paying off car and thinking of conversion

philngrayce

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Nah, never mind. I'm sure yours is just fine. You know what you are doing.:rolleyes:
Pretty much my point is that none of us knows what we are doing here. Certainly not me, I don't think you and most definitely not Drivbiwire. We are learning as we go, but to say EGR=Fail is incorrect. It may, it may not. For whatever reason, that has not been true in my (and other's) case. Certainly I wouldn't recomend that anyone not delete their EGR, but I also would not tell them they are bound to fal if they don't.
 

A5INKY

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Pretty much my point is that none of us knows what we are doing here. Certainly not me, I don't think you and most definitely not Drivbiwire. We are learning as we go, but to say EGR=Fail is incorrect. It may, it may not. For whatever reason, that has not been true in my (and other's) case. Certainly I wouldn't recomend that anyone not delete their EGR, but I also would not tell them they are bound to fal if they don't.
I won't waste anymore time trying to convince you, that is a fools errand.

There is a big difference between you and me and our approach. You have faith, I don't. When my car is not working as it should I take things apart and figure out why. If it can be fixed/mitigated for the future, I do it. You seem prone to punt w/o asking why. If you are using WVO in conjunction with the EGR system on a 2006 BRM jetta, it will will foul the EGR valve cascading into choking of the intake side of the head. When I learned this reality I made changes that prevents that failure mode. Even with photographic evidence you choose to keep running on faith that yours is somehow more special.

In my view, you are a WVO zealot. You are long on belief and short on facts. You said above the you are learning as you go, apparently not from anyone that does not agree with your faith.

In the end it won't matter. Not you, your car, nor your WVO system will get a free pass on your failure to recognize the inevitability of how swiftly your EGR/WVO system are conspiring to plug your head. I would give it 50K miles from the time of conversion, tops. EGR+WVO=FAIL, perhaps especially on the BRM due to how it's EGR valve works.

Until then, keep spreading that WVO bliss. I know you will.
 
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philngrayce

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If you have read my previous posts, it should be pretty obvious I am not a zealot. I recommend not runing WVO far more often than I recommend running it. I created a whole thread discussing the reasons not to use WVO.

I also point out false, incomplete and misleading statements when I see them. Most often from anti-WVOers, but also from those on the other side.

I'm just about to turn 50K on WVO; the car runs like new. Let me know if you want to increase your fail mileage estimate.
 

A5INKY

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I'm just about to turn 50K on WVO; the car runs like new. Let me know if you want to increase your fail mileage estimate.
No need. It won't be long.

Phil, I wish you no ill will. I truly wish these challenges did not exist as I love WVO fuel as a concept. I find myself in a very small minority of people that are not WVO haters but also technically inclined enough to be able to objectively examine and mitigate (some of the) problems WVO creates. I am not condemning it out of hand. I am just sharing my findings to add to the pool of knowledge. My latest findings are leading me to the realization that not every single WVO issue can be engineered around to my full satisfaction. My bar is set a bit higher than most because I see a relatively high quality car that with reasonable care should last at least 500K miles. I feel I have and will continue to do some excessive service and repair work to make that happen with WVO in the equation.

I have relationships with many WVO users and people that aspire to greater sustainability in their lives. I also know my local Greasecar authorized installer and have seen their work including some of the aftermath (the prematurely trashed engine of one of the owners.) This is a community of people that want to believe but often lack the technical ability to keep their experiments on the tracks, especially running cars on WVO. While I am doing the tedious development work to get my goal mileage from my car, most are not.

It is your car, you decide and no one else. You will take my information or leave it. Funny thing is that the EGR issue is avoidable, unlike the injector and resulting ring gumming issue.

I have to wonder, when your car starts smoking and running poorly from the EGR fouling, will you admit it? Or will you suppress it so as to not harm your cause? I hope you will share, as that will be the greatest benefit to the community. That is what I am doing.
 

T'sTDI

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As a pro WVO guy, I totally agree that EGR + WVO = FAIL... in fact it was one of the first things I done away with.

A5 I have to hand it to you, at least your not like most people that continue to drive their car into the ground. At least you have the common sense to fix things that need to be fixed.

I'd be interested in knowing how you run your car on WVO with it being tuned, much like myself. Me and you both know these cars run fantastic on WVO even if you have a lead foot, but do you use that power on a consistent basis? If so, your EGR would clog up faster than Phils car, which as far as I know is stock...

I've stated in previous threads that injectors should be rebuilt around 40-50k of WVO usage (I may have put that in my stickied thread, not sure). Granted that might be abnormal compared to burning straight diesel fuel, but you do what you got to do to be safe...

I have a lot of miles on my car so in actuallity, replacing or rebuilding any of those parts would have probably been done irregardless if I chose to run WVO or not. As most people pursuing power enhancements, they choose to routinely get their nozzle and injector combination to pop at the correct pressures, anyone with I believe Rc4 and above are running a car without an EGR.

I'm not nieve enough to believe that my injectors are spraying 100% the way they should and I'm also not nieve enough to believe that the popping pressures should be adjusted, aka an entire injector rebuild. With that said, I have an EGT gauge that proves to me currently, its not a pressing issue... If I ever had a dribbiling injector or my car was running like ****... I would not only just feel it in the car, it would reflect on my EGT gauge. 45k or so converted miles later, nothing has surfaced... 25-30k of them being on WVO...
 

A5INKY

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As a pro WVO guy, I totally agree that EGR + WVO = FAIL... in fact it was one of the first things I done away with.

A5 I have to hand it to you, at least your not like most people that continue to drive their car into the ground. At least you have the common sense to fix things that need to be fixed.

I'd be interested in knowing how you run your car on WVO with it being tuned, much like myself. Me and you both know these cars run fantastic on WVO even if you have a lead foot, but do you use that power on a consistent basis? If so, your EGR would clog up faster than Phils car, which as far as I know is stock...

I've stated in previous threads that injectors should be rebuilt around 40-50k of WVO usage (I may have put that in my stickied thread, not sure). Granted that might be abnormal compared to burning straight diesel fuel, but you do what you got to do to be safe...

I have a lot of miles on my car so in actuallity, replacing or rebuilding any of those parts would have probably been done irregardless if I chose to run WVO or not. As most people pursuing power enhancements, they choose to routinely get their nozzle and injector combination to pop at the correct pressures, anyone with I believe Rc4 and above are running a car without an EGR.

I'm not nieve enough to believe that my injectors are spraying 100% the way they should and I'm also not nieve enough to believe that the popping pressures should be adjusted, aka an entire injector rebuild. With that said, I have an EGT gauge that proves to me currently, its not a pressing issue... If I ever had a dribbiling injector or my car was running like ****... I would not only just feel it in the car, it would reflect on my EGT gauge. 45k or so converted miles later, nothing has surfaced... 25-30k of them being on WVO...
The OP is running a PD, that is really what my cautions pertain to.

My plan at this point is finish my re-ring and head rebuild jobs. Go through with the power mods that include fresh injectors. Then drastically narrow my WVO operating perimeters to increase time before switchover at both ends of my trip. I will end all in town WVO use. And use only D2 for my more "spirited" driving. In other words, more like you drive yours. With that, My injectors will likely still have to be replaced a few times. Hopefully before the rings get gummed up again. If not I will re-ring again.

PD injectors are EXPENSIVE and few can set them up right. In that regard you are way ahead with your VE. Your 50-60k injector service might prevent the ring issue. PD owners will likely hold off on the injector service like I did and cause the ring issue because of the cost. I may find myself there again. It costs a weekend and about $200-300 to re-ring. My rebuilt used injectors with new nozzles will cost about $1500. New stock ones can be more like $3000 a set.

Tune may have sped up the EGR fail, but I don't think it caused it. I do have fun from time to time in my car, but must is interstate droning with the cruise set. I would defy anyone to tell the difference between fuels from driving or riding in my car. There is no perceptible difference.

My cautions are for most WVO people that will not invest the time or money to keep it alive. I am already invested and have proven the PD will run for awhile on WVO (approx. 138K WVO miles so far). It is far from a free lunch though and keeping ones head in the sand will brick the motor waaaaay prematurely.
 

philngrayce

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What will you do? Are you prepared to inspect any part of your vehicle other than the ignition switch?

All you have to do is pull the EGR valve according to A5INKY.
Bit of a difference between pulling the head and pulling the EGR valve. I probably will remove my valve (if it is that easy) and have a look next warm day. If anyone in the area wants to look with me, you are welcome.

I will not pull the head out of curiosity.

A5INKY: As I said above, you have me a bit curious and I probably will look inside. I had no problems whatsoever on my last car (not a PD) with the EGR system intact. And there are certainly good reasons not to disable it, if it is not necessary. If this proves to be the demise of my engine, I most certainly will still be around. I don't need this forum to run WVO, but I sure need it for the rest of my car. I do look forward to your report on your engine problems and what you have done differently.

Aparantly there is some reason why I have had tremendous succes with WVO. It's not because I'm smarter or harder working or lucky; I'd like to find out what the reason is.

I am well aware that conventional WVO wisdom these days is to disable the EGR, but conventional wisdom changes very fast in this world. I remember when people had 110volt heated tanks and full fuel returns, believeing this was the best way to burn WVO.
 

T'sTDI

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My plan at this point is finish my re-ring and head rebuild jobs. Go through with the power mods that include fresh injectors. Then drastically narrow my WVO operating perimeters to increase time before switchover at both ends of my trip. I will end all in town WVO use. And use only D2 for my more "spirited" driving. In other words, more like you drive yours. With that, My injectors will likely still have to be replaced a few times. Hopefully before the rings get gummed up again. If not I will re-ring again.

My cautions are for most WVO people that will not invest the time or money to keep it alive. I am already invested and have proven the PD will run for awhile on WVO (approx. 138K WVO miles so far). It is far from a free lunch though and keeping ones head in the sand will brick the motor waaaaay prematurely.
Not to start a war with you, but let me bold some of your quote...

One could say burning WVO is a constant science experiment, but I know damn well the average PD owner that has seen success stayed away from power mods...

Increase time before switchover? Was this early switchover? I mean... is the cat coming out the bag now? Done everything right except....

If you switched early to WVO, your ring issue was caused by this... not by burning WVO itself... If you switched too late off the fuel and didn't purge fully off the fuel for a good 3-5 miles... you possibly may of had trace and residual WVO in some part of your fuel system... again ring issues

I'm not saying this because you don't know this, but it sounds like you walked a pretty tight rope... Sounds like you may have had some spirited driving on WVO... I will not lie, I have done it twice in my entire car's lifetime of running on WVO... It requires a lot of self-control... More power equals more unburned fuel which equals more opportunity for coking...

I have power mods, but I always warned against it for that very reason...

I keep my driving to the highway... I think we are learning real quick that city driving and WVO is a no go...
 

A5INKY

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No need for a war. I am not interested in hiding anything as I don't have an agenda outside of contributing my experiences, warts and all.

Increase time before switchover? Was this early switchover? I mean... is the cat coming out the bag now? Done everything right except....

If you switched early to WVO, your ring issue was caused by this... not by burning WVO itself... If you switched too late off the fuel and didn't purge fully off the fuel for a good 3-5 miles... you possibly may of had trace and residual WVO in some part of your fuel system... again ring issues
Never early switchover IMO as I have a controller that is programmed to not actually switch until the engine is up to operating temps. The change I am making is to not switch until out on the 4 lane and at light cruise speed. I did not always adhere to this in the past. So I guess it depends on your definition of early switchover. Mine just got more stringent.

As for purge, the PD will purge very fast by design. The PD tandem pump moves fuel through the head pretty fast. With a clear return line at idle I have observed full fuel exchange in 12-13 seconds at my solenoid. Admittedly in the early days my purge was short as 30 seconds of run after the purge completed (not enough). I had changed this to a 1:45 (as a backup) and have been in the habit of purging and driving for several miles before shut down for quite some time. When my purge had been too short and I examined the piston tops 38K ago, they cleaned up with a rag and had no coking on the tops at all. Even with a much better practice of earlier purge, the current tear down showed tons of deposits on the piston tops and top of cylinder wall. I am interpreting this to mean that purging did not cause the issue specifically, but injector spray pattern loss. If anything earlier too short purges may have contributed to hastening the injector issue that lead to the ring issue. Nevertheless, my change will be to purge before hitting the off ramp from now on. Lengthening switchover and purge times is good advice and should be considered for a 'best practice' for sure.

I'm not saying this because you don't know this, but it sounds like you walked a pretty tight rope... Sounds like you may have had some spirited driving on WVO... I will not lie, I have done it twice in my entire car's lifetime of running on WVO... It requires a lot of self-control... More power equals more unburned fuel which equals more opportunity for coking...

I have power mods, but I always warned against it for that very reason...
How tight of line, hard to tell. I won't defend WVOing with mods. I avoided stop and go driving but would run VO under most other driving conditions. How much of a problem power mods are is going to be hard to tell, mine have been in place for 90K WVO miles. More fueling can lead to higher peak temps, perhaps especially considering how most go about tuning the PDs without nozzle upgrades, increased injection duration probably didn't help. I will say that EGT's didn't increase under my most common driving conditions. So far I am not convinced the tune is the only thing that created the tipping point. I do have more PD WVO miles than most after all. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. Not tuning is probably better in the long run and might borrow some time before trouble strikes. I am a big boy and clean up my messes and am going big on the mods...

I keep my driving to the highway... I think we are learning real quick that city driving and WVO is a no go...
Agreed. There went 90+% of WVO users. One of many reasons why it is mostly not a good idea for most (if any?)
 

T'sTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Maryland
TDI
2001 Jetta
No need for a war. I am not interested in hiding anything as I don't have an agenda outside of contributing my experiences, warts and all.
I certainly appreciate your non biased attitude towards WVO. Your opinion would be one that I particularly value because of your extensive experience... I would certainly categorize you as someone that knew enough to accomplish success in the best way everyone knows how...


Never early switchover IMO as I have a controller that is programmed to not actually switch until the engine is up to operating temps. The change I am making is to not switch until out on the 4 lane and at light cruise speed. I did not always adhere to this in the past. So I guess it depends on your definition of early switchover. Mine just got more stringent.
I would not classify that as early switchover either. This is the practice that I have used from the start... wait to get out on the highway, make your merge, hammer down etc... etc... set the cruise and switch to oil...

I've also always purged while still on the highway instead of at idle. I never liked the idea of ever being on WVO when at idle... I don't know why, I just never did. I've burned WVO a couple times when in stop and go situations and decided to always purge long before I would see myself in that scenario. I truly believe WVO is for long highway trips, only...


As for purge, the PD will purge very fast by design. The PD tandem pump moves fuel through the head pretty fast. With a clear return line at idle I have observed full fuel exchange in 12-13 seconds at my solenoid. Admittedly in the early days my purge was short as 30 seconds of run after the purge completed (not enough). I had changed this to a 1:45 (as a backup) and have been in the habit of purging and driving for several miles before shut down for quite some time. When my purge had been too short and I examined the piston tops 38K ago, they cleaned up with a rag and had no coking on the tops at all. Even with a much better practice of earlier purge, the current tear down showed tons of deposits on the piston tops and top of cylinder wall. I am interpreting this to mean that purging did not cause the issue specifically, but injector spray pattern loss. If anything earlier too short purges may have contributed to hastening the injector issue that lead to the ring issue. Nevertheless, my change will be to purge before hitting the off ramp from now on. Lengthening switchover and purge times is good advice and should be considered for a 'best practice' for sure.
When did you actually convert your car? I would say roughly the 60k mark? You do have to consider that 190k is a lot of miles for a car and although diesels are tough, there are components that wear out. I think WVO exacerbates this effect sooner rather than later. The problem with WVO is coking issues and polymerization. You could run sub par atomizing injectors for years and only experience worse fuel economy, smoke and poor power, but never would you experience the catastrophic issues that sub par injectors could cause while running WVO.


How tight of line, hard to tell. I won't defend WVOing with mods. I avoided stop and go driving but would run VO under most other driving conditions. How much of a problem power mods are is going to be hard to tell, mine have been in place for 90K WVO miles. More fueling can lead to higher peak temps, perhaps especially considering how most go about tuning the PDs without nozzle upgrades, increased injection duration probably didn't help. I will say that EGT's didn't increase under my most common driving conditions. So far I am not convinced the tune is the only thing that created the tipping point. I do have more PD WVO miles than most after all. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. Not tuning is probably better in the long run and might borrow some time before trouble strikes. I am a big boy and clean up my messes and am going big on the mods....
The tune if anything should increase combustion efficiency if driven by a sane individual. I don't think this added to your problem. I think power mods can help the cause if driven with some sense... It seems like most of the time you had that...

Agreed. There went 90+% of WVO users. One of many reasons why it is mostly not a good idea for most (if any?)
I agree with this 100%... One of the reasons I wrote my guide the way I did was to scare off anyone that was on the fence. You got to be smart and educated to be able to do it the best way possible.

My take on the situation has and will always be the purge. I don't think people understand the importance of not only purging but driving long after you purge... My best practice method after a purge and on diesel fuel is hammering the go pedal, 26 PSI of boost, up a long grade of hill, barking second and running up through the gears till about 65 MPH... :D I do this after I have purged for 3-5 miles... that being a huge difference...

It's almost like you were never burning WVO when you do things this way... you start and stop on diesel, nothing is left to chance... When will you ever experience coking issues when your running on the highway at a consistent 2700 RPM, on boost, highest combustion efficiency... and then purge before you get off the highway... drive with some sense on diesel for about 3 or so miles and then "italian tune-up" up a long grade or down a long road... This has been preventive maintenance, so to speak... to prevent any polymerization of my injectors etc..etc...

Of course my car is different... I would guess that the injectors on a PD are even more critical that they are popping correctly because they operate at a higher fuel pressure...
 
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