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-   -   PD Engine stalls when Hot; won't restart . . (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=142411)

Ry-dog June 16th, 2006 14:55

PD Engine stalls when Hot; won't restart . .
 
. . . Until it has completely cooled down.

2004 Golf PD, 37,000 miles; Located in Mass. - time of issue is June 2006 - ambient temps in the 70-80s deg F. Everytime this has happened, I had at least 3/4 full tank of diesel.

After driving 2.5 hours (about 140 miles), then a lot of stop and go, I had trouble starting the engine - felt like air in the lines, so I tightened my hose clamps and it would start again. Then I start driving and it would stall out without warning (driving down hills, in stop+go traffic). I'd pull of the side of the road, let it cool down, then it would start again only to die about 3 minutes later. Towed it to the VW dealership and they noted that the glow plug light wasn't coming on and the engine wouldn't start. Let it cool down and the glow plug light comes on = engine starts. They said they'd hold it for the night, run tests in the morning, test drive it and let me know whats up.

Picked it up this morning and they VAG-COMM'd it and the TDI computer wasn't throwing any codes at all, so VW says they can't find anything wrong with it - they took it out for a 20 minute test drive and it ran fine, so they sent me home with my car.

Drove on the MASS pike from Pittsfield towards home (Leominster, MA), and it died on the pike in Springfield. Got it towed with AAAplus to the VW shop in Leominster (only to find that it is no longer a dealership as of last month = no warranty work at this shop). After the tow truck driver dropped the car (2 hour drive = adequate cool down period) = car starts and I was able to manuever it in the lot

Any suggestions?

I fear that it may be the glow plug relay?? - I thought I read something about this as a TSB (technical service bulletin??) and a number of these repairs have been required under VW warranty??

Does this issue sound anything like that?

The VW shop in Pittsfield never heard of it and the former Leominster VW shop said if there are no codes from the TDI computer, they will have a difficult time finding the problem too (and I'll have to pay for it since they don't do warranty work).

My closest VW dealership is about 35 miles away, and I don't think my car will make it without dying again. I bought my car used from a VW dealership, so I don't know if I have VW roadside assistance or not (I think I maxed out my AAA service for this year already).

v8volvo June 16th, 2006 14:59

Problems in the GP system might affect starting, but they would not account for the stalling. Once a diesel is running, it's running until you stall it yourself, or turn it off. I think you're on the right track with a fuel supply issue...fuel filter? Loose line connections? Blocked pickup screen? Check those. Could also be related to the fuel-injection system. Check wiring connections, grounds, look for coolant migration, etc. Something is killing the fuel for some reason.

khill June 16th, 2006 15:11

in tank fuel pump?
 
Mine failed in an intermittent fashion. There was no real pattern to it. Good luck, and do not leave home without your cell phone. KHILL

Ry-dog June 17th, 2006 17:48

Not sure if it could be the intank fuel pump since the engine only dies when it is at full operating temperature for about 30-45 minutes - then the other clue is that the glow plug light indicator does not come on at all after the engine stalls out.

When the engine cools down, the glow plug light indicator comes on for a brief moment and the car starts.

Is there any kind of temp sensor that would throw off the ECU, thus causing the engine to die when its at full operating temperature for the 30-45 minute time period?

If so, I would expect that a failing temp sensor would be detected by VAG-COMM?

ninedee_golf_tdi June 17th, 2006 18:27

I've never seen a PD electrical system before. Since it's a hot running problem, I would guess something like a main power relay. Gets hot, a weak solder joint opens and the car dies. Joint cools off and closes the circuit again, car runs. Now, you just have to figure out which relay it could be. Go find a neighbor with a PD engine, and swap relays one at a time til you find the culprit.

PDJetta June 17th, 2006 18:45

It does sound like a fuel starvation problem. Next time it stalls, make sure you can hear the in-tank electric feed pump come on when you turn on the key. McBew said you can hear the pump alot better if you lift up the rear seat. Both he (his mom's '04) and I have had the in-tank pump fail. No sound, pump no workie.

Another thought, is the VIN of your car within the recall range for the "tandem, pump recall"? That's the fuel/vacuum pump on the left of the cylinder head, driven by the camshaft. Some '04s and 05s had defective fasteners on the pump, causing fuel and air leaks and no run or poor running. The dealer should verify if it needs the pump replaced under the recall.

Third guess is the fuel filter got plugged. The dealer should put a new filter on it as part of the warranty work.

--Nate

--Nate

whitedog June 17th, 2006 19:07

Sheesh, is the relay 109, or is it the fuel pumperoni? Magic 8 ball says....

"Answer is murky."

No! Wait. Since we know that sometimes the glow plug light doesn't come on, that would indicate an electrical problem. Take a look at that Relay 109. Grey is good, Black is bad.

**Runs to look at my relay 109...**

Ry-dog June 19th, 2006 08:18

Relay 109 = Power Supply Relay??
 
The VW shop in Pittsfield said they swapped out my "power supply relay" with a brand new one, but it did not fix my problem.

Is the power supply relay the 109??

I'm going to bring it in to an "official" VW shop today or tommorrow.

TEM June 19th, 2006 08:50

I recently had a very similiar problem with my 04 Jetta PD. I thought it was the fuel filter. Changed it out, it seemed to fix it for a couple of days. The dealer said there was air in the lines. The car stalled on the road. I had it towed to the dealer, he purged the lines and they said it was fixed. The next day the hoopty barely started on my way to work.

I had noticed a diesel fuel odor in the cabin prior to this problem, checked for leaks and found nothing. Then a week or so later, the wonderfully engineered tandem pump began leaking fuel.

The dealer replaced the fuel pump under warranty, although I had 55k miles on it. That seemed to fix the problem, the car starts fine and runs fine.

rdkern June 19th, 2006 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ry-dog
The VW shop in Pittsfield said they swapped out my "power supply relay" with a brand new one, but it did not fix my problem.

Is the power supply relay the 109??

yes it is.

Ry-dog June 19th, 2006 10:15

TEM -

Was your VIN on the list that the recall was issued for?

I checked the list and my VIN is outside the range for the recalls. I was curious to know if yours had this problem and your VIN was outside the recall range too.

TEM June 19th, 2006 10:22

No. It was not on the VIN List. They gave me some crap about Passats being under the recall, but never heard of the problem for the Golf or Jetta.

I politely raised some hell and the service manager was nice enough to give me another. I think they are only under warranty for 24k. So I guess I was lucky they replaced mine with 55k on it.

I think he realized its very rare for a fuel pump to go bad in 2 years time.

Believe me, they will do anything in their power to not admit the pump is the problem.

I can't be 100% sure you have the same problem I had, but it sure sounds very similiar.

Ry-dog June 19th, 2006 12:00

Thanks for the info, TEM.

Did you notice whether your glow plug indicator light would be off when trying to start up?

I think my problem sounds similar too, but it has happened 8 times or so and the same theme always occurs - engine is at full operating temp for 30 minutes or so, then it dies. When I try to restart after the stall, the glow plug indicator light is OFF and won't even blink on for a second.

When the engine cools down, the glow plug indicator light comes back on, and the engine starts.

Thanks. Ryan

TEM June 19th, 2006 19:08

Mine died three times when hot. Just driving down the highway and bam, nothing. I only noticed the glow plug light off once, and that was the last time it konked out.

I had difficulty starting it during the morning. Once it got going it would run ok. Then I would park it for a while and I would have difficulty starting it again. But towards the end of this problem it would stall while I was driving. Always convenient when your in BFE.

Your problem may well be glow plugs, you never know with VWs and their 3rd grade electrical engineers.

Normally, if I have electrical working and the car won't start or run properly its a fuel managment system.

Then again we are talking VW.

rdkern June 19th, 2006 20:27

glow plugs don't cause problems with heat.


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