New project: Golf Mk4 PD TDI 4motion 6-speed

Rub87 said:

Dave, do you know if there is something with relatively small frame dimension that flows around 350hp of air at pr 3.5 minimum without falling of the compressormap with a vnt turbine housing? so somethink like a 2260vk, but one size bigger

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None as an out-of-the-box solution that I'm aware of. But there is a 53mm VNT turbine in a GT25V frame size that should bridge the 50mm of the GTB22V and 60mm of the Hino's GT35V nicely. If this comes as a 3rd-generation GTB, awesome! Unfortunately, I don't know from what application this turbine comes. As for the compressor, you might want to look into a 71mm, ~50 trim, small A/R ratio and ported shroud..... Don't expect to generate full boost clear of the surge line much below 2500 RPM though... for 350 HP, you'd want your compressor to flow to about 40 lb/min.

The below compressor supports very high PR, but the 58 trim is too large that at 40 lb/min @ PR=3.5, you're right at the surge line. A 48-50 trim might be perfect if it were available as a GTX.

GiGGer said:

Nice project...exactly what I wish I would have built...but no 4motion here but the R32...

R32 brakes are awesome. Very heat resistant and fits on 17" Longbeach. Love them with my PD130, braking was a must.

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They have a realy good pedal-feeling but with a "fast" car with 17" on track you need break-cooling for sure! Mine got way to hot a few times. Fabian is going to use 6pot calippers, that is going to be sick

Fab/Ruben what do you think about that BorgWarner EFR 6258? To laggy? Atleast for 2,016V I think it looks just awsome(depending of what you like to use the car for ofcourse)

Theo

it's pure sex.. sometime ago I put some number into the calculator they have and with a 60mm turbine it had boost>emp between 3000 and 5500rpm with I think 350hp max and 300hp at 4500rpm.. so basicly uoi only need a vnt15 to get it spooled.. or use it for a track car

I must say I haven't seen the Borg Warner EFR turbos until Theo mentioned them. On paper the compressor looks like an ideal size for what Ruben is looking for. Maybe pair that with a BV50 hot side off a 3.0 TDI?

Ruben mentioned them some week ago and in my eyes that 6258 looks great.

I have limited knowledge about turbos, but how does the pretty high 65 trim(if I count correct) act on our 1,9/2,0 litre engines?
Most "diesel" turbos have much lower trim.
Just looking on the compressormap it looks like for example a heavy fueled 2,0 16VTDI should be spot on, but what should be the difference in this case if Trim was lets say 50 instead? Maybe the compressormap should be completly different?

//Theo

TDIMeister said:

I must say I haven't seen the Borg Warner EFR turbos until Theo mentioned them. On paper the compressor looks like an ideal size for what Ruben is looking for. Maybe pair that with a BV50 hot side off a 3.0 TDI?

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bv50 vane ring only accepts 50mm wheel, smallest wheel available on the erf is 55mm :/

maybe we can get away with that 53mm gt25v housing you mentioned

No, what I mean is make a hybrid turbo using a BV50 VGT hotside and use the compressor wheel and housing off an EFR 6258. So you're still staying with a 50 mm turbine wheel.

If you find or make a Frankenstein 53mm VNT3 turbine, great!

Thanks for great info about compressors TDIMeister...
But should 50mm turbine be "enough" for this relatively big compressor? Borg says the 58mm one is the best. I understand and know that variable hotside spools faster, but is it also stronger than non-variable turbine with the same size?
It feels like this compressor gets a different behaviour with 50mm turbine instead of 58? I'm just thinking loud

Sorry Fabian for off topic, but might be intresting.

//Theo

The question as to whether a 50mm turbine is big enough is best answered by people who have them installed in their cars and can give some feedback on the EMP/boost ratio, particularly at the top end. 58mm will tend to spin slower for a given mass flow and inlet pressure ratio than 50mm. The engine might run beautifully at high load and high RPM, but a smaller VGT-turbine will be far more pleasant to drive on the street and may not give up too much up top. Turbine maps would tell me a lot but these are even harder to find than compressor maps. What I do have suggest that the B-W is basically the same as the Garrett of the same size.

Nice turbo matching program for the BW EFR series (including turbine maps).
http://www.turbodriven.com/performanceturbos/matchbot/index.html

Thanks moe!

best boost emp ratio you find with 60mm turbine between 3000 and 5500rpm.. 2260vk is good till 3500rpm, after that emp is king :/ (2.3bar boost)

You might then need to look for a way to package a larger frame size turbo in there, Rub!

Why don't use bi-turbo solution?

Sorry for little more off topic...

I have played with the matchbot with my not very realistic Engine analyzer pro tdi model and heres my results:
rpm ve comp eff BSFC boost EMP power
2500 78 57% 0.322 5psi 3.6psi 68.5hp
3000 83 63% 0.326 10psi 6.9psi 107.3hp
4000 95 65% 0.338 36psi 28.6psi 319.7hp
4500 95 72% 0.352 37psi 29.1psi 346.9hp
5000 91 73% 0.374 38psi 31.1psi 350hp
5500 87 73% 0.390 37psi 32.6psi 346.6hp

These numbers are calculated with bw efr turbo with 62mm compressor (62K80) and 58mm 0.92 A/R turbine. AFR is 17.

Not bad...

not bad, but sucks so bad as a single unless you use it at a track.. you have 100p at 3000rpm, I have 250hp at 3000hp with a gtb2260.. offcourse at 4000rpm things look alot brighter

Golf MK4 PD 4motion

Fab
We in the US of A are envious of your having access to 4Motion Golfs
Good luck with your project

Rub87 said:

Dave, do you know if there is something with relatively small frame dimension that flows around 350hp of air at pr 3.5 minimum without falling of the compressormap with a vnt turbine housing? so somethink like a 2260vk, but one size bigger

Click to expand...

I have a map that matches the below specs (but that doesn't mean that very map corresponds to the compressor used in the specific BMW application. And sorry, but I am not at liberty to disclose it.

gt2260v bmw 330d e90 233 bhp
intake:
inducer: 44.5mm
exducer: 60mm
AR .61(it doesn't say on the case)
exhaust:
inducer :50mm
exducer:45mm

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After some calculation, I can get 317 HP @ 4750 RPM with a 40 PSI boost and 17.5:1 AFR. Water/MeOH injection would help further.It is however, right at the bleeding edge of the map (PR=3.9, 0.27 kg/s m_corr), plus the turbine is still a restriction. If you can find the aforementioned 53mm turbine in a 3rd-gen VNT package (with a higher A/R ratio and trim to boot?), that would help a ton.

So a GTB turbine and BMW 60mm compressor = Win?? lol

Wow, so many replies... I caught some virus or so a couple of days ago and wasn't online here at TDIClub for a while...

First of all, thanks to everybody that helps discussing that turbo issue. I am honestly lacking the detailled knowledge so I very much rely on Ruben A few days ago I sources a Hino turbo in the US for 300 $. Unfortunately the seller couldn't really tell me the numbers on the plate, but it is from a 2005-2007 J08E engine. Should be something in the GT30-scale, I hope. In case it is too big for my 2.0, I still can mount it to our A4 3.0 TDI. Considering that, a BV50 might be available then That Hino turbo is currently being shipped to Frankencar as the seller won't ship to Europe. Frankencar probably will be able to read the numbers, take a few pics or even measure diameters.

To answer some of the questions in the previous posts:
- intake manifold: I am not sure if the PD150 intake manifold is good enough for my needs. There is still the option of using a D24-manifold and modify it.

- brakes: after I test-fitted my calipers with the adaptors I already have, I realized the distance caliper-center of wheel hub is too big for the use of 334x32 discs from the R32. Using any bigger rotors will create ridiculously high costs as there are ony custom rotors available. So I got a set of slightly different adaptors that will fit perfectly when using the R32-rotors.

Some news about the pistons: my VW Crafter (163 bhp) pistons have been modified and are on its way to my adress. Mods taken so far: oil cooling channel / squirter holes have been re-located to match the 4-cyl squirter locations. The old holes have been closed using a "plug" that has been pressed in under nitrogen plus they have been physically locked. The shape of the omega bowl has been re-created to match the spray pattern of PD injectors. Valve pockets have been deepened by 0.5mm. All these mods have been taken on a 5-axis CNC-machine. Of course we took a 3D digital image of the modified pistons so we can reproduce them anytime easily. BTW, the same pistons will be used in a friend's project which is supposed to use a compound of a compressor and a bigger turbo. But I don't know about the details yet.

As a conclusion: we got some snow here in Germany and really cold weather. And what can I say - it was the best decision to get a 4motion Last time I had so much fun driving on a snow-covered road was when I had my old Audi S4 C4 20VT...

Greetz,

Fabian

should have kept the S4

Rub87 said:

should have kept the S4

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Tuned TDI Q Is much more fun in snow

I have a C4 S4 20V I5 now Had a C4 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 in Germany. Nice cars, these, but I agree, even better to have this chassis with a powerful TDI. I'm looking...

Christmas has arrived early for Ruben...

Fab176 said:

A few days ago I sources a Hino turbo in the US for 300 $. Unfortunately the seller couldn't really tell me the numbers on the plate, but it is from a 2005-2007 J08E engine.

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Maybe this one?

Complete Specs For OE Part Number S1760-E0190
Part Number Garrett Part Number 777559-5001S
Direct Service Replacement -
OE S1760-E0190
Turbo Model GT3271LS
Technology Wastegate
Actuation Pneumatic
Vehicle Classification CV Off Highway
Manufacturer KOBELCO
Model SK350LC-8 Hydraulic Excavator
Year 2007
Fuel Diesel
Engine Manufacturer HINO
Code J08E
Emission Regulation EPA Tier 2
Displacement (L) 7.7
Cylinders 6
Power (KW HP PS) 197 KW264 HP268 PS@ 2100rpm
Torque (Nm LB/Ft) 1128 Nm

TDIMeister said:

Maybe this one?

Complete Specs For OE Part Number S1760-E0190
Part Number Garrett Part Number 777559-5001S
Direct Service Replacement -
OE S1760-E0190
Turbo Model GT3271LS
Technology Wastegate
Actuation Pneumatic
Vehicle Classification CV Off Highway
Manufacturer KOBELCO
Model SK350LC-8 Hydraulic Excavator
Year 2007
Fuel Diesel
Engine Manufacturer HINO
Code J08E
Emission Regulation EPA Tier 2
Displacement (L) 7.7
Cylinders 6
Power (KW HP PS) 197 KW264 HP268 PS@ 2100rpm
Torque (Nm LB/Ft) 1128 Nm

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That will be too big as a single...maybe an LP for a double

According to the seller it is a VNT. But hard to tell if you just have some pics and no confirmed numbers. BTW, I realized that shipping even within the US seems to be really insane - the turbo will be shipped within CA which will take 7 days And I was wondering why that other turbo I sent to the US took almost 4 weeks to arrive...

on the (bad) pics it definatly looked like a vnt turbo as it had the electronic actuator.. Fabian maybe you can post the pics here? curious to find out the dimensions of the turbine wheel..

@ David, from now on I'll call you Saint Nicholas =)

@Ruben: As soon as I have any (better) pictures, I will post them here