Normal oil consumption?

[ReallyBigAir]

Hello All,

First post here on the TDIclub forum.

We recently purchased a 2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium w/68K miles from a local VW Dealer. Clean carefax, all relevant maintenance performed before the buyback. Emissions fix was perform 10/2019 by said dealer and brake rotors/pads, tires, battery, fuel filter were replaced and oil change performed.

I did consult the forum before buying the Passat. BTW, have a family member who owns 3 VW TDIs and they love them. Also have another family member who has owned VW and Audi diesels.

We've driven the car about 3500 miles since purchase and I've noted a significant amount of oil consumption. It is using about one quart of oil per 1200/1300 miles, best I can tell. May be a bit more, or a bit less. I see no sign of any oil leaks and there is no black soot in the tailpipe. No smoke either. However, I do think the car has an unusual mild smell in the cabin, like heat burning off paint or possibly a very mild burning oil smell.

Couple of questions: Is this amount of oil consumption "normal" and expected? If not, what should I look for as a cause? Any obvious typical leak spots that do not show oil drops on the ground underneath the car? Anything to look at as potential signs of oil burning, even with no visible sign of smoke or soot?

I like the car, love the fuel economy and the torque kick in the pants at part throttle. Lots of great high-end features for the cost of admittance for a dieselgate car. However, it will be driven mostly by my wife and son and they are not the most diligent about checking the oil regularly. Would hate to run it low on oil and cause an issue.

Thanks for any advice or guidance you can provide.

 

[thundershorts]

What brand of oil are you using and spec?

 

[ReallyBigAir]

Castrol Edge -507 spec as called for in the manual.

 

[Tom in PT]

My '13 does not burn any oil at all. One place to check is to remove the bottom hose leading to the intercooler and see what if anything drains out. If your turbo seals are bad you might be collecting oil there. I flush that out every oil change as it does tend to accumulate a greenish oily gunk and can foul the sensor at the top of the intercooler.
Look for a thread on cleaning the intercooler without removing it, has more details.

 

[turbobrick240]

That's a lot of oil consumption. I suspect your turbo is on it's way out.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

If the turbo is suspect, where is the oil going? I don't see any sign of burning or leaking oil. Thx.....

 

[turbobrick240]

It passes through into the intake and gets burned up in the combustion chambers. I can't picture the piston rings or valve guides allowing that much consumption at that mileage.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

It passes through into the intake and gets burned up in the combustion chambers

.

Do you think I would notice any smoke, or soot in the tailpipe? There is none.

 

[abishoff]

I’ve been fighting this issues for about 80k miles with my dealership. Everything was fine. Then at about 60k miles I started getting the low oil light. Doing another consumption test at the dealership in 900miles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[turbobrick240]

.

Do you think I would notice any smoke, or soot in the tailpipe? There is none.

Probably not. The dpf catches all the soot as long as it's functional. The extra soot could be getting the dpf nice and toasty though.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

Curious to know what color is your oil? When I checked it at only about 2000-2500 miles after the dealer "supposedly" changed the oil in my (new to me) used car, the oil is very black. I've not owned a diesel before, but the oil in my gas Toyota Sequoia is still golden brown after 5000 miles. There is a Castrol reminder sticker on the windshield with 78,XXX written on it (exactly 10,000 miles from the time I purchased the used vehicle). Do you suppose there is any change the dealer did not actual change the oil? The Carfax shows the pre-delivery inspection by the dealer, plus all of the services performed. It mentions the cabin air filter, fuel filter, tires, brakes and wiper blades, etc. But it does not specifically mention oil changed. Should the dealer be able to confirm that they actually changed the oil?

 

[Tom in PT]

Oil is pitch black in a VW TDI, even right after an oil change. This is perfectly normal, totally unlike a gasser. All signs you point to indicate the oil was changed.

 

[Tom in PT]

Given the other posts here and the suspicion that the turbo (or seals) is the issue, you should definitely do what I suggest in post 4 above and tell us how much oil is draining out of the lower hose inlet to the intercooler. Drop the belly pan below the engine and at the front of the engine right below the radiator you will be looking at the intercooler (tall box shaped aluminum object) and the inlet pipe about 3-4 inches in diameter is at the bottom right of the intercooler secured with a hose clamp.

 

[turbobrick240]

It probably wouldn't hurt to change the oil/filter with the proper 507 spec oil. Something to be said for starting from a known baseline.

 

[Tom in PT]

If the original poster intends to do what I have suggested in post 4, then I would videotape the removal the pipe from the bottom of the intercooler and the collection and removal of all the oil (if in fact it is present there). If I was in their situation, I would be thinking "warranty claim" and want to document as much as you can the symptoms so that you are prepared when you go to the dealer. Dieselgate warranty should still be in effect.

I would also look closely around the oil filter housing for leaks. When you drop the belly pan inspect closely and use a mirror to see signs of seepage or leaking.

I would also look closely at the coolant for any signs of oil in there.

If there are no external leaks, and no oil in the coolant, its going into the combustion chamber one way or another and that indicates something seriously is wrong.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

@Tom in PT - Thanks for the advice. I will be checking for oil in the intercooler hose. Regarding checking the coolant, is there anywhere I can check it, other than the overflow tank? I don't see a radiator cap like I see on most cars. Am I missing something?

 

[Tom in PT]

Check the overflow tank. There is no conventional "radiator cap" like in most vehicles.

If you see little white flecks of debris, coating the tank and the coolant is more orange than pink, you might be on your way to a heater core failure but that is another topic. The presence of oil in the coolant will be obvious especially given the consumption you are reporting.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

Thanks Tom. No oil in the coolant.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

Quick question: Is the TDI intercooler a simple air-to-air intercooler? No water/coolant to deal with? Just remove the "air" hose at the bottom and look for oil?

 

[Tom in PT]

There is no coolant to be concerned about when you remove the 4 inch lower hose. You will likely see some amount of greenish oily goo (condensate), that is "normal" but if you see a lot of black oil too that is not a good sign. Search for and read my thread from a year or so ago about cleaning the intercooler without removing it. It has some good posts in there and user "flyboybob" also has some good posts too, I think he had to replace his turbo due to excess oil consumption, exactly what you are reporting.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

2013 Passat has an air-to-water intercooler.

 

[c3kTDi]

That oil consumption is very excessive.

Something is wrong. Bring it to the dealer and have them document your concerns.

Paper, paper, paper. This will help you later.

Edited to add: burning oil will produce a LOT of soot. The TDI has a soot filter, the "Diesel Particulate Filter" or DPF. This catches all the soot, so you shouldn't see an oily exhaust, even burning oil. As the DPF fills up, that soot needs to be burned off or your exhaust will choke. Diesels do this by adding fuel to the exhaust. This is the Regen Cycle. Based on your description, your vehicle is doing this...a lot. You'll smell hot metal, because that exhaust pipe is getting really heated up. That's normal, but not as frequently as you've described.

1 quart per thousand is outrageous. My TDI (2015) burns less than 1/2 quart in 10,000 miles. Maybe just 1/4?

 

[ReallyBigAir]

OK, I finally got around to checking the inlet pipe at the bottom of the intercooler. I loosened the clamp and pulled off the rubber hose/pipe. No oil drained out. However, I stuck my finger into the hose and there was a bit of black oil. I also stuck my finger into the bottom of the intercooler, and there was a bit more black oil there. It didn't seem like a lot. It wasn't what I would call a pool, but there was certainly some black oil in the bottom of the intercooler.

So, how much to too much? Is a bit of black oil in the bottom of the intercooler a sign of bad turbo seals? Should there be "no oil" there in a healthy turbo?

Lastly, no other signs of oil leaks. No oil on the plastic panel underneath the engine.

 

[740GLE]

That's pretty normal, if noting dumped out and you had to go hunting for it you don't have excessive blow by or turbo seal issues.

 

[Tom in PT]

^ I would agree with that. How often is your car entering a regen cycle? If the oil is getting burned up in the combustion chamber I would think that your DPF filter is going to need a regen for cleaning often, as mentioned above. Is a regen happening ever few weeks or few hundred miles?

 

[turbobrick240]

It's not as common but turbos can pass oil directly into the exhaust turbine too. If my golf had passed oil into the intake at that rate I doubt there would be much more than a coating in the intake. Mainly because I got the boost and flow going pretty much every time I drove it. That car typically went through 1/4 to 1/2 qt per 10k miles. But on one trip across West Texas at 90+ mph with the AC on max it chewed though 2/3 qt in about 600 miles. The main thing is to make sure you keep the oil topped up.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

About regen: How would I know how often the car is going through a regen cycle? I have heard the fans running full blast, after shutting the car off, 2 or 3 times. However, my son and wife primarily drive the car, so I don't really know.

Regarding boost: I think I'm seeing a common theme, that driving in a way to insure the turbo is spinning up is a good thing for oil consumption and reliability. Seems like a bad idea for fuel economy, but I'll take a bit of fuel inefficiency in favor of long term reliability.

Lastly, the oil consumption seems to have gone down considerably over the last thousand miles or so. At this point, I think I'll do an oil change and track the consumption a bit more closely. Would anyone suggest I actually take the car into my local dealer for the oil change and to start an oil consumption test?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Couple thoughts. First, you'd be hard-pressed to drive the car in a way that doesn't spool the turbo. I wouldn't worry about that.

And I wouldn't bother with the oil consumption test until you have a clear view of how much oil the car is using. Sounds like you need a series of consistent measures, perhaps starting with an oil change and the sump properly topped up, and then monitoring it for the duration of the OC interval. If you do see high consumption (less than 2K/Liter) then you might want them to run a test. Right now it might just be a frustrating use of time.

 

[740GLE]

It is using about one quart of oil per 1200/1300 miles, best I can tell.

I think this is the biggest detail.

How are you measureing the oil is low? if the oil is on the dip stick in the hash marks, that's considered the normal range, if you're filling to the top bulb (or over) you may be over filling and that may cause your issue.

The 2013 Passat had no oil level sensor to let you know if you over filled.

 

[ReallyBigAir]

I'm measuring consumption using the dots at the top and bottom of the hash marks on the dipstick. My first indication of consumption was checking the oil about 1500 miles after the purchase (and dealer oil change) and finding oil only on the bottom bulb. I put a quart in it and then checked it again after a short drive and drain-down. The oil was in the middle of the hash marks. Since then, I've been checking it regularly and keeping the oil level in the top half of the hash marks, checked with engine cold, after a night of drain-down.

Consumption has slowed over the last 2-3 weeks. Over about the first 2500 miles of our ownership, it consumed about 2 quarts. Over the last 2000 miles, it has consumed about a quart. Seems to be slowing. Makes me wonder if the long dieselgate sleep has something to do with the initial consumption. Per CarFax, looks like the car sat for a year and a half or so, then was purchased and the dieselgate fix was implemented by the dealer around the Nov. 1, 2019. Anyone have any thoughts about the possibility of the car sitting for a year and a half having anything to do with the initial (post fix) consumption of oil?