1.9tdi in a 2.5tdi 5cyl

greg123

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Greetings all, I'm not sure how similar the 1.9tdi and 2.5tdi engines are. I was wondering if the flywheel/bellhousing bolt pattern may well be the same, in which case what would be the feesability of putting a 1.9tdi in a vehicle (A6, Volvo V70) which had the 2.5tdi 5cyl motor in?

I'm after a tuned 1.9tdi for ease of working on and fuel economy, power won't be an issue half the 2.5tdi's are only 115bhp anyhow I can easily tune the 1.9 up past 2.5 levels. Also auto estate 1.9tdi's are rare, but many 2.5's are. So my idea was to pick a nice car such as the ultra safe ane well built Volvo V70, and replace the engine with the 1.9.

However if anyone knows if the engine will mate to the gearbox this will be a 'yes' or 'no' for my idea!

Greg.
 

karlaudi

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This is a quick reply, so I have not done the research to anwser your question fully, but from memory.

A check of a VW / Audi ETKA parts catalog will provide the need cross referencing infomation and there are plenty for sale on eBay. I brough mine a few years ago on eBay Deutschland and had it sent to me.

I would agree that a 1.9 TDi is less expensive to service than a 2.5 TDi as the 1.9 is a four cylinder and the 2.5 a V6. But the cost of converting to the smaller motor I would think would far out weigh any maintenance savings. Especially when the cost of tuning a 2.5 TDi for improved power and economy is rather cheap from VW / Audi Tuners like Motoren-Technik-Meyer (M-T-M), for example.

Regards
 

bhtooefr

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Yes, the TDI in the 1990 Audi 100 Avant (the first TDI ever) was a 2.5 I-5.

Anyone got a wrecked Audi 100 Avant TDI lying around, and an Audi 5000 (preferably TD) that chewed a timing belt?
 

piper106

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I have been told that the bolt pattern on the trans end of the 4 cylinder engines is different than the bolt pattern shared by the 5 cylinder inline and the VR6 engine, so a 1.9 TDI will not bolt up to the five cylinder trans.

Piper106
 

ensanity

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I have heard the bolt patterns were different as well, but then again I thought that the diesel vw/volvo 5 cyl. was not a tdi so you probably should not listen to me.
 

DPM

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Isn't the diesel in the V70 Volvo's own? In that case you might have less trouble transplanting the lump out of a V40, more chance of looms etc being common.
Early V40s are Renault powered like the 440 I believe, but the latest ones I dunno. Is it Volvo's variant of the Ford/PSA HDI unit?
 

greg123

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The 850/V70 had the 140bhp version of the 5cyl VW 2.5tdi. If anyone knows of information how to tune that engine to perform mpg like the 1.9tdi let me know - all my experience has lead me to believe it's at least 10mpg behind (the A4 & A6 have both engines and I'm pretty sure the 2.5 sups a lot more juice for the same driving style). If some chips/advanced timing can yeild a huge improvement I'd be interested.

The 440 was an idi 1.9td, the V40 later had a common rail renault 1.9dci which by all accounts was a cracking motor, liked by the Volvo techs more than the Peugeot 2.0hdi that ford put in it later.

I was particularly interested in the V70 as I like the car, huge - very safe, incredibly well built, no common faults. to the extent the garages call them boring. But I like the VW 4cyl tdi engine for it's performance and the possibility of mating it up to the auto from the 2.5.

But i guess if the bolt pattern is different then it's a no go idea! Maybe an A6 1.9tdi estate, but the boot isn't as big/insurance/no sips etc etc. Also I need an auto.

Any more thoughts appreciated, it's not looking promising so far.

Greg.

DPM said:
Isn't the diesel in the V70 Volvo's own? In that case you might have less trouble transplanting the lump out of a V40, more chance of looms etc being common.
Early V40s are Renault powered like the 440 I believe, but the latest ones I dunno. Is it Volvo's variant of the Ford/PSA HDI unit?
 

greg123

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The maintainence isn't so much of an issue, the 2.5 is just not as friendly to work on with it's twin belts special tools and hard to set timing etc, as well as being knuckle skinning due to width. But I'd put up with it if I could get the economy. I'm interested in the tuning - do you have any experience in 'working' the 2.5?

Greg.

karlaudi said:
This is a quick reply, so I have not done the research to anwser your question fully, but from memory.

A check of a VW / Audi ETKA parts catalog will provide the need cross referencing infomation and there are plenty for sale on eBay. I brough mine a few years ago on eBay Deutschland and had it sent to me.

I would agree that a 1.9 TDi is less expensive to service than a 2.5 TDi as the 1.9 is a four cylinder and the 2.5 a V6. But the cost of converting to the smaller motor I would think would far out weigh any maintenance savings. Especially when the cost of tuning a 2.5 TDi for improved power and economy is rather cheap from VW / Audi Tuners like Motoren-Technik-Meyer (M-T-M), for example.

Regards
 

karlaudi

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(Another quick reply....)

To all the other posters, as stated in another thread I saw the Audi 5-cylinder 2.5 TD first hand at the 1991 Frankfort Auto show, but if I remember correctly it an electronically control indirect injection motor rather than the current "Common Rail" / PD etc. direct injection motors. I believe no one, like "tuners" Oettinger, Abt, M-T-M etc. ever really did in development work on this familly of motors which date back to the late-seventies. But I could be wrong on this for sure.

The current 2.5 TDi is a V6 (90 degree?) instead of narow angle- inline (15 degree ?) VR6 of which no diesel version has been put into production.

As for experience with a 2.5 V6 TDI ? I have no direct experience since Audi has been unable or unwilling to bring their fine family of diesels into the States, except in limited numbers as fitted to VWs. And of those, they are the "basic versions" of the 1.9 / 2.0 TDI 4-cylinder motors.

What little I know of the 2.5 V6 TDi is what I have learned through Audi Driver and VW Driver Magazines which, as I am sure you know, originate in the UK. (I would still check with the various tuners both in Germanny and the UK though.)

And I have yet to convince my French father in-law to switch from Renaults to either a VW or Audi. Unlike my wife! So no experience there either.
 
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bhtooefr

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The Audi 100 Avant TDI had a 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI engine.

It *WAS* direct injection, being a TDI, but used a Bosch VE (distributor) pump, much like the 1970's diesels (actually, the 51 Diesel Beetle prototype used a VE pump, for that matter...) - and just like your Golf, which is one of the later VE-TDIs.

Pumpe-Duese didn't appear until 2000 in Europe and 2004 in the US, after all.

Oh, and there's several different 2.5L TDIs.

The 2.5L I-5 VE-TDI was first.

Then there were 2.5L V6 VE, PD, and CR-TDIs (yep, Audi uses CR now).

Oh, and can't forget the 2.5L R5 (think I-5) PD-TDI. Half of a V10 TDI.
 

karlaudi

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The 5 cylinder was a “direct injection” TD in 2.5 liter form from 1989 to 1994 (in that there is a chassis split) and was Audi’s first TDi motor. [When I saw it at Frankfort, in 1991, I was unable to get any literature and was unable to get any one to point out the features of the motor as well. The 2.0/2.4 version 5-cylinder motors are indirect injection.

My EKTA is current to 2001 for European models and checking everywhere else I see no record of PD’s ever being used on any VW/ Audi motor bigger than 4 cylinders except for the 2.5 L R5 TDi used, apparently in the European Market Touareg and T5 Multivan/Commercial. I believe it is use in Marine applications as well. The “R” in R5 being the German acronym for inline.

The 2.5 L R5 TDi should not be confused with the 150/170 hp 2.3 L VR5 or the 150 2.5 (US Market only) inline 5-cylinder gasoline motors in both design and design origins.

Because “Common Rail” is most closely associated with direct injection diesels I tend to use it with all VW/ Audi TDi’s whether they use VE pumps, or rotary vane pumps, or PD ‘s, as short hand, especially with those I know who are not VW / Audi focused, like I am, in discussions outside this forum. Otherwise it just gets too confusing.

Thanks again!

Best Regards!
 
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Pat Dolan

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I wouldn't discount the 2.5 I-5 as anything but the very best of VWs technology. If you watch Kleinschmidt or whoever in a PDK Touareg, you are watching the 5 cyl, NOT the V-10 TDI. In other words, VW Motorsport is one source for 2.5 tuning info, and I should imagine the chip tuners know the engine as well.

Karl: Please don't refer to the VW engines as common rail, since they are anything but. The current PD engines are unit injectors (an evolutionary dead end since they cannot accomodate dissolved/released air in the fuel). The new Audis are indeed CRTDIs - which means that the fuel pressure is boosted to delivery pressure in the "common rail" and the injectors (peizzo-electric ones) are on-off valves (with incredibly fast response times in this case).
 

karlaudi

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Pat Dolan said:
I wouldn't discount the 2.5 I-5 as anything but the very best of VWs technology. If you watch Kleinschmidt or whoever in a PDK Touareg, you are watching the 5 cyl, NOT the V-10 TDI. In other words, VW Motorsport is one source for 2.5 tuning info, and I should imagine the chip tuners know the engine as well.

Karl: Please don't refer to the VW engines as common rail, since they are anything but. The current PD engines are unit injectors (an evolutionary dead end since they cannot accomodate dissolved/released air in the fuel). The new Audis are indeed CRTDIs - which means that the fuel pressure is boosted to delivery pressure in the "common rail" and the injectors (peizzo-electric ones) are on-off valves (with incredibly fast response times in this case).
Thanks Pat for the perspective, but I know what PD’s are and why VW/Bosch are dropping them. I learned about piezo-electric injectors in my VW Driver and Audi Driver Magazines before this development was mentioned here in the TDi Club forum.

As I said I use the term “common rail” as short hand for this reason. Outside this forum, outside the USA for that matter, the most common term associated direct injection diesel engine technology, regardless of what fuel system is actually used, is “common rail.”

Quick! How many tdi engines have been using common rail over the last ten years and who makes them. Well, I do not know off the top of my head, but if I check every issue of the British magazine CAR I have (I still have almost every issue since I saw my first copy in 1983.) I am sure I will most likely find more brands of tdi diesels fitted with common rail than not, given the development of tdi technology outside the VW/Audi Group. (Otherwise I have been reading wrong all these years and I never claim to be perfect.)

If I said, “Super 90” what is the first thought that comes in your head? I would hazard to say if you have heard the term before, it is in association with Porsche.

Correct?

Or did you say Audi.

Most people, who would know, would say Porsche and would be correct. I have found few who know, even at Audi Dealers, that the first Audi ever sold in the USA was called a “Super 90.” It was a “Super 90” because it required Premium gasoline (95 –98 RON) and produced 90 hp DIN. And to describe the Super 90 fully, I would have to explain the basis of the Super 90 and how it fit into a model lineup that was all the same except the models were delineated by the engine horsepower, not engine displacement (but was related) and trim levels. Yet, in point of fact, it is even more detailed than that.

My point here is that, as I stated originally, I use term “common rail” as short hand, so that every discussion, especially outside this forum, is not a full blown technical dissertation when the basics of TDi Technology are that Direct Injection Diesels require [ever] higher fuel system pressures with more precise and adjustable injection times in a drive to produce greater power and torque over a specific RPM range with ever increasing regard to fuel consumption and emissions in which “common rail” fuel systems are the systems of choice for these on going developments in passenger cars. This was true very early on in the growth of TDi technology, especially outside of the VW /Audi Group.

As for performance tuning of either a first or second-generation Audi 2.5 L 5-cylinder diesel let me address the first generation motor, first.

As this motor was converted to direct injection rather late in its production life, I do not doubt that there is little, if any, performance tuning available for this motor, nor do I ever recall there ever being any.

In the heyday of the 2.2/2.3 L 5-cylinder gasoline motor very little was offered in the area of engine tuning, be it a 20V or 10V Turbo, or normally aspirated motor. In 1991, at the Frankfurt Auto Show the premier VW / Audi tuner, Abt, offered no engine enhancements, of any type, outside of a post catalyst exhaust for the then current production type 89 80/90 model Audis, for example.

With respect to the 2.5 L R5 5-cylinder motor running in VW Motorsport supported Touaregs. If past patterns follow, with VW and Audi racing cars over the past 31 years, very little of the motor, outside of the short block, will resemble a production [second generation] 2.5L R5 5-cylinder.

Of the two preeminent VW/Audi tuners, Abt Sportline and M-T-M (Motoren-Technik-Mayer), only Abt offers performance modifications for the 2.5L R5 5-cylinder in the form of “chip tuning” (128 @ 3500 rpm to 152 @ 3800 DIN). M-T-M’s sole focus is on the V-10 TDi.

I drove a few of the original Audi 5-cylinder diesels sold in the USA when they were current models [and I serviced VW's and Audis for a living] and I loved them. I very much enjoyed the gasoline versions, especially in the type 85 and type 89 quattro’s I’ve owned too.

But I must say I still believe, given all our discussions so far, that the conversion of 1.9 TDi to either a 2.5 V6 TDi or 2.5 R5 TDi is not the best option given the tuning developments that already exists for VW/Audi models of A4/A6 already equipped with either the 1.9 or 2.5 TDi’s from the factory.
 
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greg123

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For what it's worth having qualified as a mechanic some 16 years ago and spending many hundreds of hours working on customers cars and mixing with others in the trade, Common Rail is NEVER used as a 'shorthand' in the UK. Common Rail means it's a common rail fed diesel. If people are using a generic term for a diesel engine, they will just say 'diesel'. With modern engines if a shorthand is uses, it's likely to be DI for a modern motor which is Direct Injection (this could be PD, pump or CR). Most certainly CR is never used in connecetion with a PD motor such as the Land Rover or VW engine, or a pump motor (be it a di or an idi pump motor).

Generally, when you have a fork and a spade, it's best not to call them both spades as people get confused ;-)

Oh and on the subject of the 5-cyl motor, water pump breaking and breaking cambelt, pump timing and cambelt replacement issues combined with 10mpg less than a 1.9tdi running at a similar power level would suggest to me it's not the best of VW. The fact that it can be developed for extra power isn't really the point. Yet to find anyone that can demonstrate outstanding fuel economy from the 2.5. In fact I have yet to see anyone beat my Montego of old, 2.0 turbo DI engine and when doing a motorway run between 85 and 100mph it would return the same as in mixed town driving, 55mpg. Never beaten that yet. Some people got 70 out of them, not me - heavy right foot. Checked over many tanks of fuel, it was always consistant.

I don't really understand why these obviously better modern cars are so poor on fuel. Hired a Ford Fiesta 1.4 diesel, did about 400 miles, brimmed the tank again and it had done 38mpg. CR engine. And I never got above 85mph on that trip - awful economy, my Passat 1.8 Estate used to do 38mpg on a run and the Fiesta is about half the size, diesel, modern, 1.4 engine computer controled. Hire place said they were all the same - awful on fuel!

Greg.
 

karlaudi

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:eek: Ok! Ok! I apologize for the following statement:

“Because “Common Rail” is most closely associated with direct injection diesels I tend to use it with all VW/ Audi TDi’s whether they use VE pumps, or rotary vane pumps, or PD ‘s, as short hand, especially with those I know who are not VW / Audi focused, like I am, in discussions outside this forum. Otherwise it just gets too confusing.”

What I should of said is maybe this:

“When discussing modern TDi / Di engine technology of about the last 17 years to those who are not familiar with modern TDi’s, let alone any gasoline fuel injected car of the last 31 years, I generally refer to direct injection diesels with “common rail” fuel systems because “Common Rail” is the term most closely associated with direct injection diesels and appears to be the dominate fuel delivery system for now and in the near future. The common rail system is the diesel fuel system whose description is most likely to be similar to the gasoline fuel injection systems in use in many cars sold in America today, in that, high pressure fuel is delivered to a set of injectors all sharing a common supply line. Because “Common Rail” is most closely associated with direct injection diesels I tend to use it with all VW/ Audi TDi’s too, whether they use VE pumps, or rotary vane pumps, or PD ‘s, as short hand, especially with those I know who are not VW / Audi focused, like I am, in discussions outside this forum, because unless they have at least some basic knowledge in automotive technology that extends beyond pushrod V8’s the discussion of the various fuel systems for diesels tends to be just too confusing to them, when I am explaining the overall benefits of direct injection diesel technology.”

If I get that far, then I may explain the difference between indirect injection diesels and gasoline motors and then move to direct injection gas and diesel motors and maybe Audi’s FSI technology.

I will save what I think and love about Audi’s first generation 5-cylinder motors for another day.

My first professional Automotive Service job was when I went to work for a VW shop I bought my parts from, right out of the US Navy in 1979. In 1985, I completed a three year accredited Automotive Service program at a local Junior College. In late1986, five others and I beat out over one hundred other semifinalist to be the first of six, out of class of eleven, nationwide to enter BMW North America’s first Service Technician Training Program (S.T.E.P.) class for 1987.

I too, have spent countless hours with both customers and peers in the trade and at school explaining in great detail the nature of, and the reasons for maintenance and repairs, automotive technology. All of which is a story in and of its self and I will leave it at that.

As for why modern diesels get poor mileage for you in the UK? Well I would compare vehicle weighs for one, among other parameters.

The February issue of CAR in their “The Good, The Bad, The Ugly” section rate a Ford Fiesta 1.4 HDCi Style @ 62 mpg (imperial) compared to the Ford Fiesta 1.4 Style [petrol?] @ 45 mpg (imperial) and for comparison I choose the 136 hp version of the Mondeo 2.0TDCi LX Saloon (EURO4) @ 48 mpg (imperial).


Cheers!



 
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Pat Dolan

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karlaudi said:
:eek: “When discussing modern TDi / Di engine technology of about the last 17 years to those who are not familiar with modern TDi’s, let alone any gasoline fuel injected car of the last 31 years, I generally refer to direct injection diesels with “common rail” fuel systems because “Common Rail” is the term most closely associated with direct injection diesels and appears to be the dominate fuel delivery system for now and in the near future. The common rail system is the diesel fuel system whose description is most likely to be similar to the gasoline fuel injection systems in use in many cars sold in America today, in that, high pressure fuel is delivered to a set of injectors all sharing a common supply line. Because “Common Rail” is most closely associated with direct injection diesels I tend to use it with all VW/ Audi TDi’s too, whether they use VE pumps, or rotary vane pumps, or PD ‘s, as short hand, especially with those I know who are not VW / Audi focused, like I am, in discussions outside this forum, because unless they have at least some basic knowledge in automotive technology that extends beyond pushrod V8’s the discussion of the various fuel systems for diesels tends to be just too confusing to them, when I am explaining the overall benefits of direct injection diesel technology.”


It is confusing for them when those to whom they look for leadership and enlightenment give them incorrect information. While you may be linguistically correct in infering that fuel for a PD is being supplied from a "common rail" in diesel terminology, this is referred to as a unit injector, since it is the description of where the injection pressure is created that seems to be the defining factor. Common rail is, as you suggest, exactly like an electronic gasoline injection system whereby the injectors do not add any pressure, but are merely valves.

BTW: considering your post and Greg's post, it leaves me with a serious question to ponder: In the days of air-cooled VWs and two-stroke Audis, I too was a VW mechanic, and by the end of the 100LS, beginning of the C1, I was a VW/Audi dealer. This seems to be a common type of factor amongst board members. I am getting very alarmed: is it only former or current VW professionals who can live happily ever after with these automobiles? No wonder Toyota is eating our lunch in the marketplace!

Pat
 

bhtooefr

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I've never touched a VW before I got mine, FWIW.

And, while I swear at it a lot, it's a car with personality, and I'm sure a cheap gasser Hondaiyotazuki would still be sworn at a lot. ;)

Then again, my car is a lot older than all of your cars... :rolleyes:
 

karlaudi

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Pat Dolan said:
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BTW: considering your post and Greg's post, it leaves me with a serious question to ponder: In the days of air-cooled VWs and two-stroke Audis, I too was a VW mechanic, and by the end of the 100LS, beginning of the C1, I was a VW/Audi dealer. This seems to be a common type of factor amongst board members. I am getting very alarmed: is it only former or current VW professionals who can live happily ever after with these automobiles? No wonder Toyota is eating our lunch in the marketplace!

Pat
My original use of the term “common rail” was made almost as an after thought and apparently too causally for many here at the TDiClub. I will state again, I do understand the difference between the various fuel systems.

I was one of the older students when I was completing a three year accredited Automotive Service program at local J.C. Many students were “well off” 18 y.o’s, but academically poor students, studying cars in college to keep their parents happy. I was in my mid-late twenties. They and many older students, especially at night class students coming from the “trades”, lived only for push-rod V8’s with carburetors. We were taught various subjects by semester. When my Fuel, Ignition, Emissions and related systems semester came around I was the only one willing to tackle the subject of fuel injection as the subject of a required written and verbal report. I received special recognition from my Instructor, who was an “old salt”, for embracing the present and future.

Until a year ago, I was keeping a Dear Old Friend’s Audi Super 90, she owned for 32 years, on the road with imported parts from Germany. Unable to buy it myself, because my wife said not now, we sold it to an Audi Dealer mechanic in the mid-West.

As you made recall the Super 90 was the first of the modern Audis sold in the US. Audi AG, then known as Auto Union NSU Audi AG, never produced a two-stroke in the US or Europe in the post war period. The Super 90 and related lesser models were derived from the Auto Union built FW102, produced until Auto Union GmbH was purchase from Mercedes-Benz in 1965 by Volkswagen AG. That car and all other post-War DKW / Auto Unions were two-strokes. The 100 LS was a purely post VW merger design.

I embrace VW / Audi design and engineering over all others, if I did not, then maybe something more disposable like a Honda or Toyota.

It was recently reported that Toyota had the largest number of recalls in North America in 2005. I am on my third Quattro and second VW diesel With about sixteen years of VW's prior to that. I turned my hobby into a profession when I got out of the Navy in 1979 and now it is a hobby again.

So exactly what do you mean by the above quote?

After all, Toyota, among others, sells it cars mostly to people who view them as appliances to be thrown away and seldom look under the hood. It has been awhile since they were in the WRC and what American would know that? CART?, give me a break. Have they fielded a car against Audi or VW anywhere in the world of Touring cars, let alone BMW, Opel, or Mercedes-Benz ?

Cheers!

Respectfully,

karlaudi
 
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v8volvo

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Just to clear up any confusion...

2.5L VE TDI I-5 (no knowledge of this new R5 TDI), Volvo turbodiesel six, and older Audi diesel and TD fives all use the Audi 5-cylinder bellhousing bolt pattern (also used in old AMC Gremlins and Porsche 924s). Does not match up at all to the VW bolt pattern as found on a 1.6/1.9 IDI or 1.9/2.0 TDI, so no swapping gonna happen there without other major work. Many people have looked into this with respect to swapping a 1.9 TDI into a Porsche 924 with the Audi 4-cylinder gasser (uses the Audi pattern, amazingly different from a VW gasser four!), and have done actual test fits and measurements to determine the difference between our TDI's bolt pattern and the bigger ones. A 2.5 TDI or 2.0TD IDI WILL bolt right into a 924, though...

The Audi TDI and IDI diesel fives and sixes both had dual timing belts and softer blocks and easier-to-warp heads than the VW IDIs and TDIs, and are not known for their power, durability, or serviceability. Engines to avoid, in short, though they all run nicely and sound gorgeous when working properly.

As far as Volvo is concerned: the old 240/260 could have the Audi 2.4L NA straight six, and the 740/760 could be had with the 2.4TD six. The 850 and earlier V70 diesels were 2.5L Audi I-5 VE TDIs, mounted transverse. Then, when Volvo redesigned the V70 in 2001(?), they built an all-aluminum 5-cylinder diesel of their own to put in the car (they call it the "D5"), which is a fabulous motor, much better than the Audi TDI5.
 
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greg123

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Well thanks guys, I now know for sure that the 1.9 won't fit on a 2.5 - i5 bolt pattern. Shame really!

Greg.
 
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