p0088 and p0087 low and high rail pressure

06dieselpower · Jun 3, 2012

the car hhas been going into limp mode and glow plug light flashing and finally just threw a check engine light so i stop at a autozone to pull the DTC's and came up with those, is there ay common causes of this, i hopemy HPFP isn't going out!

06dieselpower · Jun 4, 2012

is there somee thinngs that i could look at or do before going t a dealer?

JSWTDI09 · Jun 4, 2012

06dieselpower said:
is there somee thinngs that i could look at or do before going t a dealer?

You could open up your fuel filter canister and check for the presence of little pieces of metal. Let's hope is is a bad pressure sensor or pressure regulator. If not, it could be the dreaded HPFP failure.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. I would not try driving it. I would have it towed to the dealer. Are you still under warranty? Some out of warranty HPFP failures have been covered by VW.

06dieselpower · Jun 4, 2012

i bought it used around 62k and now has 72k on it so it is out of warranty but i changed thefilter and cleaned out the canister and there was just a lil bit of rust colored sediment in the botom but no chunks of metal that are big enough to recognize at least, but i thought it was very clean for the most part. i gues i will take it t the dealer and get a diagnosis for it and see,

06dieselpower · Jun 5, 2012

hauled it to the dealer and they just called and sad that they think it may be a pssible fuel contamination and it will cost 400$ to pull the HPFP for a complete diagnosis but will go torwards repair

06dieselpower · Jun 5, 2012

i have heard of people having a fuel analysis done when it is claimed to be contaminated and causing HPFP failures is this something that volkswagen will do or i have done to prove that it was not bad fuel.

Plus 3 Golfer · Jun 5, 2012

VW has covered some HPFP repairs beyond the warranty period. Do you have your recent fuel receipts showing you filled up from diesel pumps? You may want to go to the dealer and get a fuel sample. You need to ask if the dealer is sending the fuel for testing.

VW will likely test the fuel if they are calling the shots. The dealer may simply look for metal contamination in the fuel metering valve, filter, and tank. If none, the dealer will likely drain tank and lines and fill with diesel and try to start. That's likely the $400 quote but you should ask what the dealer is doing for the $400.

Usually, VWoA calls the shots but since this is out of warranty the dealer likely has not contacted VW. If the HPFP needs replaced and dealer won't cover, I'd email VWCC and open a case indicating that you know of the NHTSA's investigation, that VW has covered some out of warranty, that VW has redesigned the HPFP several times since MY 2009, that you've only filled up at diesel pumps, and that VW should cover due to their poorly designed pumps.

06dieselpower · Jun 6, 2012

yeah, i have my recent fuel reciepts and they said for 400 tat they have to remove the pump, what that does for the diagnosis i'm not sure? what is NHTSA. but they haven't said that the pump is bad yet (i drove it on the trailer and off the trailer and around before that for a month. the glow plug light would ocassionally flash and cut power, but you could resttart car and it would go away, and i figured it was DPF getting clogged since it seemed to cure it when it rran highway speeds rather than putting around) but they did say that thepump could be going bad from "contaminated fuel" but had to remove the pump for further diagnosis

Plus 3 Golfer · Jun 6, 2012

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has an investigation ongoing (EA11003) on the HPFP failures. If your HPFP has failed, please report your failure to NHTSA. There are a number of threads on this forum on the investigation.

A HPFP failure can be diagnosed without removing the pump. I had a HPFP failure with no metal contamination and a VW tech gave them instructions on how to test the pump without removing. This is why I doubt the dealer has contacted VW.

I'm assuming the dealer has ruled out the in-tank pump and the intermediate pump.

06dieselpower · Jun 6, 2012

they have called back and said that thereis a lot of "dirt" in the tank and for $2900 that they will have to replace hpfp, fuel pessure regulator, rail pressure regulator, clean tank out and fressh fuel and that they will be %95 sure tht that wil fix it but can't promiss. this is at flow volkswagen in greensboro, NC and i have a fuel filter tat i just changed right before taking it and it looks clean to me with 10k on it and i have it here in a ziploc bag. if it is that much dirt in the tank thatthey claim and has caused the hpfp (which is still running when arrived at dealer) to go bad then wouldn't it be all in te filter as well? please help!!!!! with the necceesary actions i need to take to make sure that i am not getting screwed. do i need to call VW customer care? ask for a sample or analysis done, or at least show me the contaminants?

Nutsnbolts · Jun 6, 2012

They are replacing a LOT of parts there without doing a lot of diagnosis. If the fuel pressure in the rail goes high, it would not be from dirt, unless dirt was making the regulating valves stick. There is a valve on the HPFP called a "dosing valve" that controls the volume/pressure of the fuel exiting the pump, and the rail pressure regulator controls the pressure within the rail. I'm thinking that if the dosing valve on the pump acts goofy, then the regulating valve may not be able to keep up with changes in the pump output.

That said, if the pump is self-destructing, then metal flakes introduced into the fuel return system can enter into either valve, by being re-circulated into the pump supply system and can indeed cause it to stick. But, dirt in the fuel tank shouldnt be able to make it back into the fuel supply through the filter.

-Rich

Plus 3 Golfer · Jun 6, 2012

06dieselpower said:
they have called back and said that thereis a lot of "dirt" in the tank and for $2900 that they will have to replace hpfp, fuel pessure regulator, rail pressure regulator, clean tank out and fressh fuel and that they will be %95 sure tht that wil fix it but can't promiss. this is at flow volkswagen in greensboro, NC and i have a fuel filter tat i just changed right before taking it and it looks clean to me with 10k on it and i have it here in a ziploc bag. if it is that much dirt in the tank thatthey claim and has caused the hpfp (which is still running when arrived at dealer) to go bad then wouldn't it be all in te filter as well? please help!!!!! with the necceesary actions i need to take to make sure that i am not getting screwed. do i need to call VW customer care? ask for a sample or analysis done, or at least show me the contaminants?

I think it's time to email / call VW Customer Care and complain.

Tell the dealer not to proceed and that you are calling CC. So, it looks like the dealer is blaming contaminated fuel. Is the "dirt" metal? I would go to the dealer and observe / take pics of the contamination and get a sample. Take a magnet and see if it's magnetic. The fact that you had rust colored sediment on the bottom of the FF canister likely indicates the HPFP cam / roller was wearing.

You would think that the old filter would have particles in it. You could cut a section of the pleats out and examine with a magnifying glass. 4k miles after this examination of my FF my HPFP failed.

dweisel · Jun 6, 2012

No matter how much dirt is in the fuel tank it should not get thru the fuel filter and make the hpfp fail. This dealer does not sound like they know what they are doing. As others have said the contamination the dealer is saying is dirt could be metal particles from a failing hpfp. Also the hpfp does not need to be removed to check to see if its failing. This is another tip off that the dealer is incompetent.

06dieselpower · Jun 6, 2012

i did cal customer care to see ifit was possble to get any help on the bill and all they said is that it is out of wwarranty (72k)and bought second hand annd they can't do anything for me. but i will go by th dealer this afternoon and talk with them directly and see if they can show me the contaminants. is there anything else i can do or talk to?

Plus 3 Golfer · Jun 6, 2012

You got the standard response from CC. I'll bet if you were the original owner, they might have helped.

I'd at minimum send an email to VW indicating that you are not pleased with the response and state why you believe the HPFP is simply not of adequate design to handle retail US fuel. There are many facts buried through out the HPFP threads that can make a compelling argument including stuff from Bosch, VW, Delphi and so forth. If you are persistent, VW may be willing to help out.

One issue is that you did buy a used car out of warranty. Unless there was fraud, it's caveat empitor.

If you go forward with the repair at the dealer, I could see this ultimately involving replacing more parts like the injectors, other pumps and so forth. Is there a TDI guru near Browns Summit that you can take your car to or maybe DIY? Here's a list of prices from late 2011 for a complete fuel system replacement and here's a link to the Boraparts parts kit. From your descriptions it looks like the dealer is replacing 3 parts:

High Pressure Fuel pump - 03L130755A - $1215
Fuel Distributor - 03L130389 - $390
Fuel Pressure Regulator 057130764H - $480 (not usually shown as being replaced) on-line price $351

JSWTDI09 · Jun 6, 2012

There are actually quite a few listings in North Carolina on the "Trusted TDI Mechanics" list. https://docs.google.com/document/preview?id=1Lucw8ALCkLtt79MMw9JOG1E_dX57-raBhbhIFdtHnEQ&pli=1

You might want to check and see if any of these guys are anywhere near you. This dealer does not appear to really be very competent. Incompetence + high prices does not bode well for customer satisfaction.

Have Fun!

Don

Plus 3 Golfer · Jun 6, 2012

I forgot to mention that like nutsnbolts said are they just throwing parts at it because the tank has some debris in it. Is there debris in other places in the fuel system like the fuel metering valve? Maybe the low / high pressure codes are simply because the fuel pressure regulator is acting up and that's all that needs replaced.

Once the dealer starts the repair, you'll have little recourse if they say more parts need replaced.

06dieselpower · Jun 6, 2012

BIG NEWS! after talking directly with the tech, it's just low lift pump(in tank pump) pressure due to trashy fuel debris clogging up the suction screen. and they want $2,986 to resolve the issue; $292 in take fuel pump, $504 fuel pressure regulator, $970 fuel rail regulator, clean tank out, new fuel. 3 grand sounds like a lot of money for low fuel pressure, i told him to see if he could clean it out and see if there's metal (which it didn't look like) if not clean it out put it back together and make sure it has good fuel pressure! if it is still acting up is there a way to diagnose just fuel pressure regulator??

06dieselpower · Jun 6, 2012

i guess the service rep just heard fuel pump and said yes when i asked if it was the hpfp

Plus 3 Golfer · Jun 6, 2012

Call back and get the part numbers.

So then why does the dealer think you need anything other than the fuel tank cleaned, intake screen cleaned, and new fuel filter? Then they can test the flow rate of the in tank pump. If it's good, start it up and check pressures. If bad, replace intank pump.

Yes, they can check pressures will running. If it runs good with no codes, why replace the regulators.

06dieselpower · Jun 6, 2012

yeah, thats my plan. i still can't get over wanting me to spend 3k on low lift pump pressure and the lift pump probably isn't even bad just screen clogged, i got the part numbers on the note sheet that the tech gave the service rep and i have a neighbor who is the parts manager at the audi dealer and will get me a discount if needed.

Nutsnbolts · Jun 7, 2012

Now I think that we're getting somewhere. As Plus 3 Golfer said, the only thing that should be done is cleaning of the tank and lift-pump screen, then further diagnostics can be done if warranted. But I suspect that the cleaning will be all that it needs, and if it were my own car it would be all that I would do before driving it and seeing if the problem is resolved.

-Rich

Elfnmagik · Jun 9, 2012

06dieselpower said:
yeah, thats my plan. i still can't get over wanting me to spend 3k on low lift pump pressure and the lift pump probably isn't even bad just screen clogged, i got the part numbers on the note sheet that the tech gave the service rep and i have a neighbor who is the parts manager at the audi dealer and will get me a discount if needed.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=347132

06dieselpower · Jul 3, 2012

well now that i have adequate lift pump pressure it is still showing the same codes, so i end up takeing it back to the dealer and they said they have to replace several high pressure parts; hpfp, rail pressure reggulator and something else, so i pick itback up a take it to one of the trusted tdi mechanics listed in NC, german imports in kannapolis and they are saying it is a hpfp so i have found a brand new no core from diesel equipment company for $760 so i guess i am going to grab that and was hopingto try and swap it myself and wondering if anyone has a good link for te remove and replace or if you recommended a certain manual like a chilton or a haynes,

Nutsnbolts · Jul 5, 2012

The only manual that I can recommend is the Bentley manual. It will have every piece of information that you need on the car, far more than Chiltion and Haynes.

-Rich

p0088 and p0087 low and high rail pressure

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