Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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kjclow

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Not bad but no where near the 100 miles I should be riding on the weekend to get ready for another RAGBRAI. Too much yard work! Well that and stopping for a beer at the halfway point.
 

bwilson4web

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The density of SuperChargers supported +700 mi trips between Huntsville AL to Coffeyville KS and a second one to Richardson TX (aka., Dallas.) The first trip included using an RV Park for a full charge, ~5 hours, the day before returning home. Ours is a Tesla Standard Range Plus Model 3, 240 mi EV, that replaced our 2017 Prius Prime.

Cross country, the operational scenario is:
  • Night before, fully charge battery for first leg. Around town we only charge to 85% to leave 'headroom' for regenerative braking.
  • SuperCharger-to-SuperCharger - do a biology break and leave wife at bar/restaurant/diner. Put car on charger and walk back with dogs. After 20-30 min., walk back to car to load up wife and dogs. Shorter SuperCharger-to-SuperCharger legs are the fastest and cheapest way to drive. Charge with a ~30 mile reserve to the next SuperCharger and adjust speed as needed to keep at least 10 miles in reserve.
  • Over night, camp at an RV Park with 30-50A outlets or a hotel/motel with a 208-240 VAC, L2 charger. Let car fully charge, ~5 hours, for the next day's first leg. We use "Dog Mode" to make the car a climate controlled, dog kennel with water, food, and a poop pad.
  • Midday or Supper break, ~1 hour, let the car fully charge while leisurely enjoying a meal.
  • At 65 mph, our SuperCharger electricity costs run about the same as a 100 MPG car with $2.50 gas. Weather and detours can reduce it to ~75 MPG.
  • AutoPilot changes long distance driving to just sitting in a comfortable chair, listening to tunes, chatting with your wife, and watching the world go by. The "dead man" prompt requires torquing the steering wheel every minute or so. Sad to say, it is illegal to drink and AutoPilot drive. <SIGH>
Driving a 240 mi EV on a cross-country trip is different and interesting for the technically skilled. Certainly an EV is not for everyone as there are EV deserts West of the Rockies and across the Great Plains. Fortunately there are multiple SuperCharger routes running coast-to-coast. Happily, the Pacific Coast and East of the Mississippi have plenty of SuperChargers.

Bob Wilson

ps. After 70 days, we have over 7,300 miles in our Model 3. We're on our 3d, software version and each has added functions and improved others. Kinda strange in a nice way to buy a car and it keeps getting better the longer you own it.
 
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GoFaster

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Your last bullet point suggests that you are complacent about AutoPilot; the nature of its operation leads to a false sense of security. At a minimum you have to be aware of the circumstances that have led to crashes (some fatal): lane-splits, construction zones, temporary lane markings, cross traffic (it has driven itself underneath the trailer units of cross-traffic tractor-trailers at least twice with fatal consequences; no one knows how many other close-calls there have been), stopped vehicles in the same lane. It does not do defensive-driving at all, and it does not do "courtesy" at all. If there is a vehicle approaching in a merging on-ramp, it does not take courteous preventive action such as speeding up, slowing down, or changing lanes to allow the merge to be done without conflict. It won't reposition itself within a lane to avoid potholes, objects in the road, improve clearance to adjacent large vehicles in the next lane, staying out of the blind-spots of other vehicles, etc.
 

bwilson4web

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The label "complacent" is inaccurate since I have one in my hands and 1,000s of miles of experience:
Your last bullet point suggests that you are complacent about AutoPilot; the nature of its operation leads to a false sense of security. At a minimum you have to be aware . . .
In surveys at Tesla forums, we're finding:
  • 80% are OK with AutoPilot and use it frequently (I'm in this group)
  • 20% don't
I'm in the 80% but have also documented AutoPilot short comings:
There are others generally associated with poor or ambiguous lane lines. The irony is some of the Tesla fanboys didn't like my AutoPilot investigations and reporting. But they really went 'bat guano crazy' when I explained why I am so sold on AutoPilot.

AutoPilot saved my wife, her dogs, and me five times on a return trip home. Due to an unexpected chain of events, I was off my sleep apnea therapy for 10 days. We were on a barren stretch of road about 8 AM when I suffered five 'micro-sleep' events.

Normally 'micro-sleep' events end badly with either drifting into opposite lane traffic or off the road into the ditch. Instead, the car stayed in its lane and adjusted speed to not hit other traffic. At the nearest town 5 miles down the road, I took a bathroom break, coffee, and a stretching walk around. Then I drove the rest of the way without incident.

Knowing AutoPilot saved you and your family from five potentially serious accidents convinced me that it works. Sure, AutoPilot is not perfect but it is better than a +90% solution (much better than Toyota's TSS-P.) The remaining <10% are easily recognized and handled by manual override.

Bob Wilson
 
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kjclow

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I heard a comment on this that it was good marketing blitz but no real content. Reminds me of when VW started the introduction of the clean diesel. Remember the A3 passing all the cars stopped by the "green" police? Nothing specific about the car of the engine, just hype on the green. I'm sure VW wouldn't like to hear anyone comparing their new E commercial to the clean diesel campaign.
 

nicklockard

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The label "complacent" is inaccurate since I have one in my hands and 1,000s of miles of experience:

In surveys at Tesla forums, we're finding:
  • 80% are OK with AutoPilot and use it frequently (I'm in this group)
  • 20% don't
I'm in the 80% but have also documented AutoPilot short comings:
There are others generally associated with poor or ambiguous lane lines. The irony is some of the Tesla fanboys didn't like my AutoPilot investigations and reporting. But they really went 'bat guano crazy' when I explained why I am so sold on AutoPilot.

AutoPilot saved my wife, her dogs, and me five times on a return trip home. Due to an unexpected chain of events, I was off my sleep apnea therapy for 10 days. We were on a barren stretch of road about 8 AM when I suffered five 'micro-sleep' events.

Normally 'micro-sleep' events end badly with either drifting into opposite lane traffic or off the road into the ditch. Instead, the car stayed in its lane and adjusted speed to not hit other traffic. At the nearest town 5 miles down the road, I took a bathroom break, coffee, and a stretching walk around. Then I drove the rest of the way without incident.

Knowing AutoPilot saved you and your family from five potentially serious accidents convinced me that it works. Sure, AutoPilot is not perfect but it is better than a +90% solution (much better than Toyota's TSS-P.) The remaining <10% are easily recognized and handled by manual override.

Bob Wilson
I hate calling people out anymore on the internet, and you are probably a really nice man, but please consider giving up your driver's license. It sounds like you have a very serious medical issue which severely impacts your abilities to reliably operate a vehicle safely. Tesla's 'autopilot', no matter how 'gee whiz' should not be used as a crutch. You could get your family and others killed.

Maybe it's time you sat back and relaxed and let someone else do the driving?
 

bwilson4web

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. . . but please consider giving up your driver's license. . . .
That is not going to happen but perhaps we can use this opportunity for a public service posting.
Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sleep-apnea/symptoms-causes/syc-20377631
The main types of sleep apnea are:
  • Obstructive sleep apnea, the more common form that occurs when throat muscles relax
  • Central sleep apnea, which occurs when your brain doesn't send proper signals to the muscles that control breathing
  • Complex sleep apnea syndrome, also known as treatment-emergent central sleep apnea, which occurs when someone has both obstructive sleep apnea and central sleep apnea
. . .
  • Excess weight. Obesity greatly increases the risk of sleep apnea. Fat deposits around your upper airway can obstruct your breathing.
  • Neck circumference. People with thicker necks might have narrower airways.
  • A narrowed airway. You might have inherited a narrow throat. Tonsils or adenoids also can enlarge and block the airway, particularly in children.
  • Being male. Men are two to three times more likely to have sleep apnea than are women. However, women increase their risk if they're overweight, and their risk also appears to rise after menopause.
  • Being older. Sleep apnea occurs significantly more often in older adults.
  • Family history. Having family members with sleep apnea might increase your risk.
  • Use of alcohol, sedatives or tranquilizers. These substances relax the muscles in your throat, which can worsen obstructive sleep apnea.
  • Smoking. Smokers are three times more likely to have obstructive sleep apnea than are people who've never smoked. Smoking can increase the amount of inflammation and fluid retention in the upper airway.
  • Nasal congestion. If you have difficulty breathing through your nose — whether from an anatomical problem or allergies — you're more likely to develop obstructive sleep apnea.
Source: https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-apnea
The treatment of choice for obstructive sleep apnea is continuous positive airway pressure device (CPAP). CPAP is a mask that fits over the nose and/or mouth, and gently blows air into the airway to help keep it open during sleep. This method of treatment is highly effective. Using the CPAP as recommended by your doctor is very important.
Other methods of treating sleep apnea include: dental appliances which reposition the lower jaw and tongue; upper airway surgery to remove tissue in the airway; nasal expiratory positive airway pressure where a disposable valve covers the nostrils; and treatment using hypoglossal nerve stimulation where a stimulator is implanted in the patient’s chest with leads connected to the hypoglossal nerve that controls tongue movement as well as to a breathing sensor. The sensor monitors breathing patterns during sleep and stimulates the hypoglossal nerve to move the tongue to maintain an open airway.​
I treat my sleep apnea but a series of unplanned events meant I was off my CPAP for 10 days. Still, I had lost ~10% of my weight and no alcohol during my wife's hospital stay. I had no symptoms until that barren road . . . and then AutoPilot did what it is designed to do . . . make Teslas safer.

So no, I'm not giving up driving any more or less than anyone else. If I were to get a commercial truck driver's license, I would have to pass a medical and include my sleep apnea treatment records. If I were to get a flight medical to resume flying, again, the flight surgeon would get my sleep apnea treatment records. Let me give you a challenge.

How do you propose to identify undiagnosed sleep apnea patients?

Bob Wilson
 
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turbobrick240

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I'm surprised your wife allowed you to continue driving after the first event or two. Perhaps she was sleeping too. Try to use better judgement in the future. Autopilot hasn't quite reached the level where the driver can snooze safely.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Scary isn't it? But, if you could fix all the stupid in the world, there simply wouldn't be many humans left. :eek:
 

bwilson4web

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I'm surprised your wife allowed you to continue driving after the first event or two. Perhaps she was sleeping too. Try to use better judgement in the future. Autopilot hasn't quite reached the level where the driver can snooze safely.
Actually she alerted me to the first two. The other three I recognized because of 'waking' effects. BTW, my narcoleptic wife no longer drives. Her symptoms have abated since age ~65 but when she was driving it was 'interesting.'

Narcolepsy is entirely different from sleep apnea with even more serious symptoms. Yet I'd seen her detecting an event coming on and she would pull into a rest area to deal with it. Narcolepsy treatment is entirely different from sleep apnea: prescription amphetamines, provigil (modafinil generic), and GHB (yes the date rape drug.) Again, a great resource is https://www.sleepassociation.org.

Sleeping disorders are often under diagnosed. My wife's symptoms came on as a teenager but she was not diagnosed until in her 20s. There is typically a 10 year gap between initial symptoms and diagnosis. Fortunately, there are animal studies that have helped map out details of the syndrome:
https://youtu.be/jTj3a2nHw8k

There was a meeting at a narcolepsy research center that had the dogs. One of the ladies was at the kennel when a young man came up and said, "COOL! Narcoleptic dogs. Hey lady watch this BOOOOOOOO!"

The dogs and the lady collapsed in cataplexy and the young man thought he'd killed her. She had collapsed with the dogs and they were looking at each other. But she was so amused by the young man's panic, she was unable to get out of her cataplexy. Extreme happiness can bring on a cataplexy.

Going back to AutoPilot, the advanced "Navigate on AutoPilot" gives a clue about the future. Currently limited to divided highways, it requires confirmation of lane changes but knows how to deal with slow traffic and up coming exits. This technology will extend safe driving for older folks . . . which hopefully you'll achieve someday. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson
 
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SilverGhost

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I hate to be #3, but I have already had this discussion with my wife when her father was driving. There were several times when her and her brothers had to scold him for driving when he shouldn't. Luckily only damage was a fence that was repaired. But imagine it could have been worse had there been someone on that sidewalk.

As far as AutoPilot, it makes overall driving safer in controlled environments, but has a few gaping holes. See the fatalities from people depending on AutoPilot.

Personally I see your specific situation the same as someone who has a restricted license for corrective lenses and forgot their glasses. You KNEW you were off you meds and drove anyway. I could care less about the rest of the time - you got a car that can help "catch you" if you have an event. Bravo for taking steps to help make roads safer. But knowingly driving when you shouldn't - that is when I have a problem.

Please ask for a ride if something like this comes up again.

Jason
 

bwilson4web

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If we can put sleep disorders aside, next week I'm headed to:
Source: EV Conference - Revealing Secrets of Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt

Calling all automotive engineers looking for objective technical information about today’s leading electric vehicles (EVs). Munro & Associates, world leaders in the Lean Design® methodology, teardown benchmarking and design optimization, is hosting an Electric Vehicle Technical Briefing on Friday, June 21 at its world headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. During the event, the Munro team will present an engineering comparison of four leading EVs: the Tesla Model 3; the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt; and the Jaguar I-PACE.

The tour of the Munro Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center will provide an Engineering deep dive of the most advanced electric vehicles and technologies in the market today. Munro will also provide an in-depth view into how you can analyze products and perform your own reengineering.

The main focus will be on the EV “Big 3” Motors, Batteries and Electronics; however, there will be a new technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today. The Tesla 3 will be compared to the BMW i3 and the Chevy Bolt.

Unlike many “Power Point Conferences” the parts of all three of the vehicles will be laid out on tables and Munro “A Frames” with knowledgeable Munro Engineers to provide a detailed description of the key take-ways from each part of the car and answer questions.

For the Jaguar I-PACE, there will be a hoist review to discuss the I-PACE and its electric motor.

EXTRA! Munro has also invited an independent investigator from Tesloop who will share important aspects of EVs that are rarely discussed; life expectancy and maintenance of an EV. Tesloop has ALL the documentation on the durability of the Tesla product.​
This is a must attend event for all EV Engineers!
$199 which includes:
  • An overview of: motors, batteries, and electronics the “EV Big 3”
  • A technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today
  • A tour of Munro’s Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center
  • The opportunity to participate in an engineering deep dive of today’s most advanced EVs and technologies
  • An in-depth view into how Munro analyzes products and performs reverse engineering.
Timing, Location & Agenda:
Friday, June 21st, 2019
Munro & Associates
1140 Centre Road Auburn Hills, MI 48326
Code:
8:30 to 9:00    Registration, Coffee & Donuts
9:00 to 9:15    Welcome and logistics
9:15 to 9:45    Who is Munro? How do we get our Numbers?
9:45 to 10:15   Battery Debrief
10:15 to 10:45   Electronics Debrief
10:45 to 11:15   Electric Motor Debrief
11:15 to 12:00   Long Range Tesla Data; Full data on Tesla vehicles some with 380,000 MILES!    BTW No Maintenance Issues!!!
12:00 to 13:00 Lunch
13:00 to 15:30   Group Breakout, On-The-Floor, Around The Parts Review;
I- PACE Hoist Review, Side-By-Side Discussions At 5 Teardown Stations
To Discuss All The Vehicle Components
15:30 to 16:30   Social Hour, Tours of Other Vehicles at Munro and Networking
If you have specific interest or questions, post them here and I'll take them with me to the conference.
I've got everything mapped out:

  • Conference fee, $200 (paid)
  • Leave Thursday 6-7 AM, arrive 8:30-9:30 PM (13h 32m)
  • 696 mi expected cost $40 each way based on previous trips (*), $80 total
  • SuperCharger stops, charging time, and arrival
    • Bowling Green, 30 min
    • Louisville, 30 min
    • Cincinnati, 30 min
    • Lima, 30 min
    • Toledo, 30 min
    • arrive Auburn Hills
  • car rental and parking, $0
  • hotel room $75
  • AutoPilot is my co-pilot
  • return Friday evening
  • Tesla napping at the chargers
  • arrive home Saturday morning
This approach is CHEAP compared to the least expensive airfare. It is also GOOD because I get to take what I want, flexible schedule, and eat where I want. Best of all, I avoid the purgatory of TSA, airports, and airliners.

Bob Wilson
* - Trips to Dallas and Coffeyville came in at $30-40 each way. Likely to see only $80 total charging fees.
 

Tin Man

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$80 in approximate charging fees for about 700 miles may seem like a lot to us diesel geezers. I get 550 miles on $47 with one 5 minute fillup with my 5-series BMW. Just saying. 2.5 hours of charging each way seems somewhat problematic compared to 10 minutes at the fuel station. Thanks for the info. Interesting conference.

TM
 

bwilson4web

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$80 in approximate charging fees for about 700 miles may seem like a lot to us diesel geezers. I get 550 miles on $47 with one 5 minute fillup with my 5-series BMW.
Total estimated EV costs, $80, is for the round trip, 1,400 miles. I'm expecting ~$40 for each 700 mi leg.
Just saying. 2.5 hours of charging each way seems somewhat problematic compared to 10 minutes at the fuel station. Thanks for the info. Interesting conference.
The trip planning tool only supports half hour, charging increments. One goal of this trip is to measure the actual times and validate a charging strategy I modeled. The issue is which charging approach is better:
  • Maximum distance charge and drive bypassing chargers
  • Minimum distance charge hopping charger-to-charger
  • Something in between
My charging model suggests the optimum charging time is closer to 16 minutes. This is the SuperCharger profile for my Standard Range Plus Model 3:


So I combined travel time and distance at 65 mph with charging time delay and came up with this optimization curve for fastest travel time:

  • Too frequent charging is cheapest but slows the block-to-block travel time due to ramp-up delay.
  • Too long charging, carries the extra charge past a charger and is slower because of the charge taper delay.
  • There appears to be a 'sweet spot' where the travel time is fastest and cost moderate.

Although complex, this graph shows the tradeoff:


This trip will validate my model with real world data. I also get to attend the conference.

I chose the Standard Range Plus Model 3 because the relatively smaller battery, 2/3d the kWh, 50-55 kWh, and lightest battery weight of the long range trims. The vehicle weight, ~3,711 lbs, maximizes the miles per kWh, ~4 mi/kWh which is the best of the Model 3 trims. FYI, I'm a 'green' as in 'Greenback Yankee dollars kept in my wallet' which is my primary motivator.

Bob Wilson

ps. This car replaced the Prius Prime and it was pretty miserly. For example, the Prius drive home, 1,200 miles, took 22 gallons, ~$55. Being an old man, I took frequent biology breaks for coffee and pee breaks which now overlap with the Model 3 charging.
 
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Tin Man

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Well, let's see: Yesterday, I rode 31.7 miles in just under three hours. I consumed one hot dog, two bananas, three power bars, about a gallon of water, and one beer. Burned about 3000 calories.

Based on other comments about injuries associated with scooters. In Charlotte, we are also seeing a rise in injuries on rental scooters and bikes, mainly because most riders do not have a helmet. NC bike helmet law only covers those under 16. Us old folks are able to decide for ourselves. Myself? I never get on my bike without a helmet. It may not save me from all harm, but it least it might keep what brain is left working correctly.
Looks like there's more to the use of electric scooters than mentioned. Here is a piece about potential liability of the scooter user which is conveniently avoided in the scooter contract:
NEW YORK (AP) — We've all seen reports about head injuries, traffic accidents and even deaths that electric scooter riders have suffered as the popular new mobility option has pushed onto the streets in more than 100 cities worldwide.

Despite the dangers, riders are exposing themselves to liability and are most likely not insured for the damages they may cause.

A rider's personal health insurance — if he or she has it — could help defray the cost of their own medical bills in case of an accident.

But it's another matter entirely when a scooter rider hits and injures a pedestrian, damages someone's property or causes a car accident. The rider may be held responsible, and most insurance policies will not cover those expenses.

"Under the standard insurance policy, there's most likely a pretty significant gap in coverage," said Lucian McMahon, senior research specialist for the Insurance Information Institute. "Even if the odds are low, it doesn't mean that something bad might not happen, and owing people money or compensation for injuries that you caused them can get very, very expensive, perhaps even ruinously so."

The two largest scooter companies in the United States — Bird and Lime — generally place the responsibility for accidents on riders by listing in their rental agreements that riders relieve the companies of liability. Customers must agree to those terms to ride.
 

bizzle

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What do you mean by "conveniently" left out of contracts? How else would you want to handle personal responsibility of the rider? No one assumes vehicle manufacturers are liable for damages drivers cause with the vehicles, why would it be any different for scooters?
 

Tin Man

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What do you mean by "conveniently" left out of contracts? How else would you want to handle personal responsibility of the rider? No one assumes vehicle manufacturers are liable for damages drivers cause with the vehicles, why would it be any different for scooters?
There is an out for the scooter company but not for the customer, putting people at risk for serious liability. Best get an umbrella policy before donning a helmet and riding one of those things.

I doubt people consider the company that markets and profits from these things free of liability, especially if they appear to be inherently unsafe.

The whole issue stinks.
 
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kjclow

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I doubt that the liability clause is left out of the contract. It's probably buried in there somewhere. Most, if not all, of the renters probably never read through the full rental agreement. I see it as no different than renting a car. Do you know what's covered and by whom if you get in an accident?
 

bizzle

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There is an out for the scooter company but not for the customer, putting people at risk for serious liability. Best get an umbrella policy before donning a helmet and riding one of those things.

I doubt people consider the company that markets and profits from these things free of liability, especially if they appear to be inherently unsafe.

The whole issue stinks.
You reiterated your complaint; I asked why you have that complaint. What is the basis for your belief that the scooter company should have any liability for damages riders cause?

If they are inherently unsafe, that's an issue between rider and company. But the article you cited, and your complaint, is about scooter companies refusing to accept responsibility for damages the riders cause even though they are caused by behavior rather than inherent qualities of the device.

In my opinion, it doesn't seem like you've read the article you cited closely. It doesn't seem intended to alert the public about scooter companies refusing liability for accidents. Rather, the article is warning riders that their normal coverages don't apply to the activities they are doing. The article points out that:
a. scooter companies have limited insurance covering faulty scooters (industry standard)
b. scooter companies require riders to sign waivers indemnifying the companies from damages the customers incur (industry standard)
c. the article warns potential customers that their normal liability insurance for vehicles would not automatically cover any damages they cause (industry standard)
d. the article warns potential customers that their normal home owners/renters insurance would not automatically cover any damages they cause (industry standard)

Yes, you should get an umbrella policy if that policy is going to cover your activity on a scooter. That's the point of the article, but I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that any of this "stinks." More to the point, what are you expecting to be different? The only alternative I can think of would be to require scooter manufacturers be held liable for behavior their customers do. No other industry is held to that standard that I'm aware of, but that seems to be the proposal you're implying.
 
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Tin Man

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I doubt that the liability clause is left out of the contract. It's probably buried in there somewhere. Most, if not all, of the renters probably never read through the full rental agreement. I see it as no different than renting a car. Do you know what's covered and by whom if you get in an accident?
Uh, yes I do know my liability when renting a car, and yes I do read the contracts. What do the last two posts have to do with my issue of renter liability exposure? Bizzle just disagrees with what I wrote only to reiterate what I wrote. Sheesh.

Its probably not a good idea to use one of these scooters until proper coverage is obtained. I never said the scooter company should provide it, just that it doesn't.

TM
 

bizzle

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Uh, yes I do know my liability when renting a car, and yes I do read the contracts. What do the last two posts have to do with my issue of renter liability exposure? Bizzle just disagrees with what I wrote only to reiterate what I wrote. Sheesh.
TM
Yes, I reiterated what you wrote and then disagreed with it. I then asked you to explain why you think it's a problem as is common in a debate.

There really are only three options as far as I can tell:
1. ignore what you wrote (pointlessly talking past one another)
2. restate what you wrote and disagree with it
3. restate what you didn't write and disagree with that (straw-man)

I suppose an argument could be made of 4. restate what you wrote and then agree with it; but that's not where we're at in this discussion--I disagree with what I think you're trying to argue.

I reiterated what you wrote and asked you to explain why you think it's a problem. So far, you haven't bothered to do so.

I'm going to reiterate your statement and disagree with it again:
If you acknowledge that car rental companies don't have any individual liability for damages you, as a driver of a car being rented cause, then why do you think it should be any different for a scooter company renting out scooters?

This is, by my count, the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.
 

aja8888

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Yes, I reiterated what you wrote and then disagreed with it. I then asked you to explain why you think it's a problem as is common in a debate.

There really are only three options as far as I can tell:
1. ignore what you wrote (pointlessly talking past one another)
2. restate what you wrote and disagree with it
3. restate what you didn't write and disagree with that (straw-man)

I suppose an argument could be made of 4. restate what you wrote and then agree with it; but that's not where we're at in this discussion--I disagree with what I think you're trying to argue.

I reiterated what you wrote and asked you to explain why you think it's a problem. So far, you haven't bothered to do so.

I'm going to reiterate your statement and disagree with it again:
If you acknowledge that car rental companies don't have any individual liability for damages you, as a driver of a car being rented cause, then why do you think it should be any different for a scooter company renting out scooters?

This is, by my count, the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.
Not to be a prude here, but the above is a waste of bandwidth. If you are going to argue with someone here, do it with PM's.
 

Tin Man

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Yes, I reiterated what you wrote and then disagreed with it. I then asked you to explain why you think it's a problem as is common in a debate.

There really are only three options as far as I can tell:
1. ignore what you wrote (pointlessly talking past one another)
2. restate what you wrote and disagree with it
3. restate what you didn't write and disagree with that (straw-man)

I suppose an argument could be made of 4. restate what you wrote and then agree with it; but that's not where we're at in this discussion--I disagree with what I think you're trying to argue.

I reiterated what you wrote and asked you to explain why you think it's a problem. So far, you haven't bothered to do so.

I'm going to reiterate your statement and disagree with it again:
If you acknowledge that car rental companies don't have any individual liability for damages you, as a driver of a car being rented cause, then why do you think it should be any different for a scooter company renting out scooters?

This is, by my count, the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.
There is no rental car that I can rent without personal liability covered under my insurance, under a supplemental insurance I can purchase, and under my America Express gold card. What is your point? According to the article, scooters are not covered and have no available extra coverage outside of an umbrella policy.

TM
 
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bizzle

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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
There is no rental car that I can rent without personal liability covered under my insurance, under a supplemental insurance I can purchase, and under my America Express gold card. What is your point? According to the article, scooters are not covered and have no available extra coverage outside of an umbrella policy.

TM
The point is that in both cases the operator of the vehicle, not the manufacture, is personally responsible for damages caused by the use of the vehicle.


The derogatory terms you used to describe the contracts between manufacturers and riders led me to believe you were being critical of them. I was responding that those contracts are industry standard. If you were simply posting that people need to obtain insurance to be fully covered as a PSA to the board, my responses don't make much sense.
 
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Tin Man

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Nov 18, 2001
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Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
The point is that in both cases the operator of the vehicle, not the manufacture, is personally responsible for damages caused by the use of the vehicle.


The derogatory terms you used to describe the contracts between manufacturers and riders led me to believe you were being critical of them. I was responding that those contracts are industry standard. If you were simply posting that people need to obtain insurance to be fully covered as a PSA to the board, my responses don't make much sense.
Pardon those of us who feel negatively toward businesses that put unaware patrons at personal risk of bankruptcy and other harms.
 

kjclow

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The only reason that those patrons may be at personal risk of bankruptcy or other harms, is if they do not have any form of liability insurance. Any damage I may cause on my bicycle is covered under the liability portion of my car insurance.

It's a circular argument that can end at any time.

Actually, I can walk into to any rental car company within the next 30 minutes and never have to offer proof of insurance to drive off with one of their cars. It will take me about 30 minutes to get to the nearest rental lot.
 
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