NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Marc_TDI · May 13, 2013

I believe my TDI is fixed, after all that messing around replacing 3 items, it drives fine now.
I'd also like to add that the hesitation and errant stalling out has also disappeared, this little headache was with the car since I bought it, took it in 3 times but they couldn't fix it. this stalling out would happen say once every few weeks.

I get the feeling this car left the factory with a faulty harness, it took a few years for the component to finally break down. I'd be at a red light, it turns green...I depress the accelerator and let off the clutch and the engine would make a slight shudder and die, it was as if there was no power at all.
Now..I know because of the torque a diesel has, it shouldn't do this, a simple demonstration is to be at a stand still, no brakes and you slowly let off the clutch...and voila it starts roiling forward..even on a slight incline..and it won't shudder or stall out as would a gasser.

So in the end this was NOT a HPFP fatality.

Hiley made good on all of this and I didn't have to pay, it was as-it-should-have covered by the 5 year warranty.
As for the "Senior" Service Advisor Chris out there at Hiley, both his title and his attitude need servicing...he seems more interested in playing CYA, so steer clear of him.
I may...in a few years get a Passat TDI. but for now...I'll be keping the Jetta TDI as I think it's a better car that most of what's out there from other makers in it's class.

I don't care how they wrap up mediocre...."eco-boost" is silly..gimmie a TDI!

amy1000 · May 13, 2013

Agree...Gimmie TDI! When my 2010 Jetta TDI was in the shop for more than 45 days over three months I had opportunity to drive 2012 loaners...diesels, gassers, Passats, Jettas. Golfs.... they all seemed like put-puts (dogs) and the quality of the vehicles did not compare to my 2010. Now over 7 months since they finally replace my fuel system...knock wood, no HPFP issues...hopefully it will continue to be a nonissue!

tdiatlast · May 14, 2013

Marc_TDI said:
I believe my TDI is fixed, after all that messing around replacing 3 items, it drives fine now.
I'd also like to add that the hesitation and errant stalling out has also disappeared, this little headache was with the car since I bought it, took it in 3 times but they couldn't fix it. this stalling out would happen say once every few weeks.

I get the feeling this car left the factory with a faulty harness, it took a few years for the component to finally break down. I'd be at a red light, it turns green...I depress the accelerator and let off the clutch and the engine would make a slight shudder and die, it was as if there was no power at all.
Now..I know because of the torque a diesel has, it shouldn't do this, a simple demonstration is to be at a stand still, no brakes and you slowly let off the clutch...and voila it starts roiling forward..even on a slight incline..and it won't shudder or stall out as would a gasser.

So in the end this was NOT a HPFP fatality.

Hiley made good on all of this and I didn't have to pay, it was as-it-should-have covered by the 5 year warranty.
As for the "Senior" Service Advisor Chris out there at Hiley, both his title and his attitude need servicing...he seems more interested in playing CYA, so steer clear of him.
I may...in a few years get a Passat TDI. but for now...I'll be keping the Jetta TDI as I think it's a better car that most of what's out there from other makers in it's class.

I don't care how they wrap up mediocre...."eco-boost" is silly..gimmie a TDI!

It's very cool to read a calm, reasoned entry after a dealer experience, especially with what, for the time being, is a resolved issue.
I hope your issues don't return. Good luck!

specsalot · May 14, 2013

Softrockrenegade said:
The 2014 models will still use the cp4.1 but with a similar fuel system to the passat .

I think Mk6 fuel systems are not up to the next set of emission regulations, despite being more precise and better controlled with the piezo injectors.

Softrockrenegade · May 15, 2013

specsalot said:
I think Mk6 fuel systems are not up to the next set of emission regulations, despite being more precise and better controlled with the piezo injectors.

The passat uses solenoid injectors and adblue though. Just going by what I have seen an read.

WutGas? · May 15, 2013

The Passat isn't an MK6....:shrug:

bhtooefr · May 15, 2013

I'll note that the solenoid injectors that are used in the CKRA are advertised by Bosch as being faster, more precise, and cheaper than the piezo injectors.

MonsterTDI09 · May 16, 2013

bhtooefr said:
I'll note that the solenoid injectors that are used in the CKRA are advertised by Bosch as being faster, more precise, and cheaper than the piezo injectors.

Does that depend on what PSI the injectors is used for?

SalsaRed2010 · May 20, 2013

Been ages since I have posted anything, but I have been following this closely as I have a 2010 JSW TDI.

I have an update on the next recall based on a service visit I had for my car. I asked the tech during a ride to nail down the front-end vibration in my car when I asked about any issues they may have had with the fuel pumps (this was Karen Radley VW in northern Virginia BTW) and he said they have seen a few, but claimed they were all misfuled. He also said VW has been paying for all the cars impacted, even though it was driver error.

He then said there was a new recall pending to which he said they were alerted to late Friday. Seems VW is going to recall the cars to modify the fuel-filler to make it difficult to fuel up with anything other than diesel. There was also supposed to be a filter install that would prevent the widespread damage in the event of a "misfuel."

Wish I had more details. He did not say when the recall would go out, but he said the service crew was just briefed on this. So, it looks like VW is sticking to the mis-fueling story and not addressing the pump design.

Lightflyer1 · May 20, 2013

2013's come with a misfuel device in the filler neck. I would imagine this is what they are speaking of. 2micron also has developed 2 products to limit the carnage if it happens. Wonder if they are copying his idea?

JSWTDI09 · May 20, 2013

SalsaRed2010 said:
....There was also supposed to be a filter install that would prevent the widespread damage in the event of a "misfuel."

This is very interesting. I wonder how this additional filter compares to 2micron's design. This makes me wonder how closely VW has been following this site and the work done here to minimize collateral damage caused by an HPFP failure. I guess we shall see what VW does.

Have Fun!

Don

kjclow · May 20, 2013

Sounds more like they will be putting the filler neck restictors in the older cars that didn't have them. What a cheap a$$ way to get around the HFPF issues. Although, I guess it is better than the bright yellow stickers. Extremely marginally better but...

kjclow · May 20, 2013

SalsaRed2010 said:
I asked the tech during a ride to nail down the front-end vibration in my car ...

Could be due to a bad rim. Putting a new rim on mine took care of a lot of vibration.

GTIDan · May 20, 2013

Not sure how you mis fuel the TDI. My 2010 TDI has a neck obtrusion of sorts and the nozzles out here in LaLa land have spring like device. Don't get it?

bhtooefr · May 21, 2013

What do you mean by a "spring like device"?

Here in Ohio, if you put a gas nozzle in a pre-2013 TDI, it just fits. Loosely, but it fits. Then you fill the tank, start the car, and shred the HPFP.

The 2013 restrictor is designed so a nozzle has to be 24-25 mm, instead of 20-21 mm, to open the filler neck.

FloridaJohn · May 21, 2013

SalsaRed2010 said:
Seems VW is going to recall the cars to modify the fuel-filler to make it difficult to fuel up with anything other than diesel. There was also supposed to be a filter install that would prevent the widespread damage in the event of a "misfuel."

I can see VW replacing the filler neck with the new design on the '13 cars. Since they seem to believe all the problems are misfuels, that would eliminate a large number of those.

I would guess the additional filter would go in the return line from the HPFP to the tank. VW hasn't seemed too keen on replacing fuel tanks anymore (from what I have read here), so that could potentially remove that expense/liability from them. However, that seems awfully proactive for VW, so I am skeptical that will actually happen. This is the same company that thought a yellow sticker would cure the problem.

We shall see what happens, should be interesting.

03_01_TDI · May 21, 2013

^ I think the math is starting to be more clear to them. Several thousands per repair and a ruined relations with the customer or a few dollars for a return filter and a new tank filler tube.

Second Turbo · May 21, 2013

Managing but not solving

> Since they seem to believe all the problems are misfuels ...

Not necessarily. All that matter is that enough of the fails are misfuels, such that the recall kit is economically justified. This doesn't solve the problem, but could dramatically reduce VW's out-of-pocket on obvious driver errors, assuming that driver error is that common.

We'll see if user misfuels are actually are significant percentage of failures. VW may well learn that the problem is not always a user error at the pump, but is often something before pre-nozzle.

The recall may also increase driver annoyance, if this kit is incompatible with trucker pump nozzles (be sure to get an adaptor).

None of this was a big problem on pre-CR TDIs, of course. And I see no signs that VW is going to do anything meaningful to address the core design goof prior to MY 2015. They've allowed this to fester for 4-5 years already.

bhtooefr · May 21, 2013

They're still going to use the CP4.1, so MY2015 won't fix the inherent flaw, either, but the Passats seem to have mitigated it.

Second Turbo · May 21, 2013

What are new odds ...

> ... but the Passats seem to have mitigated it.

And it might have been you that reported here that the MY14s are going to be more Passat-like fuel wise.

The interesting bit of today's news is the filter, whatever it may be. If it is indeed something that can contain the failure of a Botch CP4.1, that would mean that a pump failure is just a pump failure. It could reduce the odds enough that buying a CR is no longer a major financial risk.

One thing about the filler neck kit - it makes it dramatically safer to loan your CR to a relative

.

FloridaJohn · May 21, 2013

Second Turbo said:
The interesting bit of today's news is the filter, whatever it may be. If it is indeed something that can contain the failure of a Botch CP4.1, that would mean that a pump failure is just a pump failure.

With just a return filter, a HPFP failure will still damage the injectors and the lines between the HPFP and the injectors. You would still need something like 2micron's adapter to avoid getting trash in the injectors.

However, the new filter will reduce a lot of the labor charges in addition to reducing how many components have to be changed after a HPFP failure.

bhtooefr · May 21, 2013

Basically, everything that fails is the expensive bits, but the easy bits to replace.

padlock · May 21, 2013

Has there been any analysis on the number of '13 failures compared to earlier model years in the same time frame (ie. first 6 months)?

If the number is substantially lower, then it would be reasonable to give credit to the misfueling prevention measures, which would validate VW's claim that misfuelings where a common cause of the failures.

SalsaRed2010 · May 21, 2013

Automotive News

May 21, 2013 - 4:36 pm ET

WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen plans to refit more than a quarter million 2009-12 diesel cars to prevent North American customers from mistakenly pumping gasoline into the fuel tanks.

The service action covers 209,500 cars in the United States and 51,600 in Canada. Affected models are the TDI versions of the 2009-12 Jetta, 2010-12 Golf and 2009-12 Jetta SportWagen, called the Golf Wagon in Canada.

In a notice sent to VW dealers last week and obtained by Automotive News today, VW said it will begin notifying customers of the service campaign on May 28.

"As diesel engine passenger vehicles become more popular, auto manufacturers have seen an increase in the number of misfueling cases where diesel engine vehicles are mistakenly fueled with gasoline," according to the notice. "The resulting fuel system contamination can lead to costly repairs that are not covered under warranty."

The company said it will pay for authorized dealers to add a misfueling guard and fuel filler neck cap to affected 2009-12 vehicles.

Beginning with 2013 vehicles, VW redesigned its fuel fillers to accept only diesel nozzles. Gasoline nozzles are smaller than diesel nozzles. But with one of the new TDI fuel fillers, if a driver tries to insert a gasoline nozzle instead of a diesel nozzle, the fuel tank gate will remain closed.

See full article here: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#axzz2Txkb23re

SalsaRed2010 · May 21, 2013

Guess my tech was right on the money with the heads up this week.

Lightflyer1 · May 21, 2013

Except no mention of a filter. VW seems to be ready to blame "all" issues on customer misfueling. Now that they have "fixed" the issue NHTSA will close the case.

mysql · May 21, 2013

padlock said:
Has there been any analysis on the number of '13 failures compared to earlier model years in the same time frame (ie. first 6 months)?

If the number is substantially lower, then it would be reasonable to give credit to the misfueling prevention measures, which would validate VW's claim that misfuelings where a common cause of the failures.

Would be worthless. Need longer sample time.

We already know the hpfp design isn't fixed, and it's still prone to damage from water, gasoline, etc.

Every year we get people asking if the failure rates on Golfs are as bad as wagons, or if the new model fails as much as the previous. Maybe we should see if failure rates are uniform based on color

mysql · May 21, 2013

Lightflyer1 said:
Except no mention of a filter. VW seems to be ready to blame "all" issues on customer misfueling. Now that they have "fixed" the issue NHTSA will close the case.

It'll be interesting to see what VW has to say for themselves a year after all of the vehicles have the smaller neck. Customer must have used a funnel and poured gasoline into the fuel tank!

NYC-TDI · May 21, 2013

SalsaRed2010 said:
The company said it will pay for authorized dealers to add a misfueling guard and fuel filler neck cap to affected 2009-12 vehicles.

What...you mean those bold yellow stickers aren't working?

NYC-TDI · May 21, 2013

Lightflyer1 said:
VW seems to be ready to blame "all" issues on customer misfueling. Now that they have "fixed" the issue NHTSA will close the case.

This is my fear. VW installs this fuel guard and then proceeds to deny warranty coverage when HPFP fails on a car with the new guard. I predict the first instance of such behavior will result in a mad rush of CR owners dumping their cars. I know I will.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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