Diesel Engine Break-In Myth?

Kabin

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We've been hearing this one for years and maybe it was partially true at one time but with today's higher tech engine fabbing and tolerances could there be any truth to the old adage that diesel engine fuel economy improves once the engine is "broken-in?"

Why wouldn't a diesel auto manufacturer provide an already broken-in engine for test if it was that easy to get 10 to over 30% improved fuel economy like many suggest?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
That is a good question, however not all of it is break in from a mechanical point of view, but from an engine management 'fuzzy logic' point of view as well.

I think you may still see some improvement in overall fuel economy though as those tight tolerances seat in. VAG builds very good engines with very good materials and very tight tolerances. However they cannot change the laws of physics and I think some stuff will just generally wear in no matter what.

VAG did drop the first early oil change from the new TDI's PM schedule, however. Now first oil change is 10k miles, just like the gassers*

*some VAG gas engines require a 5k mile oil change interval, some (most) 1.8t engines and some V6s. The rest are 10k miles.
 

Joe_Meehan

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Most cars diesel and gasoline do get better mileage as the engine brakes in. I has happened in various degrees with most of the cars I have bought. The improvement has not been as large as a lot of people have reported however. Just enough to measure. I also have not experienced any long term break in improvements. About 5 thousand miles has done it for me.
 

JonFord

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If I were to buy a new one or overhaul a engine, I would drive it out of the dealers lot and run it about 1 hour as hard as traffic and the situation would allow me to. :D Heat (high boost), lots of fuel ( to wash the cylinders down as much as you can with diesel), and upper RPM will establish the ring package early.

I would also after this initial run, change the oil and filter at about 200 miles. This gets rid of all of the junk that will be there from the machining process of manufactoring. Yes they do a excellent job today of keeping them clean, but it still gets in the engine. The next oil and filter change would be at 1000 miles and then 10,000.

Oil is cheap with a new engine.

JonFord
 

gdr703-2

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Kabin said:
. . . if it was that easy to get 10 to over 30% improved fuel economy like many suggest?
My experience shows this to be true, and not a myth.
The break in took abot 15,000 miles, and yes the mpg's improved 20%

cheers.

best / worst 5,000 miles:
2007: 60.1 / 52.6 mpUSg ___ 3.91 / 4.47 L/100

2006: 63.9 / 58.5 mpUSg ___ 3.68 / 4.02 L/100
2005: 62.2 / 57.0 mpUSg ___ 3.78 / 4.13 L/100
2004: 60.5 / 56.8 mpUSg ___ 3.89 / 4.14 L/100
2003: 63.1 / 60.5 mpUSg ___ 3.73 / 3.89 L/100
2002: 61.8 / 52.7 mpUSg ___ 3.81 / 4.46 L/100

Overall 59.2 mpUSg ___ 3.97 L/100
 

wesk1954

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Kabin said:
We've been hearing this one for years and maybe it was partially true at one time but with today's higher tech engine fabbing and tolerances could there be any truth to the old adage that diesel engine fuel economy improves once the engine is "broken-in?"

Why wouldn't a diesel auto manufacturer provide an already broken-in engine for test if it was that easy to get 10 to over 30% improved fuel economy like many suggest?
I've owned probably 20 new cars over the years, incluing my new baby, 09 TDI. My experience has been, whether gas or diesel, the best mpg will be produced after at least 10,000 miles. Both my Impala and Equinox increased by 2 MPG after that point.

Wes
 

40X40

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Kabin said:
We've been hearing this one for years and maybe it was partially true at one time but with today's higher tech engine fabbing and tolerances could there be any truth to the old adage that diesel engine fuel economy improves once the engine is "broken-in?"

Why wouldn't a diesel auto manufacturer provide an already broken-in engine for test if it was that easy to get 10 to over 30% improved fuel economy like many suggest?
Once you realize that we are measuring the mileage of the entire car and not just the engine, it is easier to accept that mileage will increase as the car breaks in.
Every moving part on the car (down to the flexing of the tires themselves) are subject to the effects of aging and wear. Sometimes wear can be beneficial in terms of smooth and long term operation.

FYI, the same condition was once called 'wearing in'.

Bill
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The older TDIs started to run their best at 60K or more. That's a lot of break-in. Don't know if the same will be true of the '09s.
 

TornadoRed

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Drivbiwire made the argument that cylinder compression should increase during a proper break-in, resulting in more power and better fuel economy. Someone needs to check the compression of a new TDI and then measure it after 10k, 20k, 40k miles to see if there really is an increase in compression.
 

Rod Bearing

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TornadoRed said:
Drivbiwire made the argument that cylinder compression should increase during a proper break-in, resulting in more power and better fuel economy. Someone needs to check the compression of a new TDI and then measure it after 10k, 20k, 40k miles to see if there really is an increase in compression.
That'd be a pain in the ass.

The fact is, as the rings and valves get a good seat and the engine gets some heat cycles on the internals, the compression DOES increase.

It's really obvious on the old 2 stroke Detroits I work on. Those things sound like there ain't any rings in them right after an overhaul. They start hard, lots of smokey cranking, idle like there's a couple pistons missing, the airboxes drool oil out the drain tubes, they smoke like a wood stove, and have no throttle response. After a good hour long dyno pull routine, they quit slobbering oil, stop smoking, get that really snappy quick throttle response they're known for, and get a really nice smooth idle clatter to them. Thats all due to the piston rings and valves seating and sealing off.

My TDI engine seemed to get a lot snappier at about 15 - 20 thousand miles or so. Only one thing causes that in an oil burner. More compression and thus better fuel burn after the engine wears in from new..
 

JonFord

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It would be interesting to build two engines exactly the same. Give one to grandma to drive and take the other to the dyno and try to destroy it. Then give that one to grandma to drive.

JonFord
 

Rod Bearing

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JonFord said:
It would be interesting to build two engines exactly the same. Give one to grandma to drive and take the other to the dyno and try to destroy it. Then give that one to grandma to drive.

JonFord
It's well known in the world of diesels that babying them is bad. I build a lot of engines of all different kinds, and they all seem to respond best to being broken in rather hard. They need the best oils and filters and change intervals to match their use and conditions, but they will live long and prosper.

Gouge on em!:D
 

hevster1

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Compression also increases from carbon buildup on pistons over time. When redoing an engine some builders still lap valves by hand after doing 5 angle valve jobs. While I do not know this for sure they claim as much as 5% higher HP and Torque numbers if you lap them by hand. Setting intake valves on the tight side and exhaust valves on the loose side of spec seems to help certain engines perform their best. Others like them both on the tight side.
Much of this happens during break-in.
 
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JonFord

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We are using a ceramic/nylon coating for the piston tops, combustion chambers, valve faces/back sides and exhaust ports to try to retain heat and reduce carbon build up. So far it seems to be working great in gas powered engines, but haven't got far enough into the diesel part to know for sure yet. Nice part is that it is holding up to 2000 degree heat cycles.

I think the people in Denver have a big advantage. They could take a new car out of the dealers showroom and take it up Berthod Pass with lots of boost. Coast back down and do it again. Ideal break-in.

JonFord
 

Kabin

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Rod Bearing said:
It's well known in the world of diesels that babying them is bad. I build a lot of engines of all different kinds, and they all seem to respond best to being broken in rather hard.
Gouge on em!:D
Yea, and it ain't bad for the rebuild biz either! :D
 

Kabin

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We have a young neighbor kid, with new license. Every morning he jumps in the car and stomps on the gas like he's the next Dale Earnhart. I had my time with my first auto, an old vw baja bug. I could get 3rd gear chirps with by monkeying with the emergency break in between shifts. :) The value system was a bit different back then.
 

aloser

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Where will you get another fill of break-in oil?

JonFord said:
If I were to buy a new one or overhaul a engine, I would drive it out of the dealers lot and run it about 1 hour as hard as traffic and the situation would allow me to. :D Heat (high boost), lots of fuel ( to wash the cylinders down as much as you can with diesel), and upper RPM will establish the ring package early.

I would also after this initial run, change the oil and filter at about 200 miles. This gets rid of all of the junk that will be there from the machining process of manufactoring. Yes they do a excellent job today of keeping them clean, but it still gets in the engine. The next oil and filter change would be at 1000 miles and then 10,000.

Oil is cheap with a new engine.

JonFord
You will drain out the factory fill of break-in oil, reportedly *NOT* the same as the 505.01 spec oil used at scheduled oil changes, when you change the oil at 200 miles.

Where are you going to get a refill of the break-in oil for the remaining 4,800 miles it is supposed to be in the engine?

If I recall correctly, VW explicitly states in the owner's manual *NOT* to change the oil early for this specific reason.
 

TornadoRed

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aloser said:
You will drain out the factory fill of break-in oil, reportedly *NOT* the same as the 505.01 spec oil used at scheduled oil changes, when you change the oil at 200 miles.

Where are you going to get a refill of the break-in oil for the remaining 4,800 miles it is supposed to be in the engine?

If I recall correctly, VW explicitly states in the owner's manual *NOT* to change the oil early for this specific reason.
We don't know for sure if the factory fill is some special oil or not.... the consensus view, as I see it, is that the factory fill is not special.

Every engine is tested at the factory, and probably drained and refilled there. So draining it before the normal scheduled interval doesn't make much sense.

And regarding that scheduled interval -- is it still 5k, 10k, 20k miles, or is it now 10k, 20k, 30k miles?
 

JonFord

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"probably drained and refilled " by ToranadoRed

The "probably" part leaves me with enough room to do it again.


"states in the owner's manual *NOT* to change" by aloser

I have been told that a lot in my life, but alas, I usually ignore those.

When I change at 200 miles, I do not put back in the synthetic based oil because in MHO it is tooooo slick to properly break in a new set of rings. 1000 miles is where the Delvac I goes in. At 5000 miles is where the 1/2 liter of engine additive with a new filter goes in.

The big worry you have with this 1.9L engine is the camshaft. It will be well burnished at 200 miles if driven hard for the first 200.
 

mrGutWrench

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JonFord said:
(snip) I have been told that a lot in my life, but alas, I usually ignore those.

When I change at 200 miles, I do not put back in the synthetic based oil because in MHO it is tooooo slick to properly break in a new set of rings. 1000 miles is where the Delvac I goes in. At 5000 miles is where the 1/2 liter of engine additive with a new filter goes in.
__. Please do me a big favor. Please put a piece of paper in the glove box with the words "Pre-Owned by Jon Ford" on it when you sell a car. I want to be sure that I never buy a car that you've owned! :rolleyes:
 

40X40

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mrGutWrench said:
__. Please do me a big favor. Please put a piece of paper in the glove box with the words "Pre-Owned by Jon Ford" on it when you sell a car. I want to be sure that I never buy a car that you've owned! :rolleyes:
Mr G,

I agree with you. Amazing how many shade-tree types think they are smarter than the hundreds of PhD.s that VW and every other car manufacturer and lube oil company employ.

People insist on thinking themselves right into trouble.. LOL

Bill
 

TornadoRed

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JonFord said:
When I change at 200 miles, I do not put back in the synthetic based oil because in MHO it is tooooo slick to properly break in a new set of rings. 1000 miles is where the Delvac I goes in. At 5000 miles is where the 1/2 liter of engine additive with a new filter goes in.
I don't think changing the oil at 200 miles will hurt a thing. Driving the next 800 miles on conventional oil doesn't do any good, but probably won't do any lasting damage. Running Delvac 1 5w40 after that is a reasonable choice even for a PD engine, though VW does not advise it.

But what is this 1/2 liter of oil additive? This doesn't sound good at all.
 

JonFord

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"shade-tree :D types think they are smarter than the hundreds of PhD.s " Posted by 40X40

Thank you, I take that as a complement.

"Please put apiece of paper in the glove box with the words "Pre-Owned by Jon Ford" :) posted by mrGutWrench.

Consider it done. I have people always wanting my trucks, but don't sell.


"But what is this 1/2 liter of oil additive? This doesn't sound good at all". Posted by TornadoRed

..................................:eek: Snake oil right? :eek:...............................

I have a little bit of experience with heavy equipment hydralic systems.
We use to get about 800 to 1000 hours until we had to replace them. The company I worked for ask me to look at the problem and I finally settled on getting the gearator systems and bodies coated with a oil retention coating and adding this product ( I was really out on the limb) to the hydralic system. The failure rate went away and they were then lasting 4000 hours and counting with no failures. It wasn't the cost of the pumps, it was the down time that was killing production. PS I don't sell it either. I am just a user.

My pampered 1997 F-250 Power Stroke 7.3 was backed off the rail car by me, driven 200 miles to Austin, Texas at high rpm, had the oil changed to Delvac 1300. Then I hooked the 10000# trailer that pulls like a huge brick and took it to Iowa (1000 miles) at 65 to 80 mph (8 to 12# of boost). It now has 175,000 miles on it, Delvac 1, gets 20 mpg, never uses oil and runs like new.

Do I think that you will hurt your car by following the factory procedure, NO, you just carbon up the top side and take for ever to get to full break-in. But then what does a shade tree like me know.

JonFord

By the way, I like to pee in PHD's boots to see if they pour it out before they put them on or hand them a dirty wrench to see if they hold it or drop it. :) :D :p

:D Who is serving popcorn and beer :D
 
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40X40

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Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran Registered Vendor



Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Re: Break-in Period
Rules that apply for the life of the car
-When the engine is cold (below the first 3 white marks at the base of the temp gage) rev the engine to at least 2,500 rpms.
-When the engine is warmed up (above the first three white marks) Rev the engine to no less than 3,000 rpms.
The reason for this is to keep the turbo on boost, clear the VNT guide vanes and apply firm pressure to the rings for optimal sealing against blow-by gasses. The rings need the boost to seal since its a turbo charged engine, babying the engine is detrimental and will lead to issues with compression if done so for very long.

First 1,000 miles
Keep rpms below 3,800. Avoid steady rpms. Frequent firm application of power is strongly recomended up to 3,800 rpm. Avoid the use of cruise control so that you naturally fluctuate the power with your foot.

1,000-5,000 miles
Use the full 5,100 rpm power range. Avoid steady rpms. Avoid the use of cruise control. Frequent application of full throttle is recomended to help seat the rings. City driving is ideal for breaking in a TDI due to frequent stops and acceleration. Once you get to 5,000 miles change the oil and perform your first service per the manual

5,000-10,000 miles
Use of the cruise control is ok at this point since most of the initial break in has occured. Continue to use occasional full throttle accelerations to continue to seat the rings. You will notice the engine become slightly louder during this phase due to less friction from the engine breaking in (normal for a diesel to become louder under lighter loads). If your going on a long drive and you are using the cruise, every so often step on the peddle to accelerate up about 20 mph then coast back down to your preset speed.

10,000-60,000
This is when the rest of the break in occurs. The engine from the factory will check out with about 475psi of compression pressure out of the crate. It will take at least 60,000 miles to reach the peak pressure of 550psi. For the most part once you get to 10,000 miles your compression will be around 510psi meaning that most of the break in has occured.

60,000-the life of the motor
The engines I have seen so far using a 5w40 oil are maintaining 550 psi of compression pressure with over 200,000 miles on the odometer. The owners have followed the advice above and do not have any oil consumption issues. This also means that with the higher pressure the engine is more efficient returning optimal fuel economy and reduced smoke output.

DB
Many of us have found this info useful.

Bill
 
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mrGutWrench

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40X40 said:
Many of us have found this info useful. Bill
__. But what do any of us know, Bill???? Far better to pour out the factory breakin oil, put in stuff not suited to the engine, then dose it with snake oil! Wait a minute, did I say the magic words???? ====



;)
 

JonFord

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Ok, from now on I will keep my eyes straight ahead and do no original thinking. I will believe everything you say and follow it to the letter. I will not tackle any problems that present themselves and become one of the sheep jumping over the gate with the rest of the sheep. lol :( If you believe that, you don't know me.

I have lost a lot of battle and screwed up more than my share, but everyonce in a while I win one. Of course I am dealing with a "Veteran :confused: and Exerienced :mad: Member so what does a "New:eek:bie" know? I don't suppose 50 years of aviation flying and management, heavy equipment maintenance management, more money and time in more race cars than I can remember and from the school of hard knock counts for anything. How many of you can run a TIG, Haas 5 axis mill and a JKM flow bench plus own them. I can and do, so don't try to blow smoke up my you know what.

Enough of the snide remarks, lets get back to the situation. Rather that try to pee on each other all the time. Lets generate some thinking into this forum. New and crazy ideas are usually just that, but some of them work. I never have tried to step on a person for some new idea. :D :D :D :D :D

I just bought popcorn stock and expect to get banned.
 

Drivbiwire

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Drivbiwire said:
New Rules for the 2009+ CRI TDI's and those that apply for the life of the car

-When the engine is cold (below the first 3 white marks at the base of the temp gage) rev the engine to at least 2,500 rpms.
-When the engine is warmed up (above the first three white marks) Rev the engine to no less than 3,000 rpms.
The reason for this is to keep the turbo on boost, clear the VNT guide vanes and apply firm pressure to the rings for optimal sealing against blow-by gasses. The rings need the boost to seal since its a turbo charged engine, babying the engine is detrimental and will lead to issues with compression if done so for very long.

First 1,000 miles
Keep rpms below 3,800. Avoid steady rpms. Frequent firm application of power is strongly recomended up to 3,800 rpm. Avoid the use of cruise control so that you naturally fluctuate the power with your foot.

1,000-10,000 miles
Use the full 5,100 rpm power range. Avoid steady rpms. Avoid the use of cruise control. Frequent application of full throttle is recomended to help seat the rings. City driving is ideal for breaking in a TDI due to frequent stops and acceleration. Once you get to 10,000 miles change the oil and perform your first service per the manual

10,000-20,000 miles
Use of the cruise control is ok at this point since most of the initial break in has occured. Continue to use occasional full throttle accelerations to continue to seat the rings. You will notice the engine become slightly louder during this phase due to less friction from the engine breaking in (normal for a diesel to become louder under lighter loads). If your going on a long drive and you are using the cruise, every so often step on the peddle to accelerate up about 20 mph then coast back down to your preset speed.

20,000-60,000
This is when the rest of the break in occurs. The engine from the factory will check out with about 435psi of compression pressure out of the crate. It will take at least 60,000 miles to reach the peak pressure of 510psi. For the most part once you get to 10,000 miles your compression will be around 470psi meaning that most of the break in has occured.

60,000-the life of the motor
The engines I have seen so far using a 5w40 oil are maintaining 550 psi of compression pressure with over 200,000 miles on the odometer. The owners have followed the advice above and do not have any oil consumption issues. This also means that with the higher pressure the engine is more efficient returning optimal fuel economy and reduced smoke output.
And those rules STILL APPLY to the 2009 TDI!

Facts surrounding TDI engines prior to leaving the factory:


New engines are assembled mounted in a dyno rig and started. The Engine is run by a computer and put thru a complete pre-programmed break in cycle. This include idle for 3 minutes while systems checks are done. Then the motor load is increased (without raising rpms) to verify the idle characteristics. Then rpms are gradually increased with specific changes of load to promote fluctuations in cylinder pressures. RPM's eventually reach the maximum to insure the motor produces rated power and torque within limits, then the motor is idled and shut down total time about 25 minutes. Engines that pass move on for purging and crating, engines that fail get sold off as factory defects to the aftermarket at reduced prices.

The break-in runs are predicated/based on actual wear measurements taken in real time using engines with RNT type testing. They measure the wear rates and conditions required to achieve very specific wear characteristics that provide an ideal break in during the first run. The pre-programmed dyno run controls the engine exactly as needed to seat and wear in the components so that you have a motor ready to be run out of the box (crate in this case).

When removed from the test cell, every motor is drained of oil, oil filter replaced, coolant, engine is completely flushed (required for shipping and HAZMAT reasons), Filled with an unique oil that meets a specific VW "TL" specification (synthetic oil + VW certified additive package + preservative additives/corrosion inhibiters) which is also called a "Break-In" oil and then shipped for final installation.

Despite the initial cell run, the engine still requires thousands of miles to fully seat. Piston rings cannot conform to cylinders, pistons can't oval out to match ideal bore shapes, cams and lifters still have surfaces not fully smoothed out etc. What you get with a new car is an engine that is already run in to provide the optimum conditions for maximum durability, reliability and life.

No VW engine should EVER be run above 75% of maximum rpm in the first 1,000 miles...EVER! Load is a new engines friend, running up a mountain in 5th gear while varying rpms = The best thing you can do to a new engine. Driving around screaming the engine in 1st gear and low load = the worst thing you can do to a new TDI.

NEVER drain a VW oil early in a new motor! The engine is already run-in (to achieve the min compression spec of around 435psi) and has already been purged of the initial fill after a very detailed break-in run. The break-in oils are thinner than your typical lubricant BUT contain all the specific additives required to promote engine break in.

The previous TL break-in oils were similar to VW506.01 oils in regards to viscosity. The newer will be produced by Fuchs and will have a LOWSaps additive package but will be rated for extended drains (unlike previous TL oils that were rated for 5,000 miles or 7500km).

Follow the manual and don't think for a second that some high school flunky pulled these recomendations of of thin air!

DB
 
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JonFord

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"high school flunky" That is me.

PS, the old 747 is still the ultimate, but EVA is rapidly swithing to 777er's.
Its just not a smooth at the 747.
 

Drivbiwire

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JonFord said:
"high school flunky" That is me.

PS, the old 747 is still the ultimate, but EVA is rapidly swithing to 777er's.
Its just not a smooth at the 747.
The classic is so easy to fly a teddy bear can do it...



The -400/-8 is so easy a computer can do it...


And why settle for (2) GEnx engines when you can have 4!


The 777 is what we call a "large twin" ;)


DB
 
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