TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

SUNRG,

Very consistent #'s on the last two tests. I'd expect you'd see more fluctuation due to silicon (dirt), levels than anything else.

How do you interpret that soot level, ie is it 0.49%? :-(

TS

Another great UOA from a CJ-4 5w40. Drained this out for M1 0w40. Looks like I didn't need to..oops

Very consistent results with the DEO and almost no shearing (baseline Vis is ~ 15.0 Cst). Again you have excellent air filtration which is key to very low wear. The other factor are the low soot (solids), levels.

You could easily run 15k-20k intervals with the re-formulated (higher TBN), DEO formulation, before I'd be concerned about the soot levels.

TS

first 81921 on engine, unknown miles on oil... fill when I bought it

2nd 106434 on engine, 8651 on oil. Shell Rotella 5W40


CU 14, 9
FE 48, 194
CR 8,9
AL 190, 35
PB 4,2
SN 0,0
SI 28, 14
NA 5, 4.
K 6, 2
MO 2, 20
NI 4, 2
AG 0, 2
TI 0, 2
CA 1624, 2611
MG 12, 377
ZN 876, 1365
P 754, 1149
BA 1,1

SOOT 18, 39
OXI 20, 29
NIT 9, 14
SUL 21, 36
PERCENT FUEL CONTENT ON 2ND ANALYSIS 1.83
V100 15.5, 14.7
PQI 8, 8

THIS IS FROM CAT LABS.

after the first analysis I did a auto-rx clean and every oil change since had 3 oz of auto-rx added (oil change every 10k)

cat says that iron levels are trending upwards and elevated. Al and Si levels have improved, still high. they say to monitor compartment and resample in 1000 miles

i"m thinking cam wear... will pull the valve cover and have a look see. just don't know if I can swing the money before spring. good excuse to buy the timing belt tools

other than this the car runs great and gets 45 to 50 mpg with out trying!
makes me mad that something like this could go wrong with a car with only 100k on it....

JA- engine probably was neglected before you bought it. High fe likely cam, high al may be cam bearings in head. Good idea to have a look see under cam cover.

Looks like some of your upper piston rings may be stuck in their grooves due to hard carbon/ varnish deposits (from using the wrong oil). I'd do a compression test and see how that comes out. The high level of fuel dilution would indicate you're not getting a good ring seal on one or more of the cylinders.

I suspect the elevated Fe/Cr/Al is from the cylinders, rings and piston skirts. The cam lobes are probably fine....

TS

Bob Fout - why with numbers like that did you switch to another oil?

Jarmstrong - if it were my TDI, in addition to following TooSlick's recommendation, if the TDI was operating great (as you say yours is), i'd change the oil today, i personally would refill with Mobil 1 TDT 5w40 CJ-4, and then i'd send a sample to the lab after the new oil has been in service for 5k miles.

by changing the oil again today you'll flush out inherited contaminants and flush out the Auto RX. for all we know, AutoRX may be part of the problem. your use of it is directly correlated with the elevated wear you're UOAs are returning. i'm not saying this is what's happening, but i don't know that AutoRX is compatible with the new CJ-4 oil chemistries, and i do know that a 5w40 CJ-4 will work very well all by itself.

i personally would also begin using a double dose of a good comprehensive diesel fuel additive (detergent/cleansing + lubricity increasing + cetane boosting + anti-gel) and i'd use it every tank for the next 5000 miles.

good luck!

I wanted to add that the presence of nickel (an alloy in stainless steels) & elevated silicon could also indicate an air filtration problem (leak), somewhere in the intake (abrasive wear of the intake valves). This would also elevate the levels of the type of upper engine wear metals you're seeing. Lots of dirt in the engine would also impact valvetrain wear, since you have very thin oil films separating the parts.

TS

TooSlick, How are you doing? we have corresponded before on bobistheoilguy.com (what a great site!!!). i assume you are one and the same.

do you think i should try some amsoil DEO (i'm an amsoil dealer also and love the stuff) and resample.

i did change the oil when i pulled this sample with shell 5w40 again and 4 oz on auto-rx

when i bought the car with 83k i did on auto-rx clean and rinse cycle then went to 9k to 10k changes. with the 4 oz auto-rx maint. dose. i did use the shell 5w40 for the auto-rx clean and rinse cycles... i was afraid of using less than a group 3 synthetic in it.

thank you for any input.

i did change the filter at 25k instead of 20k and it was pretty dirty. it was the winter filter with the foam

Air filter is every 40K miles. Surface dirt is not an issue. Fuel filter is every 20K miles.

SUNRG said:

Bob Fout - why with numbers like that did you switch to another oil?

Click to expand...

Call it curiosity I guess. We'll see how M1 0w40 does during my cold, short trips.

Jarmstrong said:

when i bought the car with 83k i did on auto-rx clean and rinse cycle then went to 9k to 10k changes. with the 4 oz auto-rx maint. dose. i did use the shell 5w40 for the auto-rx clean and rinse cycles... i was afraid of using less than a group 3 synthetic in it.

Click to expand...

Any benefit from auto-rx has been obtained, so I would suggest that you stop using it. Engines that benefit from it tend to be gassers that have been fed a regular diet of conventional oil of the cheaper varieties.

Amsoil DEO should work very well. I concur with the suggestion that you change the oil now and get as much of the retained contaminants out of there. Those metal wear numbers are far in excess of normal values. Something is wrong, probably caused by poor maintenance practices by the previous owners.

The Amsoil DEO will work fine - in a mechanically sound engine. But I don't think you'll fix this problem with oil. The Rotella is a fine product and you should not be seeing this kind of wear pattern.

I'd also recommend stopping use of the ARX; I'm not sure it's helping here. A few short runs with a CJ-4 spec oil to clean things out and re-test. That's what I'd do....

TS

Do you guys who use blackstone, do you just get the basic test?

Does anyone recommend another company? Any specific reasons?

adamant628 said:

Do you guys who use blackstone, do you just get the basic test?

Does anyone recommend another company? Any specific reasons?

Click to expand...

Some do the basic test, some also get TBN for an extra fee.

Any of the major fluid analysis places will serve our purposes, Blackstone, Polaris, CAT, Oil Analyzers Inc, and UOA provided by AV Lube.

Since the introduction of 15 ppm ULSD fuel, TBN retention is a non-issue for the 10,000 mile service interval. Even the VW 507.00 oils (which start out at a relatively low 7.0-7.5 TBN), hold up fine. If you're running >> 10k miles, it would probably be worth checking the TBN. However even in that case I'd bet you hit the soot limit (I like to use 1.0%), before the TBN bottoms out.

TS

TooSlick said:

Since the introduction of 15 ppm ULSD fuel, TBN retention is a non-issue for the 10,000 mile service interval. Even the VW 507.00 oils (which start out at a relatively low 7.0-7.5 TBN), hold up fine. If you're running >> 10k miles, it would probably be worth checking the TBN. However even in that case I'd bet you hit the soot limit (I like to use 1.0%), before the TBN bottoms out.

TS

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, that'll save $10.

I'm going to do a 5k test, then a 10k (I did an oil change at 50k (7k after I bought it)). I used M1 TDT.

Is it a waste to get the TDT (from the bottle) tested for a baseline measurement?

adamant628 said:

Is it a waste to get the TDT (from the bottle) tested for a baseline measurement?

Click to expand...

It's good geeky-oil info to have to share.

adamant628 said:

Thanks for the tip, that'll save $10.

Click to expand...

TBN is not an extra-cost test with Oil Analyzers Inc (OAI). It's just part of the regular test package.

60K oil analysis with Delvac 1 ESP 5W40

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] I switched from Motul Specific at 55K miles to Delvac 1 ESP 5W40. My first oil analysis on my 05 Jetta TDI was shocking and a second analysis after 5K into a new oil change with a Dieselgeek bypass added was still concerning. I switched to Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 and changed to OEM oil filter and the Amsoil bypass filter in the Dieselgeek setup. The wear metal levels and soot have dropped significantly with the Delvac 1 oil. I will continue to use the Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 oil and plan to switch my wife’s 2005 Jetta TDI at the next OCI. Now I only have to source a Dieselgeek kit for a BRM engine. Anyone have one they would like to part with?[/font]
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/60K_Oil_Analysis_05_Jetta_TDI.jpg

york77777 said:

ALUMINUM 3 7
CHROMIUM 3 3
IRON 59 62

SODIUM 127 54

CALCIUM 2161 2563
MAGNESIUM 12 13
PHOSPHORUS 801 820
ZINC 935 979

cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 67.8 66-78
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 12.38 11.9-15.3
Flashpoint in °F 465 >410
Antifreeze % 0.25 0.0
Insolubles % 0.3 <0.8

Click to expand...

That is a lot of sodium -- I wonder if there's a possibility of contamination during the sampling? or even at the lab. Iron is a little high, but not terrible on an engine with this many miles. Soot level (insolubles) is low, that's not a problem

I question your choice of Pentosynth or whatever you're using. I'd suggest switching to a HDEO like TDT, or maybe something with a little more zinc in it.

Some folks have had great results with the Total Quartz Ineo -- but it is a 5w30 not a 5w40. I am not sure if that's the right direction to go.

Car: 2004 Golf
Trans: 5-M
Miles at sample: 91,500
Miles on sample 13,500
Duration: 11months
Oil: Castrol SLX OE 5W-30
Make-up oil: 0.65L
Amsoil By-Pass Filter


Iron: 41
Chromium: 1
Nickel: 0
Aluminum: 3
Copper: 3
Lead: 1
Tin: 0
Cadmium: 0
Silver: 0
Vanadium: 0
Silicon: 6
Sodium: 8
Potassium: 4
Titanium: 0
Molybdenum: 0
Antimony: 1
Manganese: 0
Lithium: 0
Boron: 0
Magnesium: 5
Calcium: 2028
Barium: 0
Phosphorus: 753
Zinc:852

Fuel: 0.3%
Soot: 0.5%
Water: <.1%
Viscosity 100 C: 11.7
TBN:3.5
I-R Oxida: 14
I-R Nitra: 21


Comments: TBN slightly low.

Those are nice test results. Even after 13.5k miles.

York7,

I'd say a small head gasket leak is highly possible, given the # of miles on this engine.

TS

TS- in the marine engines I work on, coolant contamination is usually associated with high na and k. York7's k is low. Not sure if k is present in g12 though. My vote is for submicron na dust from road getting sucked through the air filter.

Any other snow belt folks see high na in their winter oil samples?

Edit: saw lab flagged 0.25% antifreeze...wonder if that is based on na concentration or positive test for glycol.

Bobgolf, Is this the 507.0 oil? Looks like a great UOA.

I believe it s/b Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 so it would be the 505.01

silverbox said:

Bobgolf, Is this the 507.0 oil? Looks like a great UOA.

Click to expand...

This is 505.01 Castrol 5w-30 Professional SLX OE that the VW dealer carries.

This oil also gave a good result in my 2006 Jetta for a 10,000 mile interval with no by-pass filter. See post #1352.