"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels"

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

-- The only reason Porsche built an SUV, is because Volkswagen was already in the early production phases of the Touareg and Porsche saw that alot of Porsche owners were buying BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi SUV's. Porsche owners pleaded, beckoned and hounded Porsche execs to build an SUV, Porsche was not interested at first. Porsche needed another German automaker to share the blame if the vehicle flopped, eg. Porsche 924,928,944,951,968, etc. etc.

Porsche owners are a finicky crowd, the first rule of thumb is: A real Porsche is rear powered. Porsche didn't want to experience the same humiliation that GM experienced with the Pontiac Aztek. German manufacturers do not recover as well after a vehicle flops. eg. Audi in the early 1990's...

The only reason Porsche would build a diesel powered vehicle is to meet (Deutsches Institut für Normung) DIN standards.
Link: http://www2.din.de/

Any attempt by Porsche to build a diesel powered production vehicle should be looked at suspiciously. Any attempt would be a half @ssed and ill hearted attempt, more so if Porsche decides to use a powerplant other than the VW 5.0 L V10. There are alot of government grants and alot of hearts to be won, especially in Europe, if Porsche would go diesel. Any attempt would definitely have hidden agendas and would be ill hearted.
Wow. I have been in the Porsche Club of America (PCA) for over 30 years and have never heard anything close to this.

Porsche built the Cayenne because it wanted to expand its market and stabilize its bottom line. Most Porsche enthusiasts derided the choice of SUV and the decision not to support major racing efforts such as LeMans etc. instead.

The 944 especially, the 951, and perhaps the 968 were major success stories, even though later in their development the market and prices changed.

There are Porsche owners who would like diesel, especially for the power and fuel mileage, but the company refuses. This is from Panorama, the official PCA magazine. Where do you get your sources??

I looked up the DIN web site you refer to and it lists nothing about Cayenne except about pepper itself.

What have you been smoking, counselor?!!
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

DIN is actually a body that would be more analogous to the ASTM in the U.S. The closest German equivalent to the U.S. EPA is the Umweltbundesamt (Federal Environment Agency). If I understand the context of the above references to DIN, it has no jurisdiction nor influence whatsoever on the marketability or otherwise of Diesel-powered vehicles, whether from Porsche or any other company.

Unlike the U.S., where government agencies like the EPA and CARB have jurisdiction over setting emissions regulations, in Europe, this is charged to the European Parliament as a set of directives, the specific one pertaining to emissions legislation being the European Council Directive 98/69/EC.

That directive does not tell an automaker what type of fuel or powerplant it's product must run on. It just sets limits on the emissions of PM, CO, HC and NOx, which must be met by specified deadlines to be legal for sale in the EU, and automakers are free to design and manufacture vehicles using any propulsion method or fuel -- gasoline, Diesel or otherwise -- as long as those regulations are met.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

I myself have owned 2 Porsches, a European (944/951) and a 1994 Porsche 911 C4 Turbo. Both those vehicles were driven hard and thrashed upon at the local race courses. And by the way, you couldn't count on one hand POC members that would "buy" a diesel powered Porsche. They may "want" one, however the distance between "want" and "buy" is a great one, and mustn't overlook ones pocketbook.
I never suggested that Porsche should look at building diesel sports cars. Commentators in Panorama have lamented Porsche's blind eye toward a diesel Cayenne. I don't know what percentage of Porsche people would actually buy one, but I'm sure many would see the advantages of a diesel powered SUV.

An economical Porsche or a diesel Porsche is not a new concept. The 4 cylinder models always had fuel economy in mind and I believe real Porsche lovers know about the (I thing they were diesel) tractors. Ferdinand was no stranger to innovation either with one of the first electric vehicles.

For many of its innovative engine improvements, Porsche advertised improved efficiency and fuel economy.

If most people are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies.......

Very few souls are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. Thanks a million for the last comment Tin Man.
You're welcome.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

Tin Man: "You know, Porsche is coming out with a four door sedan. Its going to be a gas guzzler."

Mrs. Tin Man: "Gee, you think they would know better. With the price of gas nowadays, its important."

Tin Man: "In know, go figure."
 

zing

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Pittsburgh PA
TDI
Jetta, 2006, Gray
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

it is all about perspectives............dough spit.

I guess I am in the left place at the right time??
 

Willy den CGI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Location
Sweden
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

The Porsche Cayenne and the VW Touareg interchange @ 77% of their parts. If Porsche was interested in a turbodiesel, they'd dive headfirst into the Twin Turboed 5.0 L V10 that Volkswagen poured alot of sweat, reputation and R&D into.
Well, I just saw that the old engine is banned in California. By EPA. After all, the 5-liter V10 was presented already in 2001 before new High tech was known.

Automotorsport.de


It´s too dirty and they will have to change to the 4-liter V8 from Audi. Soon a 4,2 liter will come with clean tailpipes.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

Gee, Willy


Is the 4-litre V8 TDI cleaner and superior because it uses CGI?
 

Willy den CGI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Location
Sweden
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

The material by itself makes no difference.
CGI is more rigid and that is opening up for taking out more load from smaller engines with thinner walls. Aluminium can´t stand those modern peak combustion pressures, in V-engines, but they will be followed by inlines aswell.

Tupy about CGI


By the way.....

Today Navistar is showing their new HighTech BIG BORE-diesels, with Compacted Graphite Iron ( CGI) in the blocks.

Future material.
NOW

Trucking Info
 

leebo

Veteran Member
Joined
May 12, 2004
Location
Central Florida - V10 TDI
TDI
Black 2004 Touareg V10 TDI
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

The Cayenne Turbo is faster, but more expensive (than the BMW x5 4.8IS)...
Ah...but I will easily pass them both when they have to stop for gasoline! (Same for the W12!)



Seriously though...I've not measured 0-60 times in my V10, but there are a couple of others that have and show 0-60 @ 6.2 seconds. The acceleration is pretty incredible, but the really "odd" thing is the sound the truck makes as the engine pounds through the gears...

As you might expect, the V10 TDI sounds nothing like the throaty roar of a similarly taxed V8. My friend (who was driving a Mustang convertable) said it was the scariest thing he's ever heard overtake him. He described it as a "screaming freight train straight from hell."

 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

The Cayenne Turbo is faster, but more expensive (than the BMW x5 4.8IS)...
Ah...but I will easily pass them both when they have to stop for gasoline! (Same for the W12!)



Seriously though...I've not measured 0-60 times in my V10, but there are a couple of others that have and show 0-60 @ 6.2 seconds. The acceleration is pretty incredible, but the really "odd" thing is the sound the truck makes as the engine pounds through the gears...

As you might expect, the V10 TDI sounds nothing like the throaty roar of a similarly taxed V8. My friend (who was driving a Mustang convertable) said it was the scariest thing he's ever heard overtake him. He described it as a "screaming freight train straight from hell."


Oooh Oohh, how's about some sound/vid clips?
 

leebo

Veteran Member
Joined
May 12, 2004
Location
Central Florida - V10 TDI
TDI
Black 2004 Touareg V10 TDI
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

Oooh Oohh, how's about some sound/vid clips?
Unfortunately, I don't have any sound clips of the engine from outside the vehicle when I'm pushing it - and it's pretty quiet on the inside.

All I have are a couple of music videos I made. In the first one, you <u>can</u> hear the engine start at the very beginning. It was pretty funny because (completely unplanned), you can hear my girlfriend say, "That's AWESOME!" right after it cranks...



35MB Music Video with Start-up Sound (but otherwise a bit boring)

66MB Music Video showing the value of 4XMotion (more interesting)
 

Puebla

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Location
NATIONAL CITY, CA.
TDI
MK4 TDI GT25, PP520'S, FMIC, STAGE 5 SOFTWARE
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

A Porsche turbodiesel AWD would be really cool though...
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"

On the subject of Diesel Porsches, Lamborghini actually got its start building tractors and the like. I recall reading somewhere that Lamborghini was actually studying a Diesel-engined Gallardo.
Why? <shrug> but it's a neat thought... As much as I like Diesels, some types of cars are just better suited for a high-revving gasser.

Link.
 

Jack_Berry

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Location
Racine Wis
TDI
02 jetta sedan
i am not gonna read thru all the posts so let me say here, maybe repeat, porsche does not want to acknowledge their truck engine for gt racing even it would allow them another way to go. they cannot diesel the 3.8 flat 6 so there is no diesel in their future even IF the diesel quattro kicks its butt in sales.

this way they keep the world of gt sportscar racing prisioners of their own lack of forward movement away from the flat 6. as long as they race that engine only in gt their competition must scale down to that performance level.

let me add tectonic union re-think dis-fuctionality to the list of acronyms.
 

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Last edited:

ddorrer

Veteran Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
WVa
TDI
2015 GSW Tdi, 2012 JSW Tdi DSG (Sold w/80k miles), 2010 Sportwagen TDI 6spd (Traded)
Boxer Diesel

If Subaru can diesel their flat 4, Porsche can diesel a flat 6...albeit heavy.
 

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
If Subaru can diesel their flat 4, Porsche can diesel a flat 6...albeit heavy.
I am guessing that Porsche (now VW has the over all problem) did not want to do the R & D necessary to support the diesel into its 911 line up. It probably goes without saying they have done 45-55 years of constant improvement on its gassers. The first US 911 was in 1965.

You have probably looked at it in much GREATER detail than I, but I had read in passing the Subaru diesel does not deliver good mpg numbers and in relation to its gassers even worst percentage wise. Bottom line is mpg would not be a factor for a (gasser) Suburu owner to switch.
 

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
"does not deliver good mpg numbers"
source please?

<< my numbers are here.

You in the Irish ( european) market/s are in a better position to know. The US market/s has NEVER had Subaru diesels. The disconnect should be obvious here. More germane: there are a host to hosts of issues that are strictly strawman in talking of Euro vs US issues.

Here is one. 03 TDI VW Jetta related. Keep in mind (US market passenger car) diesels are an EXTREME minority position. If this is vague or you doubt what I am am saying, etc., fire away.

Euro VW Jetta's not only have more options, i.e. engines, etc, but the closest to the US market option also gets better fuel mileage. So for example that MY's had a 6 sp m and bigger injectors and across the pond, as they say, got 2 mpg BETTER AND more HP/TORQUE, in that configuration, than the US markets version : that: ... got less hp/ power, smaller injectors and 5 sp manual, etc, etc. It also was reputed to cost the oem MORE money to comply with US standards. !? I guess getting 2 mpg worse is better than 2 mpg better!!??

Not that I am complaining about getting a range of 44 to 62 mpg with an EPA of 42/49 overall 45 (?) . At the time, all things considered, it was the BEST mpg. That years' 03 touted Prius might have advertised their EPA, but they got no where near that mpg in the real world. You probably looked at an 03 Prius in utter disdain. Here, it was being touted as the miracle cure to end passenger car emissions pollution singlehandly. Needless to say that was NOT even close.

It really begs the question what is wrong with 2 mpg BETTER, more hp/torque and a 6 speed manual?? (like yours my numbers are posted in the signature)
 
Last edited:

Ben Dur

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Location
Pensacola FL
TDI
2000 VW golf tdi
i dont think there is much argument against (in general) diesels get better mileage.
diesel itself produces higher BTU that gasoline. thus for a given vehicle will use less fuel to move.

i think much of the disconnect with diesels is the confusion about emissions and "global warming." Diesel has a higher carbon dioxide output per gallon than gasoline. (22lbs per gallon vs 19.5 roughly) That argument doesnt hold up to me, as i see i dont burn gallons per commute, rather i drive miles per commute. If i was to drive a 60 mile commute in my diesel i would produce something shy of 30 lbs of carbon dioxide, whereas in a comparable(performance and option/size etc)gasser i would probably produce closer to 40lbs.

however the two thought trains are generally not combine. Hyper-milers almost never break there mileage down by carbon units/mile, while the "save the earth" community frequently point to the fact that a gallon of diesel produces a larger carbon footprint as compared to a gallon of gasoline.

but to digress back to the main topic, porsche's demographic is likely not concerned with emission, mileage, or their personal carbon footprint. and a 1.9 liter diesel engine will never produce the same kind of power that a 1.9 liter gasser will, and thus it is not suitable for most sports cars in the eyes of the vast majority.


edited to fix my miswording (which destroyed my argument)
 
Last edited:

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
i dont think there is much argument against (in general) diesels get better mileage.
diesel itself produces higher BTU that gasoline. thus for a given vehicle will use less fuel to move.

i think much of the disconnect with diesels is the confusion about emissions and "global warming." Diesel has a higher carbon dioxide output per mile than gasoline. (22lbs per gallon vs 19.5 roughly) That argument doesnt hold up to me, as i see i dont burn gallons per commute, rather i drive miles per commute. If i was to drive a 60 mile commute in my diesel i would produce something shy of 30 lbs of carbon dioxide, whereas in a comparable(performance and option/size etc)gasser i would probably produce closer to 40lbs.

however the two thought trains are generally not combine. Hyper-milers almost never break there mileage down by carbon units/mile, while the "save the earth" community frequently point to the fact that a gallon of diesel produces a larger carbon footprint as compared to a gallon of gasoline.

but to digress back to the main topic, porsche's demographic is likely not concerned with emission, mileage, or their personal carbon footprint. and a 1.9 liter diesel engine will never produce the same kind of power that a 1.9 liter gasser will, and thus it is not suitable for most sports cars in the eyes of the vast majority.
Just to put some realities on it BMW's 335 D TTDI has what a 3.0 liter engine in line 6 cylinder twin turbo diesel. It yields what 265 hp and 425 # ft of torque?

So if Porsche were to get into the game, it would have to what? Offer a minimum of 2 diesel configurations? 3.6/3.8L? Right away, the transmissions are inadequate. If the same hp/power ratios are used, we are talking (baseline 3.0L 265 hp/425 # ft. ) 3.6 l ,318 hp 510 # ft, 3.8 l, 337 hp/540 # ft. These are literally MONSTER torque numbers and percentages compared to Porsches 3.6 l 288# ft of torque.
 
Last edited:

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
^ Ben Dur's data is wrong. It's true that burning Diesel fuel emits more CO2 at the point of use for a given mass and volume than gasoline. However, a typical Diesel vehicle will consume on the average 30% less fuel than a comparable gasoline-fuelled vehicle. The net effect is that CO2 emissions are generally lower for Diesel versions of the same model vehicle, often by fairly wide margin. Look beyond tank-to-wheel and consider the production process of Diesel fuel from crude oil (well-to-tank, or well-to-wheel), and the CO2 balance looks even better in favour of Diesel.
 

Ben Dur

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Location
Pensacola FL
TDI
2000 VW golf tdi
Just to put some realities on it BMW's 335 D TTDI has what a 3.0 liter engine in line 6 cylinder twin turbo diesel. It yields what 265 hp and 425 # ft of torque?

So if Porsche were to get into the game, it would have to what? Offer a minimum of 2 diesel configurations? 3.6/3.8L? Right away, the transmissions are inadequate. If the same hp/power ratios are used, we are talking (baseline 3.0L 265 hp/425 # ft. ) 3.6 l ,318 hp 510 # ft, 3.8 l, 337 hp/540 # ft. These are literally MONSTER torque numbers and percentages compared to Porsches 3.6 l 288# ft of torque.
to be fair... the e46 m3 has a 3.2 that produces more than 300hp NA (not turbo)... give it up man its not up for debate. Gas power is further along than diesel right now as far as power output is concerned


^ Ben Dur's data is wrong. It's true that burning Diesel fuel emits more CO2 at the point of use for a given mass and volume than gasoline. However, a typical Diesel vehicle will consume on the average 30% less fuel than a comparable gasoline-fuelled vehicle. The net effect is that CO2 emissions are generally lower for Diesel versions of the same model vehicle, often by fairly wide margin. Look beyond tank-to-wheel and consider the production process of Diesel fuel from crude oil (well-to-tank, or well-to-wheel), and the CO2 balance looks even better in favour of Diesel.
ok well really that only strengthens MY point. if you read my post i explained that the emissions of diesel are worse for a given gallon, not for a given mile. the diesel wins, but you dont have to convince me, im on board. its the other 99% of the US.
 
Top