Uprated/stronger 02m gearsets?

Tom.

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Location
Doncaster UK
TDI
SEAT Ibiza PD130
Alright guys,

To cut a long story short, I've managed to strip 3rd gear in my 02m box, and in turn damage 6th.

I'm trying to find a stronger gearset that will drop straight in to the box with no issues, as I dont want to be replacing gears on a regular basis.

Just wondering if anyone has come accross or used any in the past?

I'd consider dog/sequential sets at reasonable prices too.

So far I've found this (scroll down for Ibiza TDI)

http://badger-5.com/bin/gearbox/RacingGearboxVW02M.pdf

My only concern is the ratios.

Anybody used dog sets before, and can comment on the upkeep of them?

Thanks,

Tom.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
they're some guys in Czech I think which will surely be able to help you out, forgot the name altough
 

ryanp

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Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I'd check the Diff was shimmed perfectly, or at least do it on the next box, Cryo treat the gears and use VW oil only. There are plenty of 700+hp 4x4 cars running drag slicks without any issues on the stock box.

Maybe you want me to limit torque on that monster GTB eh?
 

Tom.

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Location
Doncaster UK
TDI
SEAT Ibiza PD130
I'd check the Diff was shimmed perfectly, or at least do it on the next box, Cryo treat the gears and use VW oil only. There are plenty of 700+hp 4x4 cars running drag slicks without any issues on the stock box.

Maybe you want me to limit torque on that monster GTB eh?
Limit torque? Don't talk silly ;) rather chew through gearboxes. Diff was installed correctly. It has taken 100,000 miles of abuse from me so probably doesn't help the case. Managed to pick up a box with 36k on it for £350 so going to swap the diff over and chuck it back in ready for gti international.
 

devonutopia

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Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Location
Devon, U.K
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PD300 Skoda Fabia
Good shout. :) yet to have any issue with mine. I have done the trick of uprating the shifter arms. This is the first time I've heard of anyone stripping a cog though. Those internals are really solid!
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Last week I had one off a cupraD with the 1st and 2nd synchro weared out. this was caused by a bend shifter fork and the fact that the dmf was worn causing the clutch surface to move axially. this caused the driver to be inable to completely decouple the clutch and so accelerate the synchro wear. the bearings where also quite worn out according to the transmission guy
 

devonutopia

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Location
Devon, U.K
TDI
PD300 Skoda Fabia
Last week I had one off a cupraD with the 1st and 2nd synchro weared out. this was caused by a bend shifter fork and the fact that the dmf was worn causing the clutch surface to move axially. this caused the driver to be inable to completely decouple the clutch and so accelerate the synchro wear. the bearings where also quite worn out according to the transmission guy
Well, I am glad (in theory) neither of those two things should happen to my box. :)
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
what about the housing bolts? The one I took apart now came out of a 2006 cupraD, GUC coding, and it had aluminium like bolts with a torx. my gearbox was also a GUC from a cupraD but it had metal bolts...?
 

chapelhill

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Aug 19, 2005
Location
Scotland
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03 Ibiza pd13- 2260vk Turbo etc.., Merc E280cdi
I think if I remember my limited gearbox knowledge correctly, highest load on gearbox is during wheelhop, not directly linked to torque of engine, but indirectly as with more engine torque you can induce wheel spin more often.

I would suspect a gear with an original material or manufacturing defect.

High use failure of manual gearbox would normally be due to either bearings wearing and or shaft/box deflection which changes gear contact geometry and results in accelerated wear/pitting on gear surface which can precipitate cracks. Once one tooth has gone the rest will follow.

Since we have few failures reported you should not need anything beyond a good condition gearbox, with strengthened selector forks.

Anything else which can reduce wheelhop such as better suspension, lsd etc I believe you have already done.

If you wanted extra strength, the upgrading bearings, strengthening casing etc would also directly help. No idea of availability of bearings or practicality of strengthening case.
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
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Location
Texas USA
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2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
Sqsracing offers alternative gears for the 02M it's the only company I know of. Dog engagement requires abrupt shifting for life of the dog gears, any delays in the shift can cause wear on the dog teeth which require gear replacement.

You can cryo treat gears but even that won't yield an indestructible gearbox. I know an R32 that can strip cryo treated 02M gears at will and he's had to tune it down and not drive as crazy for gearbox life.
 

vwmikel

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Supposedly the AWD gearboxes use wider/stronger gears and some just convert them back to FWD.
 

Rub87

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Location
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Ibiza '99 90HP
on this topic at vortex there is stated the 6 zyl boxes used to be stronger due to metal end casings
 

Scott_DeWitt

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2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
I believe it was StingrayRT that said this. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Nope the gears are dimensionally similar in respect to width, tooth counts differ but do do the ratios.

on this topic at vortex there is stated the 6 zyl boxes used to be stronger due to metal end casings
All 02M's have metal (aluminum) end casings.. I've yet to see a non metal one.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Ryan was selling a rare gearbox recently and I jumped on it. It's the 02M case with GUC gears (Seat Ibiza Cupra).

I just made a quick chart of the engine speed/road speed with this box and stock 25" diameter tires and I thought I would share it in this thread. I'm drooling over these ratios!!!


02M GUC Gear Ratios/Speeds (25" Tire Diameter = 63.5cm Diameter = 200cm Circumference)

Engine Speed in RPM, Road Speed in MPH
900 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5300rpm
1st 7 11 15 19 22 26 30 34 37 40
2nd 11 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 64
3rd 15 26 34 43 51 60 69 77 86 91
4th 21 35 46 58 69 81 93 104 116 123
5th 25 42 56 70 84 98 112 125 139 148
6th 30 51 68 85 102 119 136 152 169 180
*Road Speed in MPH

Choosing a transmission for the G3F (only 2200 lbs) I cannot be any more excited to see that 2nd gear at 5000rpm is 60mph. Just one shift 0-60 time! HOORAY!!! An extra heavy flywheel should help me get off the line with ease. Now all I have to do is figure out a new mount!

:D :D :D :D :D
 
Last edited:

Scott_DeWitt

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The 02M is pretty limited at high torque levels, I've got a few customer with twin turbo R32's that can strip teeth with application of throttle, the "Safe" limit of the 02M is probably in the 500 ft/lb range.

Dog engagement gears boxes will over time require replacement of the dog rings which often means significant amounts of maintenance is required. I only recommend dog engagement for pure race cars for that reason.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Ryan was selling a rare gearbox recently and I jumped on it. It's the 02M case with GUC gears (Seat Ibiza Cupra).

I just made a quick chart of the engine speed/road speed with this box and stock 25" diameter tires and I thought I would share it in this thread. I'm drooling over these ratios!!!


02M GUC Gear Ratios/Speeds (25" Tire Diameter = 63.5cm Diameter = 200cm Circumference)

Engine Speed in RPM, Road Speed in MPH
900 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5300rpm
1st 7 11 15 19 22 26 30 34 37 40
2nd 11 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 64
3rd 15 26 34 43 51 60 69 77 86 91
4th 21 35 46 58 69 81 93 104 116 123
5th 25 42 56 70 84 98 112 125 139 148
6th 30 51 68 85 102 119 136 152 169 180
*Road Speed in MPH

Choosing a transmission for the G3F (only 2200 lbs) I cannot be any more excited to see that 2nd gear at 5000rpm is 60mph. Just one shift 0-60 time! HOORAY!!! An extra heavy flywheel should help me get off the line with ease. Now all I have to do is figure out a new mount!

:D :D :D :D :D
Its more like 5500rpm for 100kph with normal 16" mk3 tyres, 5000 rpm is around 255kph in stock apllication (ibiza cupraD with 17" tyres)
 
Last edited:

manual_tranny

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Joined
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Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
I do hope you are mistaken, but I could have easily made an error either finding the correct ratios or applying the math. I simply used the tire's outside diameter (25"), and plugged the gear ratios I found into an online calculator. 1st through 4th have a different final drive than 5th and 6th. According to the mechanic who sold it to me, he was shifting out of 1st gear at an indicated 45mph/5500rpm.

The G3F it is going on has slightly taller tires than the stock MKIV Golf/Jetta it started out as. So, one way or the other I will find a way to 60mph in 2nd gear... and hopefully I will have a sub 5 second 0-60 time. :)
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
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Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
The 02M is pretty limited at high torque levels, I've got a few customer with twin turbo R32's that can strip teeth with application of throttle, the "Safe" limit of the 02M is probably in the 500 ft/lb range.

Dog engagement gears boxes will over time require replacement of the dog rings which often means significant amounts of maintenance is required. I only recommend dog engagement for pure race cars for that reason.
500 lb/ft is considered to be "pretty limited"?

We're talking about a turbocharged 3 liter engine... operating at 4500-7000rpm at peak HP. Even if 4500rpm were 400hp, it would be under 500lb/ft. And 6000rpm and 500hp is only 437 lb/ft.

Torque = (5252*HP)/RPM

Torque = (5252*400hp)/4500rpm = 467 lb/ft at 4500rpm and 400hp

Torque = (5252*500hp)/6000rpm = 437 lb/ft at 6000rpm and 500hp

The poor little 02J can barely handle 330lb/ft. 5th gear gives up on high speed runs.
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
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Location
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500 lb/ft is considered to be "pretty limited"?
We're talking about a turbocharged 3 liter engine... operating at 4500-7000rpm at peak HP. Even if 4500rpm were 400hp, it would be under 500lb/ft. And 6000rpm and 500hp is only 437 lb/ft.
Torque = (5252*HP)/RPM
Torque = (5252*400hp)/4500rpm = 467 lb/ft at 4500rpm and 400hp
Torque = (5252*500hp)/6000rpm = 437 lb/ft at 6000rpm and 500hp
The poor little 02J can barely handle 330lb/ft. 5th gear gives up on high speed runs.
Numbers are a best guess from what I've seen in these gearboxes, and not worth arguing over. Poor drivers have been able to tear up an 02M with a stock engine at 200ft/lbs so "Torque capacity" is a rather subjective figure. The R32's I mentioned both put out around 500ft/lbs and a few gears didn't like it. Add in a bit of driver error and that number can easily be reduced significantly.

The weakest points on the 02M are the shift forks.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I do hope you are mistaken, but I could have easily made an error either finding the correct ratios or applying the math. I simply used the tire's outside diameter (25"), and plugged the gear ratios I found into an online calculator. 1st through 4th have a different final drive than 5th and 6th. According to the mechanic who sold it to me, he was shifting out of 1st gear at an indicated 45mph/5500rpm.

The G3F it is going on has slightly taller tires than the stock MKIV Golf/Jetta it started out as. So, one way or the other I will find a way to 60mph in 2nd gear... and hopefully I will have a sub 5 second 0-60 time. :)
With tall tyresdefinatly.. =) but the ratios are really nice, close ratio is good for big turbos to stay in the powerband

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZyCIYt6bk8&feature=relmfu to give you a small preview
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Numbers are a best guess from what I've seen in these gearboxes, and not worth arguing over. Poor drivers have been able to tear up an 02M with a stock engine at 200ft/lbs so "Torque capacity" is a rather subjective figure. The R32's I mentioned both put out around 500ft/lbs and a few gears didn't like it. Add in a bit of driver error and that number can easily be reduced significantly.
The weakest points on the 02M are the shift forks.
In my opinion, the error is not in driving poorly but in choosing a clutch that holds a bit too much. It's better to have a clutch slip a little every once in a while than to rip out a gear.

200lb/ft cannot destroy gears unless there is a shock load torque that is 3+ times that figure. The inertia from the flywheel combined with a 600lb/ft clutch would perhaps destroy gears.

When Factory Five Cobras first came out, the trick to going fast and staying fast was to stick with clutches that were "weak" on the heavy Mustangs. When the weak clutches were put in lighter weight cars, the clutches would hold and the cars would wheelie.
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
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Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
200lb/ft cannot destroy gears unless there is a shock load torque that is 3+ times that figure. The inertia from the flywheel combined with a 600lb/ft clutch would perhaps destroy gears.
I do not know the details, only what the customer told me and what I saw on the bench, or perhaps it was a factory defect, about the only thing that was for sure was the first gear was missing a few teeth.
 
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