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-   Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal (http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=99)
-   -   Got the fix and now have P2457 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=481260)

N2UADTDI August 31st, 2017 15:49

Got the fix and now have P2457
 
2009 TDI. The dealer did the fix. Now I am getting EGR Insufficient cooling performance - P2457.

They are refusing to cover it under the extended warranty. They are saying I may need a new radiator, expansion tank, radiator cap, radiator fans.

This car has been wonderful. No check engine light for years. DPF not cracked. All working. Now I have a piece of junk for a car that can not be driven. They mentioned numbers in the $1000s and are not saying that any of it would fix the CEL.

Called VWAG. They are sitting on the fence and won't say anything.
Personally I am totally disgusted with this whole thing. Should have done the buyback.
I have a very good idea of what is wrong but they have decided that replacing things that are not broken is the way to go.

All I can say to anyone signed up for the fix - take the buyback.

A little more technical info - I can hear boiling coolant in what I think is the EGR cooler. I suspect that EGR exhaust flow has been increased to lower NOx during combustion. The EGR coolant flow is in series with the heater core. And I know the heater core is clogged. So it makes sense that this error code would come up. But the dealer has said the heater core is good. I know otherwise but they insist they know what they are doing.

craigldavis August 31st, 2017 16:03

If you know your heater core is bad (and not covered by the extended warranty) why not just replace it yourself (or have an indi shop do it) and see if that solves it.
After fixing your heater core if you have the problem refer to your new warranty docs. Especially this part:
 The On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) system, any malfunctions detected by the On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) system other than those related to the transmission
I was convinced the dealer who did my fix fried my alternator - it was fine when I dropped it off and not working when I got it back. Ended up just having it towed home for me to evaluate and it was the pulley clutch so clearly they didnít fry it - it just gave out at a coincidental time. Sucked to have to fix it myself (not an easy job) but was worth it (and the right thing to do).

N2UADTDI August 31st, 2017 16:34

Yes, that sentence about the malfunctions detected by the OBD system is what I referred the dealer and VW to.
I am not averse to replacing the heater core myself. What really gets me is that the dealer is really trying to pry $1000s of dollars out of me.
They will be contacting me by end of business Friday - tomorrow. I figured I'd give them this opportunity to make it right.
I wanted to warn others that this type of behavior by the dealer is - so far- being tolerated by VW.

craigldavis September 1st, 2017 09:34

I feel your pain. They wanted $900 to fix my alternator which I was convinced they caused BUT turns out wasn’t their fault. Glad I did it myself. I tried to push them to do it but in the end it wasn’t their fault and wouldn’t have been right for them to have to “eat” that cost.

VW customer care is your friend but as much as it sucks, I can’t see how they should eat fixing your heater core if that’s known bad and not directly an EGR component.

If you do the right thing on something like that, they are more likely to work with you and do the right thing, too.

Best of luck!

kooyajerms September 1st, 2017 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2UADTDI (Post 5322719)
snip
I have a very good idea of what is wrong but they have decided that replacing things that are not broken is the way to go.

A little more technical info - I can hear boiling coolant in what I think is the EGR cooler. I suspect that EGR exhaust flow has been increased to lower NOx during combustion. The EGR coolant flow is in series with the heater core. And I know the heater core is clogged. So it makes sense that this error code would come up. But the dealer has said the heater core is good. I know otherwise but they insist they know what they are doing.

Are you saying the heater core was clogged or showing signs of clogging before you did the fix? Or specifically because of the higher EGR flow it clogged the heater core?

If it's the later, then you may have a case, but how can you prove the heatercore is clogged, to them or to an indy shop? That should be your move if you want to further this.

Did you contact the dieselgate counsel to let them know what has happened? I don't know how much they will work with us after we do the fix. (I do plan on getting the fix, just waiting till I get closer to 120k)

N2UADTDI September 2nd, 2017 05:35

9
Extended Emissions Warranty
Coverage (continued)
Parts Covered Under Extended Warranty

The entire exhaust gas after treatment system, including the Diesel
Oxidation Catalytic converter (DOC), the NO
x
Reduction Catalytic
Converter, the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), the exhaust flap, and
all sensors and actuators;

The entire fuel system, including fuel pumps, high pressure fuel rail,
fuel injectors, vibration damper, pressure control valve, and all
sensors and actuators;

The EGR system, including EGR valves, EGR cooler, EGR filter, EGR
temperature sensor, all related hoses and pipes, and all sensors
and actuators;

The air intake pipe and charge air cooler, charge air temperature
sensor and air mass sensor (HFM);

The turbocharger, including the turbocharger damper;

The glow plug;

The On
-
Board Diagnostic (OBD) system, any malfunctions detected
by the On
-
Board Diagnostic (OBD) system other than those related
to the transmission
Additionally, the engine long block warranty shall cover the engine
sub
-
assembly that consists of the assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder
head, camshaft, and valve train.
The extended emissions warranty includes parts, labor, and applicable
taxes. If the warranty service is scheduled to take longer than three
hours VW must provide a loaner vehicle. The extended emissions
warranty shall not void or supersede any existing warranty. Conflicts
concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer.
More information about your extended emissions warranty coverage is
available at www.vwdiesellookup.com and in the customer letter we
sent to you previously.

N2UADTDI September 2nd, 2017 05:44

The last post is page 9 of the "Important Information..." booklet. The problem with VW and the dealer is that they barely acknowledge this page exists and further that the sentence saying " any malfunctions detected
by the On Board Diagnostic (OBD) system other than those related
to the transmission"
does not exist at all.
I'm about to call one of the lawyers at this point. VW and the dealer are telling me that basically I have to have an open checkbook to fix this problem. That they are not going to pay anything.
I already told the dealer I'd pay for a new heater core. That I know from experience with this car that it's clogged. Needs to be replaced anyway. But they don't act on it. Instead they are telling me things like the radiator fans are bad (they run just fine). The radiator is bad (their temp measurement of 188F in and 166F out say otherwise).
I could go on and on but the crux of the problem is that VW took a perfectly running car and turned it into a money making machine for the dealer and I'm not going along with this. They are refusing to honor the warranty. To me and all the people I showed this warranty page to - it's worded very clearly. Nobody seems to think it can be interpretted any other way.

What do you all think about the wording of this sentence in the warranty? Because just about everyone who gets the fix will have to cross this bridge at some point.

forrest resto`s September 2nd, 2017 05:54

wow.. I have always wondered about them honoring this warranty.. I look forward to the conclusion of this! How about taking it to another dealer or shop for a second opinion?

turbocharged798 September 2nd, 2017 06:41

Perfect example of an assclown clueless dealer.

Heater core on a MK5 is a 20min job unlike the MK4. First thing that should have been done.

Personally I would pull it away from the dealer and replace the heater core yourself. Any warranty from VW is usually a joke anyway.Bet it will fix the problem.

Ghostrider September 2nd, 2017 11:00

N2UADTDI, What dealer is this?

N2UADTDI September 2nd, 2017 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostrider (Post 5323238)
N2UADTDI, What dealer is this?

I'm not here to make the dealer feel bad publicly. If they are reading this they know who I am. If you are from South Jersey I seriously doubt you'll ever be at this dealership in northern Jersey.

forrest resto`s September 2nd, 2017 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2UADTDI (Post 5323334)
I'm not here to make the dealer feel bad publicly. If they are reading this they know who I am. If you are from South Jersey I seriously doubt you'll ever be at this dealership in northern Jersey.

"I'm not here to make the dealer feel bad publicly"...Why not??.. am I missing something here??.. have they made your day a happy one? Are you thrilled with them for the diagnosis?.. I don't get it:confused:

N2UADTDI September 3rd, 2017 18:12

I took a look at my notes of phone calls with VW dealer and VW corporate. Here's a few good ones.

From the dealer:
1. Radiator was deemed to be bad because coolant temperatures in and out are supposed to be the same. 188F in and 166F out. Really? I asked her if she knows what a radiator does.
2. Heater core was deemed to be good because coolant temps are the same in and out. I did not write the temps down. But I did ask if the blower was on for the test. The answer was 'no'. How can you do a test on the heater core without the blower on? I suspect a core that has 90% blockage would show equal temps in and out without the blower on. Turn the blower on and the out temp will drop quickly.
3. Expansion tank was deemed to be bad because coolant was leaking out between tank and cap. How can that happen when there is air in the top 1/3 of the tank under normal operating conditions, sitting in the shop?
4. Air in the cooling system is the reason for replacing practically everything in the cooling system. My explanation of coolant boiling in the EGR cooler heat exchanger due to low coolant flow in the circuit apparently fell on deaf ears.

When I spoke to the VW corporate service rep I had a couple questions:
Is this behaviour of replacing perfectly good parts with new ones acceptable? Is the lying and cheating of the dealer to make additional money acceptable to corporate VW? They had no answer that meant anything.

I asked some other questions:
Does having a CEL on with an EGR code qualify for coverage under the 4 year warranty? The answer was 'no'.
Can you read to me the 4 year warranty? Do you have a copy? The answer was 'no'. Then I asked if that was not their job, but to know details of warranty, etc. The answer was that it was not their responsibility. Well then, how did they figure out I did not qualify for warranty coverage?

After a couple phone calls with VW I could only think of a couple reasons for this behaviour.
1. They have no choice but to support the dealers. Right or wrong.
2. The 'fix' may have inherent problems. Sure it may pass an emissions test but perhaps there are side effects that they don't want to own up to. Considering how many people were involved in the TDI scam, this would be not much different.

When I asked what happens if I engage the services of one of the court appointed lawyers he said that I would no longer receive the support of VW corporate. What a loss for me!

Dealer is PaulMiller VW Bernardsville NJ
Yes, they and VW made my day a happy one.

forrest resto`s September 3rd, 2017 18:23

So this is what may happen if we need warranty work after the fix?? My God people we have a problem! I am holding off of a fix for sure now.Let's see if anybody else has a problem after fix.... this is B.S. If what he says is all true.. we need to get together somehow and support this guy..

mdl3r1 September 3rd, 2017 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by forrest resto`s (Post 5323638)
So this is what may happen if we need warranty work after the fix?? My God people we have a problem! I am holding off of a fix for sure now.Let's see if anybody else has a problem after fix.... this is B.S. If what he says is all true.. we need to get together somehow and support this guy..

Yes, I wonder too seriously. I have my fix scheduled in 4 days so...am wondering on holding off too... don't wanna overreact but I can totally see them doing these things, and hearing N2's story, it's chilling, because he's explained and encapsulated things so well that even his conclusions are clear and seem like can be no other way.
Thus the caution...though I'd really like the money now...lol....but maybe they want that $ back!!!
Any other thoughts?
Quote:

Originally Posted by N2UADTDI (Post 5323164)
What do you all think about the wording of this sentence in the warranty? Because just about everyone who gets the fix will have to cross this bridge at some point.
[/FONT]

Looks like we're indeed all crossing that bridge eventually...:D


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