Another Jetta '09 TDI "Bad Gas" Horror Story

So are the particles/shavings from failed high pressure pump in the micron range or are the pumps chunking out? I do not own a modern Bentley repair manual to show where all the filters are in relationship to the tank, pumps, engine and return line to tank. One would hope that the filters before the high pressure pump are doing their job suggesting the fuel is the issue. USA diesel today is more like gasoline than diesel from 2 or 10 years ago. Haven't the Europeans been on the low sulfur fuel for a number of years? Are they not having issues? If not why not? One would assume that with more diesel VWs over in Europe that there would be a huge dataset of failures. Or are the diesel fuel suppliers doing a better job with additives? Or are they using more bio in their blends which help with lubricity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel#European_Union

seems the euro diesel has less sulfur now?

i think that is crazy that we even have to think about saving all the receipt to cover or asses...and even to MUST put additive inside...unbelievable...

Nickofari said:

Two comments:
- my 2009 Jetta TDI JSW has a build date of 7/08
- ther is not consistent warranty coverage for vehicles affected by this problem

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I only talked to one person a young woman from Columbus, Ohio that her entire fuel system was replaced under warranty without her having to argue with VW or the dealership. If I recall correctly the dealerships name was Hatfield.

I think VW is being consistant on their response: ''contaminated fuel'' its the customer response thats not consistent. Some except it some don't.

One other thing,when I spoke with one VW Service Manager he had to actually argue with VW that it was a HPFP failure and not contaminated fuel to get it covered under warranty. So, its just not the customer that sometimes has a fight.

Nick, thanks for the build date. So far that fits into the production range of HPFP failures. Hopefully that range will not get bigger.
Dweisel

dweisel said:

I only talked to one person a young woman from Columbus, Ohio that her entire fuel system was replaced under warranty without her having to argue with VW or the dealership. If I recall correctly the dealerships name was Hatfield.

I think VW is being consistant on their response: ''contaminated fuel'' its the customer response thats not consistent. Some except it some don't.

One other thing,when I spoke with one VW Service Manager he had to actually argue with VW that it was a HPFP failure and not contaminated fuel to get it covered under warranty. So, its just not the customer that sometimes has a fight.

Nick, thanks for the build date. So far that fits into the production range of HPFP failures. Hopefully that range will not get bigger.
Dweisel

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could you please tell me how to check the build date? i have a 09 SW

Claudio said:

could you please tell me how to check the build date? i have a 09 SW

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Build date is on the silver colored sticker on the drivers side door jamb.

Dweisel

Claudio said:

i think that is crazy that we even have to think about saving all the receipt to cover or asses...and even to MUST put additive inside...unbelievable...

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dwiesel said:

I only talked to one person a young woman from Columbus, Ohio that her entire fuel system was replaced under warranty without her having to argue with VW or the dealership. If I recall correctly the dealerships name was Hatfield.

I think VW is being consistant on their response: ''contaminated fuel'' its the customer response thats not consistent. Some except it some don't.

One other thing,when I spoke with one VW Service Manager he had to actually argue with VW that it was a HPFP failure and not contaminated fuel to get it covered under warranty. So, its just not the customer that sometimes has a fight.

Nick, thanks for the build date. So far that fits into the production range of HPFP failures. Hopefully that range will not get bigger.

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Claudio, It is crazy but, based on VWs past history, I would at least keep the fuel reciepts and be ready to draw that fuel sample until this issue is accepted and rectified by VW and only to CYA from a possible porking where the sun doesn't shine if they continue on the "contaminated fuel & it's your fault" determination. Regarding additives. I don't recall seeing anything published by VW recommending the use of additives and I wouldn't expect everyone here to be privy to the findings of the Spicer data which determined that 2% bioD is the best overall lubricity additive over all other additives. I would love for those who currently has an early production CR and has exclusively used this B2 procedure from day one to chime in with a report of whether these metal particles are or were present in the main fuel filter. This data may assist in somewhat determining whether lubricity is the real culpret or whether their is an actual design flaw in the HPFP.

dwiesel, great input here from both you and CRTDI. I agree that the "contaminated fuel" determination can be a two-way street but, these dealers must not make the "it's your fault" determination unless they have absolute proff of user neglect and that goes for the VW tech line personnel as well. Later!

I own a 09 and 10 TDI. All three of my 2010's fuel pumps failed. First started off with a noise under the rear seat. They replaced that fuel pump. Two weeks later the booster pump near the fuel filter started to make a grinding noise and that was replaced. Finally the HPFP failed. The car would not start. I think we all need to start writing BBB or someone about the fuel pump/contamination issues.

I own a 09 and 10 TDI. All three of my 2010's fuel pumps failed. First started off with a noise under the rear seat. They replaced that fuel pump. Two weeks later the booster pump near the fuel filter started to make a grinding noise and that was replaced. Finally the HPFP failed. The car would not start. I think we all need to start writing BBB or someone about the fuel pump/contamination issues.

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Ouch, new data point. That one hits home for me. I take delivery of my 2010 JSW today.

dweisel said:

Build date is on the silver colored sticker on the drivers side door jamb.

Dweisel

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thanks!

my build date is 04/09 (i bought the car at the end of May 2009)

elester12 said:

I own a 09 and 10 TDI. All three of my 2010's fuel pumps failed. First started off with a noise under the rear seat. They replaced that fuel pump. Two weeks later the booster pump near the fuel filter started to make a grinding noise and that was replaced. Finally the HPFP failed. The car would not start. I think we all need to start writing BBB or someone about the fuel pump/contamination issues.

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So, did VW repair your car under warranty? Just a guess on my part,but I would say the HPFP caused the other two pumps to go out first for some reason.

What is the build date on your 2010?
Do you use an additive?
Do you use any percentage of bio?

Dweisel
Dweisel

Both of my 2009 TDI Jettas are 10-08 build date.

So far, so good.

dweisel said:

Just a guess on my part,but I would say the HPFP caused the other two pumps to go out first for some reason.

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Logic dictates that it would be the other way around..

Lift pump failure starves intermediate pressure pump which starves high pressure fuel pump.

The lift pump can't starve the other pumps as without the lift pump there is no fuel to keep the engine running.

My thoughts are. HPFP starts to fail and sends metal to the lift pump. Lift pump fails and car won't start. New lift pump is installed which now is able to send more metal to the boost pump. Boost pump fails. New boost pump installed. Finally the already failing HPFP takes a crap. Now do the repairs correctly and replace the entire fuel system.

The repairing dealership botched the whole repair by not diagnosing the failing HPFP. Because of the misdiagnosis you had one failure after another.

If a failed boost pump or simply running out of fuel is going to cause this chain of events. We all need to get rid of our 09/2010 tdi's.

Dweisel

dzcad90 said:

Logic dictates that it would be the other way around..

Lift pump failure starves intermediate pressure pump which starves high pressure fuel pump.

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Don may be correct here because I have been dabbling around on the Cummins Diesel forum and the HPFP on the Cummins is referred to as the CP3. The CP3 can be damaged if the lift pump fails. They also say that a better than stock and lower micron fuel filtration system can assist in the longevity of this CP3. Maybe a Cat filter system is in the cards here, eh? Later!

dweisel said:

The lift pump can't starve the other pumps as without the lift pump there is no fuel to keep the engine running.

My thoughts are. HPFP starts to fail and sends metal to the lift pump. Lift pump fails and car won't start. New lift pump is installed which now is able to send more metal to the boost pump. Boost pump fails. New boost pump installed. Finally the already failing HPFP takes a crap. Now do the repairs correctly and replace the entire fuel system.

The repairing dealership botched the whole repair by not diagnosing the failing HPFP. Because of the misdiagnosis you had one failure after another.

If a failed boost pump or simply running out of fuel is going to cause this chain of events. We all need to get rid of our 09/2010 tdi's.

Dweisel

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Yes, this makes sense as well and I think the HPFP and CP3 damage would be more of a longer term damage as opposed immediate damage due to a lift pump failure. I do know however, many BEWs and Cummins engines will run without the lift pump until the fuel system loses prime. Some run nearly as normal but, some run shakey after 2500 or so rpms. Later!

The CP1 pump that I have experience of has a "safety valve" internally. If supply pressure drops below setpoint (about 10psi IIRC) the safety valve closes (or, won't open at all if trying to start the engine) with the result that no fuel passes to the pumping section and any and all available fuel is sent to the pump's lubricating circuit.
No fuel to the pumping section= insufficient rail pressure= injection is inhibited and a fault code set.

dweisel said:

...so far that fits into the production range of HPFP failures. Hopefully that range will not get bigger.
Dweisel

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Dweisel, so far what do you have for a production range on failed HPFPs?
I'm afraid my 11/08 is in that range?

VW of America is jumping the shark here

aja8888 said:

If that was my car, the instant the dealer would have suggested "fuel contamination", I would have put a locking cap on the fuel filler, locked the car and insisted that the dealer do not enter it until I had a sample of fuel PULLED FROM THE TANK using a independent lab tech.

Why let the dealer have your car (unatteded or secured)to tamper with the evidence is beyond logic.

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Isn't it a sad indictment on VW of America's dealership network that we have to assume likely criminal tampering of evidence? Basically, VW's are sold without warranties.

I've spent the last few months seriously looking for a hatchback car with stability control (got some stock payout from work), and although VW Golf and NB's met my objective criteria list, I could not in good conscience purchase an expensive new vehicle without an effective warranty. I bought a 1998 BMW 318ti with stability control instead.

Volkswagen: you're losing my generation now. It's very early in the game to turn things around and keep the faith with us. I could have paid cash for a 2010 JSW but I refuse to buy a car w/o a warranty

VWOA's lineup is overpriced and under-warranted. The nearly 12 year old BMW I'm driving is smoother, quieter, and more well built for 1/4 of the price of a new VW.

funoutdoors121 said:

Dweisel, so far what do you have for a production range on failed HPFPs?
I'm afraid my 11/08 is in that range?

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Well, I think elester12 mentioned issues with his 2010 in post #68 so, maybe it's across the board but, more data will need to be gathered. Later!

Nickofari said:

Two comments:
- my 2009 Jetta TDI JSW has a build date of 7/08
- ther is not consistent warranty coverage for vehicles affected by this problem

Click to expand...

Damn, that's my build date....

Harvieux said:

Regarding additives. I don't recall seeing anything published by VW recommending the use of additives and I wouldn't expect everyone here to be privy to the findings of the Spicer data which determined that 2% bioD is the best overall lubricity additive over all other additives. I would love for those who currently has an early production CR and has exclusively used this B2 procedure from day one to chime in with a report of whether these metal particles are or were present in the main fuel filter. This data may assist in somewhat determining whether lubricity is the real culpret or whether their is an actual design flaw in the HPFP.

Click to expand...

That would be me. Well, I think I've missed adding 1 liter 100% BD each fill 3 times in the 22k miles I've got on the car, for various reasons, so that is ALMOST every time. I have not checked my fuel filter, but of course it was recently changed at the 20k mark anyway.

nicklockard said:

Isn't it a sad indictment on VW of America's dealership network that we have to assume likely criminal tampering of evidence? Basically, VW's are sold without warranties.

I've spent the last few months seriously looking for a hatchback car with stability control (got some stock payout from work), and although VW Golf and NB's met my objective criteria list, I could not in good conscience purchase an expensive new vehicle without an effective warranty. I bought a 1998 BMW 318ti with stability control instead.

Volkswagen: you're losing my generation now. It's very early in the game to turn things around and keep the faith with us. I could have paid cash for a 2010 JSW but I refuse to buy a car w/o a warranty

VWOA's lineup is overpriced and under-warranted. The nearly 12 year old BMW I'm driving is smoother, quieter, and more well built for 1/4 of the price of a new VW.

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Nick, I vehemently disagree that VWs are overpriced. I think they have some issues that need to be overcome and it isn't like all here weren't warned about these "rushed into market" and totally new, out of the box engines and emissions devices but, *** do I know, eh? Later!

funoutdoors121 said:

Dweisel, so far what do you have for a production range on failed HPFPs?
I'm afraid my 11/08 is in that range?

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Falling in the range doesn't doom your car to a certain death. Just be aware of what you may be up against if you need repairs to your fuel system.

''Drive more,worry a little''
Dweisel

Harvieux said:

Nick, I vehemently disagree that VWs are overpriced. I think they have some issues that need to be overcome and it isn't like all here weren't warned about these "rushed into market" and totally new, out of the box engines and emissions devices but, *** do I know, eh? Later!

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They are overpriced for my earnings bracket (median US income range).

My objective criteria list I set out prior to shopping was as follows:

My requirements are:

1. MUST have ESP/stability control.
2. MUST get >25 mpg combined cycle mean FE.
3. MUST have manual tranny available with ESP.
4. MUST have affordabe TCO (Edmunds.com has a 'TCO' Total Cost of Ownership algorithm) for five years over competitors.
5. MUST be above or near the median JD Power's surveys for problems/reliability, etcetera.
6. Highly prefer hatchback for our active lifestyle.
7. Bonus for dealer incentives, cash back deals, etcetera.
8. Highly prefer purchase price < 18K. I only want to finance $11-12K at most.
9. Looks: utilitarian/boring is okay, but can't be butt-stinking ugly.


I looked at the 2.5L VW Golf which fails Req #4 and #5, sadly.

I settled on a 12 y/o BMW which met all my objectives, and it has an engine with reputation for going 250,000 miles w/o rebuild (timing chain of good design). It's also much quieter and smoother than any of the new cars I looked at.

My list didn't even explicitly state that the car had to have a real warranty--I just took that as a given, but VW's badly fail that requirement based on long term and recent evidence.

Nickofari, sorry for this side-track. I just think it's sad what you have to go through, having to prove a negative, like you're the one under a microscope. VW needs to eat this cost. For every one of you they screw over, they lose 5 of us. I'll limit my further posting to keep your thread clean.

nicklockard said:

They are overpriced for my earnings bracket (median US income range).

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Hey, about 65 or so years ago we came out victorious in this little tiff that was later known as World War II. This is the reason nobody's forcing you to buy a VW. (However, indirectly in some screwed up way, this may be responsible for why you CAN buy a VW if you choose..) Had we lost, the story might be different

The Median income in the US would prevent you from buying a LOT of vehicles, not just a VW. $50K a year/household is pretty tight if you want to own a decent house and a newer car.

However, let's try and keep this on topic. If you want to start a topic on whether the MkV/MkVI is overpriced / bad buy for the value or not, be my guest.

dweisel said:

The lift pump can't starve the other pumps as without the lift pump there is no fuel to keep the engine running.

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I think your statement implies there's only one failure mode - completely dead.

If the lift pump is not pumping to specification, or if it's intermittent in any capacity then I think this is a perfectly plausible explanation.

Dz,I'm not saying a lift pump can't fail. Just going by the law of averages. So, what you are saying is if the lift pump goes or even pumps in a diminished capacity, the total fuel system repair will be needed. $10k repair because of a cheap lift pump. This is way worst than I imagined. Maybe Turbine is way smarter than we give him credit for.

I'm not saying it's the letter of the law at all, just that if you think about it, it's possible unless some other safety system is in place to protect the expensive components from failure due to a low flow condition.

Just a quick question: can anyone with a CBEA engine remove their top cover, and see what name is on the HPFP? Reason I ask is, I am pretty sure Luk makes these for MB CR engines, same folks that made the tandem pumps for the VAG PDs (many of which were recalled, BTW).

If Luk is also supplying the HPFP for the CBEA engine, then why are some of those having this issue while the MB version is not?

I have also heard of these things failing on direct-injected gasoline cars (BMW, VAG) and I think they may also be Luk.

The HPFP on the CBEA engine is located up top, towards the front of the engine compartment, near the radiator. I do not know for sure if you can see a name on it or not.