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-   -   TDI in SCCA autox, etc.? (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=487261)

gearheadgrrrl March 13th, 2018 07:14

TDI in SCCA autox, etc.?
 
Planning a restoration of a 60s Mini Cooper S and was consulting the SCCA rules to see what mods would be OK, that's a long term project that will take years to complete. Then I noticed that SCCA has put the 4 cylinder VW TDIs in the bottom class! Now that might make sense for the 90 HP A3s and A4s, but the 140 HP A6s and 150 HP A7s look to be competitive, especially given the efficient VW drivetrain that puts about 90% of that power to the wheels!

Anybody tried running a TDI in SCCA events?

Powder Hound March 13th, 2018 17:54

Bottom class of what? They have a lot of different classes. Production class? H? They probably need a J or K for the ALH TDI to be competitive.What with the relatively low horsepower and a redline under 5k rpms, I'd wonder if they're going to be competitive even there. In a recent post, Oilhammer noted that he did his very best to set up a golf and yet a bone stock clapped out Miata on the cheapest crummiest tires available from K-Mart ran away laughing in the curves after he could barely keep up on the straight.

So race it if you will - hope you enjoy watching everyone else's taillights.

As far as the higher powered common rail engines - maybe there's a calculation that puts them in a higher class. Or maybe they're allowing them to have a chance so as to encourage diesel drivers. Or maybe nobody noticed that rule yet...

Cheers,

PH

Powder Hound March 13th, 2018 17:55

Double post - don't know how that happened. :mad:

gearheadgrrrl March 13th, 2018 18:06

H is the slowest street class...
 
And SCCA has plopped all the 4 cylinder TDIs in it. Seems like the fast car is the Fiesta ST, otherwise I suspect a 2 liter TDI would be competitiive. Here's the list of cars in the class:

Street (HS) - Appendix A
Acura
CL (all)
ILX
Integra (all except Type R) (1986-
2001)
Legend
RSX
RSX Type S
TL
TSX
Vigor
Alfa Romeo
164 (non-S) (1991-93)
1300
1600
1750 & 1750 GTV
2000 (4-door sedan)
GTV V6
Milano
Sedan (NOC)
AMC
Gremlin (4-cyl & 6-cyl)
Spirit (4-cyl & 6-cyl)
Audi
80
90
100 (non-S4)
200 Turbo quattro
4000
5000 (non-turbo)
5000 Turbo
A3 (FWD) (2006-13)
Coupe quattro (non-turbo)
S4 (100 CS chassis) (1992-94)
Austin
Mini
Austin-Healey
(all)
BMW
1600
1800
2000 CS coupe
2002
318 (all)
320
7 Series (6-cyl)
i3 (2014-16)
Buick
Reatta
Verano (non-turbo) (2013-17)
Cadillac
Catera
Chevrolet
Aveo
Beretta (NOC)
Camaro (4-cyl & 6-cyl) (1967-
2002)
Chevette
Cobalt (2.2L, all) (2005-10)
Corvair (all)
Cruze
Nova (FWD) (1986-88)
Nova (RWD, 4-cyl & 6-cyl) (1962-
79)
Sonic (all) (2012-17)
Spectrum
Sprint
Vega & Cosworth Vega
Volt (2011-17)
Chrysler
200 (4-cyl) (2010-17)
300M (1999-2004)
Cirrus (V6)
Laser (all)
PT Cruiser (non-turbo) (2001-
2010)
Sebring (all)
Daewoo
(all)
Datsun
1200
1500 & 1600 Roadster
210 & B-210
310
510
610
710
810
F10
Dodge
024
Avenger (all)
Challenger (1978-83)
Charger (non-turbo, FWD)
(1981-87)
Colt (all)
Dart (FWD) (2013-17)
Daytona (all)
GLH (non-turbo)
Intrepid
Lancer Turbo
H Street class (HS)
2017 SCCA® National Solo® Rules — 153
Appendix A - (HS) Street
Neon (2000-05)
Omni
Rampage
Shadow (all)
Spirit (all)
Stealth (non-turbo)
Stratus (all)
Eagle
Summit (all)
Talon (all, FWD)
Fiat
500 Abarth (2012-17)
NOC
Ford
Aspire
Contour (all)
Cortina
Escort (non-ZX2 S/R)
EXP
Festiva
Fiesta (1976-80)
Fiesta ST (2014-17)
Five Hundred
Focus (except
ST 2013-17
and
RS
)
Fusion (4-cyl)
Mustang (4-cyl, 6-cyl, & 4-cyl
Turbo except SVO) (1964½-
93)
Pinto
Probe (all)
Taurus (non-SHO)
Tempo (all)
Thunderbird (V6, non-S/C)
(1989-97)
Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
ZX2 (non-S/R)
General Motors
FWD models (NOC)
RWD V6 models (NOC)
Geo
Metro
Prizm
Spectrum
Storm
Honda
600
800
Accord (all)
Civic (all, excluding Mugen 2008)
(1975-2015)
Civic (EX, LX, Sport, Touring)
(2016-17)
CRX (all)
CR-Z
del Sol & Civic del Sol (all)
Fit
Insight
Prelude (all)
Hyundai
Accent (1995-2017)
Elantra (1990-2017)
Scoupe
Tiburon
Veloster (non-turbo) (2012-17)
Veloster Turbo (non-Rally Edition)
(2012-17)
NOC
Infiniti
G20
M30
Isuzu
I-Mark
Impulse (non-turbo)
Stylus
Jaguar
120
140
150
X-Type (2.5L) (2002-05)
Kia
Forte & Forte Koup (2.0L)
Forte5 (2014-17)
Optima
Rio (2012-17)
Sephia
Spectra5
Lancia
Beta
Scorpion
Lexus
CT 200h (2011-17)
ES 250
ES 300
GS 300
Lincoln
LS (V6)
Lotus
Cortina
Mazda
323 (non-turbo)
626
HS (continued)
154 — 2017 SCCA® National Solo® Rules
Street (HS) - Appendix A
808
929
Cosmo
GLC
Mazda2 (2011-14)
Mazda3 (2004-17)
Mazda6 (all)
Millenia (all)
MX-3
MX-6 (all)
Protégé (non-Mazdaspeed)
R100
RX-2
RX-3
RX-4
Mercedes
280 (1995-2000)
NOC
Mercury
Bobcat
Capri (all except V8)
Cougar (4-cyl & V6 non-S/C)
LN-7
Lynx
Milan (all)
Montego
Mystique (all)
Sable
Scorpio
Topaz (all)
Tracer
MG
all
MINI
Clubman (non-S, non-JCW)
(2008-14)
Cooper Coupe (non-S, non-JCW)
(2012-15)
Cooper Hardtop (non-S, non-
JCW) (2002-13)
Cooper Roadster (non-S, non-
JCW) (2012-15)
Mitsubishi
3000 GT (non-turbo)
Cordia
Eclipse (all, FWD) (1989-2012)
Galant (4-cyl non-turbo)
Lancer (non-turbo)
Mirage
Precis
Premier
Starion (non-turbo)
Tredia
Nissan/Datsun
200SX (all)
240SX
300ZX (non-turbo) (1984-89)
Altima (all)
Leaf (2011-17)
Maxima (all)
NX1600
NX2000 (1991-93)
Pulsar
Sentra (all)
Stanza
Versa (2007-17)
Oldsmobile
Calais W41
Opel
1100
1900
GT
Isuzu
Manta
Peugeot
405 (all)
505 (1979-91)
Pininfarina
2000
Plymouth
Acclaim (all)
Arrow
Champ
Colt
Horizon
Laser (non-turbo)
Neon (2000-01)
Sapporo
Scamp
Sundance (all)
TC3
Turismo
Pontiac
Fiero (4-cyl)
Firebird (4-cyl & 6-cyl)
G5 (all)
G8 (V6) (2008-09)
LeMans (FWD) (1988-93)
Sunfire
T-1000
Vibe
HS (continued)
2017 SCCA® National Solo® Rules — 155
Appendix A - (HS) Street
Porsche
356 (non-Carrera)
912
924 (Audi engine, non-turbo)
Renault
NOC
Saab
900 (V6) (1994-97)
NOC
Saturn
8v
Astra (2008-09)
DOHC model (NOC)
Ion (non-turbo)
L series (all)
Scion
iA (2016)
iM (2016)
tC (incl. Release Series 5.0 2009)
(2005-16)
xA (2004-06)
xB (2008-12)
Shelby
Charger (non-turbo)
Subaru
Impreza 2.0i
Impreza (NOC)
Legacy (NOC)
SVX
Sedan Turbo (NOC)
NOC
Sunbeam
Alpine
Suzuki
Esteem GL
Forenza
Kizashi (2010-13)
Swift
SX4 sedan (2007-13)
Toyota
Camry (all)
Celica (FWD; NOC)
Celica (all, non-AWD) (1971-99)
Corolla
Cressida
Echo
Matrix
Paseo
Prius (all)
Starlet
Supra (non-turbo) (1979-92)
Tercel
Yaris
Triumph
all except Stag & TR-8
Volkswagen
air-cooled engine (all)
diesel engine (non-turbo) (all)
Beetle (2.0L)
Dasher
Eos (2.0T) (2007-16)
Fox
Golf, GTI & Jetta (16v
non-turbo
)
Golf, GTI & Jetta (8v, all)
Golf TDI
Jetta (2.5L) (2005-14)
Jetta TDI (2005-06, 2009-16)
New Beetle (NOC)
Passat (4-cyl non-turbo & V6)
Quantum
Rabbit & Rabbit GTI (all, NOC)
Rabbit (2007-09)
Scirocco (all)
VR6 (FWD, NOC)
Volvo
C30
NOC
Yugo
all
“Catch-all”:
RWD pickup trucks (NOC)

shepner March 14th, 2018 05:23

Ive been racing my 2015 Golf TDI in SCCA Solo for the last couple years. The car is in HS. The Fiesta STs are (unfortunately) slightly faster so Im always chasing their times but my (lack of) skill is also a factor there. Most of them are simply better drivers. Regardless, Im running in the upper end of the class. For reference, the guy in Pro running a 2015 GTI in GS with much the same setup is generally around 6-10s faster then me.

Note that in HSAX, the Fiesta ST and the mk7 TDI are completely different classes. Tho I noticed that their times on the track still werent much better then mine :)

oilhammer March 14th, 2018 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder Hound (Post 5389820)
, Oilhammer noted that he did his very best to set up a golf and yet a bone stock clapped out Miata on the cheapest crummiest tires available from K-Mart ran away laughing in the curves after he could barely keep up on the straight.

Actually that was with my '95 ABA powered Golf Sport (what the GTIs were called here that year, for some reason). And I would have eventually passed the Miata on the straight... if they were long enough, LOL.

A mildly modded ALH Golf would handily spank the dickens out of any ABA Golf, especially if you graced it with LSD so you could get its torque to the ground. The ABA Golf has no issue with wheelspin... the 2.slo just doesn't have it in it. :o

I think this type of thing is just for fun, and not really something to be taken too seriously. I never did.

I ran my Upsoluted '98 Jetta TDI a few times.... it wasn't very fast, but between the diesel smoke and tire smoke, it was at least entertaining for the rest of the crowd. :D

gearheadgrrrl March 14th, 2018 08:45

I'm in it for the fun...
 
The Cooper S with maybe 60 net HP and 1500 pounds would be competitive only on a very tight narrow course, I want to autox and rallyx it because that's what Cooper Ss were built for. As for TDIs, the Focus ST with nearly 200 HP and a bit less weight than a TDI really should be in a higher class, but SCCA's tendency to misclassify cars is legendary. None the less, would be fun to run either my A4 or A7 Golf TDIs, especially with the fuel cranked up to "smoke" levels!

IndigoBlueWagon March 14th, 2018 09:17

Stock or nearly stock TDIs aren't very fast and don't handle very well. They understeer a ton, spin inside wheels exiting turns, and don't get a lot of speed on the straights. Suspension mods make a big difference in driving fun, but without fueling and turbo upgrades they still aren't fast.

CNGVW March 15th, 2018 13:59

As a true roadrace TDI yes the fastest Beetle TDI in the USA 2 years running !! They can kill most cars off the turn.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/medium/1_5931.jpg
If you follow some of my posts you can find some of my setups that work.
A good tune is a must big tires and rims

vwztips March 20th, 2018 19:09

Many years ago I used to autocross my 1973 914 2.0.

Reading this post has rekindled that desire and thinking about running my 2012 Tiguan with a CJAA and 6 speed manual, tuned and lowered. It is very quick. Handling isn't bad either.

gearheadgrrrl March 20th, 2018 20:48

Check the SCCA Solo rule book first- They have a width/height rule that seems to ban most SUVs from competition.

vwztips March 20th, 2018 20:57

Yeah, I know. Hopefully they will allow a few fun runs at the end

gearheadgrrrl March 21st, 2018 19:10

I suspect it's an insurance mandated requirement. IIRC the classic Mini runs afoul of their formula, but it looks like they allow participation if the CG can be proven to be low enough. Wonder how hard it is to find the vertical CG of a Tiguan?

DieselTechMike April 1st, 2018 07:23

What modifications are allowed in your class? Secondly, are the modifications a blanket rule book for the whole class, or are they specific to each vehicle?

Not knowing what the modifications allowed are, it would be logical to me to have an AWD 6 speed transmission PD or CR TDI vehicle that is model and year allowed. LSD the front and rear, upgraded nozzles, EGR shut off in the ECU, a class organ 3 inch straight pipe turbo back exhaust, class legal after cooling upgrades (FMIC or side mount), extrude honed the head, fire ring the block and head, head studs and main studs, class legal intake manifold that’s been extrude honed, upgraded VNT turbo with extrude honed manifold and the manifold being thermal wrapped and a turbo blanket, thermal barrier on the intake manifold and some sort of cold air intake tube that has a thermal barrier, class legal suspension modifications and brake modifications, legal “light weight” modifications, and a custom tune would make the car competitive in the class. But the tipping point is would the expense of these modifications be worth it/worth the reward? That last question is one that only you can answer. I’ve seen and learned from the tractor/truck pulling arena that once you filling under stand the guidelines and rules of the class your running in, you then can figure out how to operate at the very edge of the rules.

bobbiemartin April 17th, 2018 05:01

Are you considering building a dedicated autocross car? If so, I would just build what you want and have fun in whatever class they put you in. You are building a 60's Cooper S? Sliding window shells are not cheap and finding the proper S components are not cheap either. For autocross, I would source a later shell and build up a nice 1275 (or bigger) A+. But even that will not be cheap. A MKIV TDI would not be terribly expensive and with a few reasonably cheap mods could be a fun car. But for the cost, a Miata is hard to beat. Building a car to a class winner is expensive and more complex than just going out and having fun. If you find later you want to try to and have a class winner, you will have a better idea what it may take. A stripped down well running TDI would be a lot of fun and would probably beat some gas powered cars, but a well sorted Mini would run rings around it!:D


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