] analysis, it would be a matter of overlaying the expected gear ratio values from the FAL TCM into the GMR TCM.

I am still scratching my head over the lack of communication I had when I put it in this other AWM car. KWP2000 is the communication protocol that VCDS shows for both of them.
 

Reddok

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Location
Hamilton, Ontario
TDI
'00 Jetta TDI 01M, '02 Jeep Liberty Renegade ALH TDI swap
Just swap the BHW trans in and run without the 4motion. You could always find the appropriate 4motion auto trans and TCU from Europe later.

You need to get the wiring diagrams for both TCUs and compare them. Any chance the BHW one was water damaged? They are known to have that happen sometimes.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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No, no chance. It was a running driving car when it was crashed. Car was near perfect, never any water intrusion of any kind. I have taken care of it since it was new.

I will look over the diagrams at lunch today, if I have time. Busy day ahead of me. And the other Volkswagen guy left us, so I am all alone now. :(
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well it looks like dumbass Alldata doesn't have any wiring diagrams for the TCM and harness. And that's why we call it "Somedata". :rolleyes:

They do have a pinout for the SST VAG1598/20 breakout box.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Brian, email me. I've downloaded a massive amount of VW repair data from ERWIN (I paid for it... comes with "re-printing rights").

The wiring/component locations PDF is 958 pages of stuff for the B5/B5.5. About a 40 MB file... But, it's searchable. All in DIN standard, of course... just like a Bentley manual, as ERWIN was exactly where Bentley was getting their information from and mostly reprinting it verbatim...
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
From a quick glance, they actually put all engines in the same wiring diagram for the auto trans. There are a couple minor production differences through the years, so depending on the month/year of the receiving car's production, that could be part of the issue, but no real difference on the TCM wiring side when comparing different engines.

While DIN standard diagrams are a bit dizzying to go through, following tracks onto different pages and the like, the amount of information in them is pretty excellent. In particular I like how every terminal/connector on a wire track is listed with information on where that connector is located, what color it is and what pin number the wire is going through.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I wonder if the bricked ABS controller was fruiting up something on the car I tried the GMR TCM in. I had it unplugged because when they are plugged in the generic OBD communication our state tester uses will not communicate. VCDS of course has no problem with the dead controller on the CAN bus, but I guess the side that the generic part works with gets flaked out.

Not sure why that would have anything to do with anything... and of course I have already put that car all back together now (save the still bricked ABS module :rolleyes: ).

I really need to sell some of these extra cars, LOL.... and I am maybe going to buy this 2010 Wolfsburg Jetta with a lunched CCTA engine that has been left here for over a month, too.
 

k_harley

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Location
Lowell, MA
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2005 Audi S4, 1997 Audi A4 Race car, 2004 Passat TDI 6MT 4motion
I just got a 2004 Passat 1.8t 4motion to PD130 swap running and on the road. I made mine into a 6 speed 01E.

The only thing I need to figure out is the wiring for the J17 fuel pump relay.

There are only 2 wires you need to change in the plenum connection to get the engine to fire up.
 

2002tdi

Vendor
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May 8, 2011
Location
NORTH BALTIMORE OHIO
TDI
2012 jetta premier DSG
sell me the 2010 jetta! i Love doing the CCTA head swaps. Down to a science at this point. i did 3 last month!

edit... in for updates
 

Sprocket

Sprockette's hubby
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Location
MI
TDI
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Eco Diesel, 2005 Passat Silverstone Grey, 1996 Passat Storm Grey
Here is the crashed car still on the trailer. I have to get some more pieces out of it.

Here's my Sport Utility Variant, patiently awaiting its TDI transplant (and probably leaving an oil stain under it from the leaky AWM :( ):

The Vanagon behind it would also like a TDI transplant, but it is already a diesel (and a manual :p ) so that might be a bit easier! :)
Nice wheels on the trailer!
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Brian, I have some A4 Quattro driveline parts available if you want to convert to 5 speed manual - gearbox, rear diff and subframe assembly, and axles. I don't have a spare 3rd pedal or shifter though. PM me if you want it, maybe I'll trade you for your free Beetle if you still have it :p If I remember correctly the Audi donor was a 1.8t gasser.

Brian, what all do you have? The more I think about this, the more I think the manual conversion route is the way to go. I wanted to keep it an automatic because I wanted to keep the cost down and work with what I have, and since the current slushbox is in perfect working order and has been well maintained, I thought it best to just stay the course with it.

But if it is just going to be too much of a headache to make the gas trans work with the diesel.... and I am certainly not about to try and source a Euro diesel auto trans :rolleyes: I may as well just go manual.

Tall gearing is not a priority, as this vehicle is not likely to be going on many long distance Interstate trips anyways.
 

Mikkijayne

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Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Devon, UK
TDI
Audi S8
Bear in mind that the rear end of a B5 A4 is completely different to a B5 or 5.5 Passat. The Passat is actually based on a narrowed C5 A6 floorpan so only the gearbox would be of any use. You'd need a propshaft from a manual B5.5 4mo and could use the rear diff from a C5 A6 if yours is the wrong ratio.

In theory its possible to put the guts of a long-nose B5 A4 diff in to the casing of a short-nose B5 /5.5 Passat / C5 diff since they are derivatives of the same stuff but I've never tried it.
 

oilhammer

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Dec 11, 2001
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Depends on the year though, doesn't it? I know the rear suspension is not always the same, too. Mine has the short struts that bolt up to a flange from the bottom, but some of the Audi models have the long ones that bolt up to that tall bracket that goes all the way to the top of the wheel arch.

I've honestly never paid that close of attention. It always seemed to me that the Volkswagens got leftover Audi parts, and the Volkswagen never did get the IRS on the FWD cars that the Audi got in the early 2000s.

Passat has a slightly longer wheelbase, too, doesn't it? Closer to the larger A6?
 

Mikkijayne

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Devon, UK
TDI
Audi S8
Yes, the Passat does have a longer wheelbase. Its quite surprising when you compare the rear legroom in a Passat with an A4 when they appear to be the same size car

They are all the same up front, with the C5 just being a bit wider up top and using the outer lower mounts on the common subframe. The Passat is a mongrel though with the B5/C5 common front end, on a narrowed C5 floorpan with narrowed C5 rear suspension. It also shares much more electrical stuff with the C5 than the B5.

Passat B5 Syncro / B5.5 4mo / C5 A6 Quattro



B5 A4 Quattro:

 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Ah, yes, now I realize what you are saying. Again, never paid that close of attention I did not realize it was that cut and dried and consistent over the model years.

I do remember having the conversation with my brother regarding wheelbase. As he had a used Audi A4 sedan when I bought my [first] B5.5 Passat, and I told him it was essentially rolling on the same basic platform only mine was longer (wink wink :p ). He could not believe that a mere Volkswagen was longer yet less expensive than the Audi, so he had to get a tape measure out.

But the real difference is very pronounced in the rear leg room department. However the Audi feels better and more "tossable" in the turns, even my brother's that was an older FWD one that still had the same twist beam style rear axle.
 
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