09 Turbo Replacement

TDIMOFO · Apr 26, 2009

Think it has anything to do with the 22 lbs of boost provided by the Turbo?
I know the CBEA (The engine in the 09 tdi) is detuned to 140 hp. Now maybe they should be using a bigger more heavy duty Turbo and detuning it more so that the required 22lbs of boost is not actually the upper limit of the turbo. I say this NOT knowing what the actual upper limit of boost is (the amount of boost the TDI's CBEA engine's Turbo is capable of producing) It makes sense to me anyway that using equipment capable of producing more HP or boost and detuning them some what achieves the goal of efficiency and good emissions.

Sombody said that the problem is that people treat and believe the TDI is a race car. Baloney. There are LOTS of higher end automobiles which are "sports" cars with turbos that people get in and drive without warming the oil and circulating it before high power driving. They do it without breaking the turbo. Oil happens to be a liquid. Oil pressure comes up within seconds as does the flow of oil. This is NOT the problem.

The idea that the CBEA engine is detuned to a degree is the same thing that attracts some people to the platform as a basis for modification.
IMHO I do not beleive that there is enough headroom between the 140HP tuning and the real ability of the engine to justify a whole lot of effort being made to soup it up.
One would think that as large a company as VW is that they would do enough R and D on various engine tunings and turbos to know what turbo to bolt on the engine. It is a new engine, I doubt it is a new turbo. You have to allow for a certain abount of failure. if there are only 5 end users that have a turbo failure out of the growing population of TDI owners that equates to a VERY small number of failures. A number which is so small that quite frankly could be ignored with little or no consequences.

TDIMOFO

emdeeaitch · May 15, 2009

Just adding my turbo to the thread.

I bought my car on May 6. I had test driven a different car than the one I bought, due to paint color availability... I noticed upon pulling off the lot that my car wasn't as strong as the one I test drove, but in my mind I initially attributed it to the car being cold and brand new (17 miles) versus the 200 miles on the one I test drove. This line of thought led me not to say anything to the dealer, and drive on. After driving 271 miles back to my house, I parked it, and the turbo died (or perhaps more accurately "finished dying") the next morning with a flashing glow plug light on the dash.

The dealer, under direction of national VWoA tech line, initially replaced just the "turbo bypass valve" aka "wastegate control valve." They have used both names interchangeably.

That did not fix it. The entire turbo has been ordered, but is on back order, expected around May 21.

I will update my status when the end result is known.

velociT · May 15, 2009

emdeeaitch said:
Just adding my turbo to the thread.

I bought my car on May 6. I had test driven a different car than the one I bought, due to paint color availability... I noticed upon pulling off the lot that my car wasn't as strong as the one I test drove, but in my mind I initially attributed it to the car being cold and brand new (17 miles) versus the 200 miles on the one I test drove. This line of thought led me not to say anything to the dealer, and drive on. After driving 271 miles back to my house, I parked it, and the turbo died (or perhaps more accurately "finished dying") the next morning with a flashing glow plug light on the dash.

The dealer, under direction of national VWoA tech line, initially replaced just the "turbo bypass valve" aka "wastegate control valve." They have used both names interchangeably.

That did not fix it. The entire turbo has been ordered, but is on back order, expected around May 21.

I will update my status when the end result is known.

Sucks man... Maund or Hewlett?

emdeeaitch · May 15, 2009

velociT said:
Sucks man... Maund or Hewlett?

Maund is the one fixing it. I trust the service manager there, Kenneth. I bought it from Gorman McKracken in Longview, because only they had silver, and because the Maund sales guys didn't know a reasonable offer on their black car when I made it... I actually offered them a better deal than Longview took... Hewlett used to have a good service manager, that guy from Germany, but they ran him off several years ago. I have not trusted Hewlett's service department since then. Any dealership who runs off a guy like that has major issues.

Incidentally, Pelican made a perfect description of something that my car was also doing before the turbo died. Quoting Pelican:

The car is feeling sluggish below about 2,200 RPM and then all of a sudden boost jumps up and the car charges forward. It's most noticeable in 1st gear when taking off from a stop; probably because the gearing is so short resulting in a very noticeable change in acceleration rate.

On the upside, my broken car got great first-tank MPG with a near death turbo. That's something to be proud of.

Pelican18TQA4 · May 16, 2009

Another one bites the dust...a turbo that is!

My dealer was instructed to do exactly the same thing when I first dropped my car off for the turbo-related problem. I completely understand why they would attempt this fix first because it's only natural to try and fix the ancillary items that regulate boost before jumping in and replacing an expensive item like the turbo itself. Just as in your case however, replacing one or more boost-controlling devices did not fix the problem and a new turbo was ordered.

Though this is pure speculation, I am guessing that there is a production issue with some of the turbos, or more specifically, a part (VGT mechanism) of some of the turbos. My car drives differently now then it ever did with the original turbo and I speculate that the problem existed in a minor form from day 1 and it just took some time and miles for my turbo to fail completely. My mom has a '09 TDI as well and her car exhibits none of the symptoms that mine did and drives very much exactly the same as mine does now with the new turbo.

Elfnmagik · May 18, 2009

Mine has gotten a better since a road trip where I showed it who was Boss. It still exhibits the low torque condition intermittently and I can certainly detect it when it occurs. I'm convinced it's a VGT actuation issue and I'm waiting for it to become severe as Pelican's before making a case.

Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think this may be a bigger issue than with just the few of us.

elester12 · May 19, 2009

Hey guys-- My 2nd turbo just failed today. VW is replacing it, again. I've got over 60K on my twin turbo BMW and it's never been to the dealer once for any issues. Why is my VW so special?!

Elfnmagik · May 19, 2009

Definitely unacceptable. I not sure I'll be keeping the car beyond the warranty.

Pelican18TQA4 · May 19, 2009

elester12 said:
Hey guys-- My 2nd turbo just failed today. VW is replacing it, again. I've got over 60K on my twin turbo BMW and it's never been to the dealer once for any issues. Why is my VW so special?!

Cause you paid twice as much for the BMW

Seriously, that stinks. What were the symptoms?

velociT · May 19, 2009

elester12 said:
Hey guys-- My 2nd turbo just failed today. VW is replacing it, again. I've got over 60K on my twin turbo BMW and it's never been to the dealer once for any issues. Why is my VW so special?!

Damn... the second one already bit it?

VGT problems again?

Mach1 · May 19, 2009

Its probably an actuator mechanism failure(N75 valve?)..

Dealer 'Tech' says..the turbo is having problems..Dealer 'Service manager' seez..just put a turbo on it and hope it works correctly...

This is going to be a major problem when the warantees end at 36000 miles..

I like my defective camshaft in my BRM..

emdeeaitch · May 19, 2009

Update on my car:

My turbo arrived this morning, and it was on the rack to have it installed, when an urgent call came in from the regional VW field engineer... He had been on personal leave the last 10 days and not hear about my car until now. As as soon as he did he told them NOT to put the turbo on my car and then specified an additional test to the fuel system. The additional test led the local service manager to believe that a solenoid in injection system is causing the problem... the field engineer told the service manager that's what fixed a Jetta in Houston that had the same issue recently.

The engineer is supposed to drop in on my car personally by Thursday at the latest.

The plot thickens.

Sip'n Diesel · May 19, 2009

emdeeaitch said:
The plot thickens.

indeed

Pelican18TQA4 · May 19, 2009

Mach1 said:
Its probably an actuator mechanism failure(N75 valve?)..

Dealer 'Tech' says..the turbo is having problems..Dealer 'Service manager' seez..just put a turbo on it and hope it works correctly...

This is going to be a major problem when the warantees end at 36000 miles..

I like my defective camshaft in my BRM..

The turbo is covered under the 5 yr/60,000 mile powertrain warranty, is it not? And to my knowledge, VW won't replace a bad VGT actuator separate from the turbo; this includes prior generations of TDIs also.

Mach1 · May 19, 2009

Pelican...OK set me staright on the fine print..However it still boils down to throwing turbo's at the 2L and when the waranty is gone(does it matter if its 3/36000 or 5/60000?) cause you are going to start paying when they throw a turbo at it reguardless..

Now, some hope has surfaced in the fact that the regional service REP seez..STOP!! dont throw a turbo at it...Lets check it out a little more and see if it really is the turbo(Vs. throwing a turbo at it). Maybe this will shed some light on the situation and VWOA will realize that they are throwing too many turbo's at problems...

So there is some positive to the story..someone has woke up and smelled the roses...

This is the whole bases to this TOPIC!!!

Pelican18TQA4 · May 20, 2009

Mach1 said:
Pelican...OK set me staright on the fine print..However it still boils down to throwing turbo's at the 2L and when the waranty is gone(does it matter if its 3/36000 or 5/60000?) cause you are going to start paying when they throw a turbo at it reguardless..

Now, some hope has surfaced in the fact that the regional service REP seez..STOP!! dont throw a turbo at it...Lets check it out a little more and see if it really is the turbo(Vs. throwing a turbo at it). Maybe this will shed some light on the situation and VWOA will realize that they are throwing too many turbo's at problems...

So there is some positive to the story..someone has woke up and smelled the roses...

This is the whole bases to this TOPIC!!!

Post-warranty repairs will probably be tackled like any other iteration of the TDI. Meaning, owners will seek out more information, including trying to replace things like the VGT actuator separate from the turbo. I think that is only normal.

Elfnmagik · May 20, 2009

It would be great if this turns out to be fuel delivery related. This morning I was doing 6th gear roll-on runs from 65-85 with about half pedal. The first second or two of accelleration, it starts pulling strong, then it hits a dead spot (almost like lifting off a little), then it resumes.

emdeeaitch, please try and get the name of the regional rep. It might be of benefit to others to drop a name at the dealership if this pans out.

elester12 · May 20, 2009

Pelican18TQA4 said:
Cause you paid twice as much for the BMW

Seriously, that stinks. What were the symptoms?

You're right about paying twice as much but I'm twice as happier with it.

The 2nd turbo on my TDI was replaced due to a VGT problem (according to the dealer). The diesel glow plug light started to blink and my car had no power.

I don't drive the car hard at all. This car is mostly for driving around DC and VA in the city.

Harvieux · May 20, 2009

I've had a few BRMs which had bad VGT actuators which boiled down to the electronic position potentiometer which supplies the VGT vane position to the ECU. All of these turbos were in great working order with the exception of the potentiometer meaning the physical vacuum pump test of the arm movement was satisfactory. I have very, very rarely had to replace a turbo boost control valve (N-75) on any TDI except for the older 1Z's or AHU's which were mainly due to CCV oil contamination.

Based on Pelican's description here:

The car is feeling sluggish below about 2,200 RPM and then all of a sudden boost jumps up and the car charges forward. It's most noticeable in 1st gear when taking off from a stop; probably because the gearing is so short resulting in a very noticeable change in acceleration rate.

I am willing to bet that the symptons specified in bold will result in my diagnosis description above and is not related to a fuel issue.

I do think the area rep who has put a halt to the turbo replacement is not necessarily doing the wrong thing by making sure there's not a fuel system related issue because I too had to use process of elimination when this BRM VGT issue first reared its ugly head a couple years ago. I generally have the extreme luxury of having other similar TDIs in inventory to perform a parts swap to eliminate possibilities such as N-75, EGR valve, flapper valve, etc.

If these early turbo failures are related to the actuator, I think it will end up being a big, big problemo for VW and most owner's of these cars unless there is some sort of TSB brought out immediately upon confirmation.

I don't know if these actuator's potentiometer sensors are the result of heat damage or what but, this must be looked into by VW engineering or Borg Warner engineering along with devising special tools for the extremely hard to access actuator assembly R&R without complete turbo removal. This of course, will also require the manufacturer to allow for actuator only accessability. This should also be done to assist those individuals who will soon be out of the unconscionable and decontented 3/36 warranty which may turn out to be one of my famous "I told you so's" regarding the aquisition of this, just out of the box CR engine but, *** do I know, eh?

Later!

emdeeaitch · May 20, 2009

Elfnmagik said:
emdeeaitch, please try and get the name of the regional rep. It might be of benefit to others to drop a name at the dealership if this pans out.

I met the guy just a little while ago. He's working on the car now. To those who want his name: I don't think it would be courteous to post it on the board, BUT if you have posted as having the issue personally or if you are one of the mechanics/gurus here, and you send me a PM, I'll give you his name offline. I don't want to offend one of VW's more helpful people by plastering his name everywhere

Pelican18TQA4 · May 20, 2009

Harvieux said:
I've had a few BRMs which had bad VGT actuators which boiled down to the electronic position potentiometer which supplies the VGT vane position to the ECU. All of these turbos were in great working order with the exception of the potentiometer meaning the physical vacuum pump test of the arm movement was satisfactory. I have very, very rarely had to replace a turbo boost control valve (N-75) on any TDI except for the older 1Z's or AHU's which were mainly due to CCV oil contamination.

Based on Pelican's description here:

The car is feeling sluggish below about 2,200 RPM and then all of a sudden boost jumps up and the car charges forward. It's most noticeable in 1st gear when taking off from a stop; probably because the gearing is so short resulting in a very noticeable change in acceleration rate.

I am willing to bet that the symptons specified in bold will result in my diagnosis description above and is not related to a fuel issue.

I do think the area rep who has put a halt to the turbo replacement is not necessarily doing the wrong thing by making sure there's not a fuel system related issue because I too had to use process of elimination when this BRM VGT issue first reared its ugly head a couple years ago. I generally have the extreme luxury of having other similar TDIs in inventory to perform a parts swap to eliminate possibilities such as N-75, EGR valve, flapper valve, etc.

If these early turbo failures are related to the actuator, I think it will end up being a big, big problemo for VW and most owner's of these cars unless there is some sort of TSB brought out immediately upon confirmation.

I don't know if these actuator's potentiometer sensors are the result of heat damage or what but, this must be looked into by VW engineering or Borg Warner engineering along with devising special tools for the extremely hard to access actuator assembly R&R without complete turbo removal. This of course, will also require the manufacturer to allow for actuator only accessability. This should also be done to assist those individuals who will soon be out of the unconscionable and decontented 3/36 warranty which may turn out to be one of my famous "I told you so's" regarding the aquisition of this, just out of the box CR engine but, *** do I know, eh? Later!

You very well may be correct that it is the sensor part of the VGT system that is failing, as that sounds like a very plausible explanation of the symptoms. However, I never experienced the flashing glow plug light or limp mode or anything else that some are reporting, only what you highlighted from my original thread.

If I was requesting WOT and the ECU was only seeing XX boost being produced, wouldn't it throw a DTC for underboost? I never understood why that didn't happen. If the sensor were bad, what is the ECU seeing; is it seeing that the vanes are in the "high boost" position but in fact they are not, which results in the vane actuator not moving and therefore not producing boost?

The dealer advised me that my turbo was replaced under the 5 yr/60,000 mile powertrain warranty, which is the same length as the BRM.

Harvieux · May 20, 2009

Pelican18TQA4 said:
You very well may be correct that it is the sensor part of the VGT system that is failing, as that sounds like a very plausible explanation of the symptoms. However, I never experienced the flashing glow plug light or limp mode or anything else that some are reporting, only what you highlighted from my original thread.

If I was requesting WOT and the ECU was only seeing XX boost being produced, wouldn't it throw a DTC for underboost? I never understood why that didn't happen. If the sensor were bad, what is the ECU seeing; is it seeing that the vanes are in the "high boost" position but in fact they are not, which results in the vane actuator not moving and therefore not producing boost?

The dealer advised me that my turbo was replaced under the 5 yr/60,000 mile powertrain warranty, which is the same length as the BRM.

Very good point regarding why the ECU doesn't log a DTC for this mis-match in boost control. I am not a practicing electrical engineer and I was truly trying to figure this same thing out. All I can tell you is that when this issue cropped up in a few BRMs over the past couple years, replacement of the turbo did the trick 100%. The actuator moved perfectly with Mity-Vac but, I did not physically tear apart the turbo to visually see if there is some sort of vane damage. Even if there was vane damage, you would think a DTC would be in the cards due to under or over boost conditions via the map sensor.

My only assumption in this matter possibly would be that since the hiccup generally occurs below 2500 rpms or so and then recovers quickly thereafter, maybe the ECU has a tolerance over a wider range of boost control and possibly sees the lower rpm boost control issue as somewhat of a normal turbo lag situation.

I also agree that some of the other issues such as flashing GP light or total limp mode may not be attributed to what we are discussing here.

Are you saying that your 2009 CR TDI has a 5 year/60K power train warranty? Or is the turbo part of a special Federal emissions warranty? Later!

drh1965 · May 20, 2009

emdeeaitch said:
Update on my car:

My turbo arrived this morning, and it was on the rack to have it installed, when an urgent call came in from the regional VW field engineer... He had been on personal leave the last 10 days and not hear about my car until now. As as soon as he did he told them NOT to put the turbo on my car and then specified an additional test to the fuel system. The additional test led the local service manager to believe that a solenoid in injection system is causing the problem... the field engineer told the service manager that's what fixed a Jetta in Houston that had the same issue recently.

The engineer is supposed to drop in on my car personally by Thursday at the latest.

The plot thickens.

Hmmm.... it was my Jetta in Houston and the problem was a loose connector on a relay under the dash related to fuel delivery. The symptoms on my car were: it ran perfectly until at 300 miles or so, the glow plug light came on solid and a few seconds later the car died. It could then not be started at had to be towed back to the dealer. My understanding was that the turbo issues were performance related? How is this a similar problem?

dr61 · May 20, 2009

Harvieux said:
Are you saying that your 2009 CR TDI has a 5 year/60K power train warranty? Or is the turbo part of a special Federal emissions warranty? Later!

Very interesting info here. Yes, 2009's have a 5 year/60K power train warranty from VW.

Harvieux · May 21, 2009

dr61 said:
Very interesting info here. Yes, 2009's have a 5 year/60K power train warranty from VW.

Ahh! So, the BB was reduced to 3/36 and includes scheduled maintenance. I was under the assumption the whole enchalada was reduced to 3/36. Shows you *** I know, eh?

Later!

TornadoRed · May 22, 2009

I remember when the VNT actuators for VNT-15 turbos could not be individually replaced -- if they failed for whatever reason, the entire turbo had to be replaced.

Then one of the club members found a source in France (I think), and then someone else obtained one in Canada, and pretty soon all the usual TDIClub vendors were selling them. But VW dealerships still replace the complete turbo.

This VGT problem sounds like it could be the same kind of deal, an actuator problem that would not require turbo replacement if replacement actuators were available. (or am I totally missing something in this thread?)

Elfnmagik · May 22, 2009

That's what I think is going on with mine. Mostly because it seems that maybe it's not closing down to increase velocity at the low rpm's. When my wife and I were on our road trip two weeks ago, I was giving it a workout on the interstate. At one time doing a 6th gear roll-on in 'D' about half throttle, I swear it was like it snapped loose and boost was such that it was like I had the handbrake applied, then released it.

It's intermittent though where sometimes it pulls really strong in 6th from 60mph with barely any throttle, then other times I've got to run it up to 4k through the gears just to merge out onto the I's.

Mikey152 · May 22, 2009

Being my first TDI (and first car w/ a turbo), what should I be looking for to distinguish between this "problem" and normal, run-of-the-mill turbo lag?

Im still on the first tank of gas, so I haven't been openning it up much at this point, but there is a noticable lag in first that can last for quite a bit, especially when I stomp on the go-pedal, followed by a head snapping response...Feels alot like I released the handbrake. I have been telling myself it is a combination of the DSG and turbo lag, but now I am suspicious...Any tell-tale signs I can look for?

TornadoRed · May 22, 2009

Mikey: do not "stomp". Just ease into it off the line. Stomping on the accelerator, even in lower gears, puts quite a lot of unnecessary stress on the turbo.

emdeeaitch · May 22, 2009

drh1965 said:
Hmmm.... it was my Jetta in Houston and the problem was a loose connector on a relay under the dash related to fuel delivery. The symptoms on my car were: it ran perfectly until at 300 miles or so, the glow plug light came on solid and a few seconds later the car died. It could then not be started at had to be towed back to the dealer. My understanding was that the turbo issues were performance related? How is this a similar problem?

Sounds like our cars weren't as similar then as what got relayed to me. Your statement is the first *direct* info I've had on your car. My car ran less than perfectly for the first 271 miles, then glow plugged and continued to run at massively reduced power but never refused to start or run.

In any case, to update on my car:

The regional rep elected to replace the second fuel pump (the "high pressure" one up by the engine, not the one in the tank) on my car. That part arrived today, and it did not fix my car. The regional rep is to return to see my car again immediately following the holiday weekend, so I'll probably have another status update on Tuesday night or Wednesday.

For whatever reason, the regional rep thinks my turbo is working. I did not witness the test first hand, but the service manager told me the regional rep ordered a test in which they arbitrarily clamped off a fuel line at some point in the system to isolate more closely where the problem was, and the clamp test made him think it was a fuel sending issue and not the turbo/VGT issue. Those of you who are gurus can probably figure out and suggest here how such a clamp test might work. I didn't really get it from the explanation.

09 Turbo Replacement

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