Febi vs Colt vs Frank06

[db123]

Good morning.

So withing the next month I am planning to do a Balance Shaft Delete/Timing Belt job. I am thinking of replacing the cam, the car has 207,000kms (~130,000miles) on it. I bought it in the fall with that many kms on it and haven't driven it since I got it home.

What are people seeing in terms of mileage with respect to cam failure? I know it has all to do with proper oil used. I'm just wondering if I should consider doing it now, or can I wait until my next timing belt job.

If general consensus is do it now, then I'm wondering what people think of the Febi cams vs the Colt or Frank06 cams. IDParts offers a great Febi cam package for probably half the cost of the Colt or Frank06 cams. Is my thinking backwards that I could replace the cam twice for the price of the other cams?

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[vwztips]

I have used both the Febi and Frank06 cams and both have performed great. The last Febi cam I installed was incredibly quiet (relatively speaking of course). For the Frank06 cam, to get the best MPG you have to set torsion value to -4.0.

 

[blujett2.0]

I think it depends on oil. I'm at 290K on mine with the original cam. It is starting to show signs of wear but still going strong. I too would like to know what people prefer for cams for WHEN (not if) mine goes.

 

[johnboy00]

Check it! Don't just replace it. I'm at 213,000 miles and my cam was fine the last time it was checked at about 190,000 miles.

If I still have my Passat at the next timing belt change around 260,000 miles, I might think about it, but I doubt the economics will be there to keep the car running.

Here's something to think about:

This one went to 400,000 MILES on the original cam and transmission. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=432523&highlight=passat

 

[Zambee500]

What are people seeing in terms of mileage with respect to cam failure? I know it has all to do with proper oil used.

Mine died at 138k miles and I had it replaced with a franko6 'stage2' cam. At about 185k now and have been quite happy with it. Not to knock Febi though.

I don't know that it has "all" to do with proper oil. The use of wrong oil definitely plays a large part, but in talking with Frank during the process he seemed to think high ambient temps also played some part in it. Not that there weren't cam failures up north, but Frank indicated that he was seeing a disproportionate number of failures in hot locations like the South, Texas, Southwest. etc. I don't want to speak for Frank though, as I may have misunderstood what he was saying or he may have subsequently changed his mind since that time.

You're up in Canada, so why don't you do what the post above suggests and check it first and then decide what to do.

 

[truman]

I have used both the Febi and Frank06 cams and both have performed great. The last Febi cam I installed was incredibly quiet (relatively speaking of course). For the Frank06 cam, to get the best MPG you have to set torsion value to -4.0.

I have my Franko6 reprofiled BEW set at -4.9, so my measurements confirm torsion for max mpgs. This cam has a very wide range of adjustment. I like mine a lot. Can't speak to the others.

 

[wtribeflyer]

20k on my Febi. Running like a champ. Changed at 79k due to piston/valve contact.

 

[abctdi]

It's pretty easy to check it, should take 1/2 to 1 hour at most.

 

[db123]

Is there a procedure that outlines how to perform a check on the cams?

It's pretty easy to check it, should take 1/2 to 1 hour at most.

 

[abctdi]

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/camshaft-lobe-wear-inspection-and-replacement-on-tdi-pd-engine/

You basically R&R the valve cover, look around with flashlight, etc.

 

[Whitbread]

For the umpteenth time, the problem with pd cams is NOT oil. It's incorrect geometry on the valve lobes. Yes, crappy oil and short trips are known to accelerate the wear, but no magic oil will cure a geometry issue. Any OE replacement cam with have same geometry issues as the original you're replacing.

I've done over 50 cams on cars owned by club members with white glove maintenance records from mile 1. They all needed cams between 65kmi and 150kmi. Random passat owned by farmer that was fed 15w-40 Rotella changed whenever from day one made it to 297kmi.

Im not going to get into politics on cam brands, all I'm going to say is only buy a colt or frank. They are both good and will last. Do not cheap out and buy an oe replacement as you'll be back doing it at next timing belt change. What's cheaper now?

 

[truman]

For the umpteenth time, the problem with pd cams is NOT oil. It's incorrect geometry on the valve lobes. Yes, crappy oil and short trips are known to accelerate the wear, but no magic oil will cure a geometry issue. Any OE replacement cam with have same geometry issues as the original you're replacing.

I've done over 50 cams on cars owned by club members with white glove maintenance records from mile 1. They all needed cams between 65kmi and 150kmi. Random passat owned by farmer that was fed 15w-40 Rotella changed whenever from day one made it to 297kmi.

Im not going to get into politics on cam brands, all I'm going to say is only buy a colt or frank. They are both good and will last. Do not cheap out and buy an oe replacement as you'll be back doing it at next timing belt change. What's cheaper now?

Good advice
You couldn't pay me to take back the original cam

 

[tdic]

Good advice
You couldn't pay me to take back the original cam

For the umpteenth time, the problem with pd cams is NOT oil. It's incorrect geometry on the valve lobes. Yes, crappy oil and short trips are known to accelerate the wear, but no magic oil will cure a geometry issue. Any OE replacement cam with have same geometry issues as the original you're replacing.
I've done over 50 cams on cars owned by club members with white glove maintenance records from mile 1. They all needed cams between 65kmi and 150kmi. Random passat owned by farmer that was fed 15w-40 Rotella changed whenever from day one made it to 297kmi.
Im not going to get into politics on cam brands, all I'm going to say is only buy a colt or frank. They are both good and will last. Do not cheap out and buy an oe replacement as you'll be back doing it at next timing belt change. What's cheaper now?

What's wrong with OEM cams? Most guys are getting atleast 200,000km out of them. Other than performance gains, how are we to know if these Franko6, or Colt cams are any better. How many people have gotten 200,000+ out of one of these cams?

 

[otty]

What's wrong with OEM cams? Most guys are getting atleast 200,000km out of them. Other than performance gains, how are we to know if these Franko6, or Colt cams are any better. How many people have gotten 200,000+ out of one of these cams?

Ya, and with the Franko6 cam costing double the price I don't see that it is worth it especially if you install the cam yourself. ~$500 for a Febi cam every 200000km is not a terrible problem in my view...

 

[BuzzKen]

For the umpteenth time, the problem with pd cams is NOT oil. It's incorrect geometry on the valve lobes. Yes, crappy oil and short trips are known to accelerate the wear, but no magic oil will cure a geometry issue. Any OE replacement cam with have same geometry issues as the original you're replacing.

umpteenth +1

 

[truman]

I don't know whether the franko6 cam will last longer, but it sure performs better. I don't regret spending the extra money. Quality is remembered, long after the price is forgotten- IMO.

 

[tdic]

I don't know whether the franko6 cam will last longer, but it sure performs better. I don't regret spending the extra money. Quality is remembered, long after the price is forgotten- IMO.

You don't know if the frank cam will last longer, but you seem quite sure that it is better. "couldn't pay me to take back the original cam" What is so much better about the frank cam that you're willing to make such a strong statement? Outside of lifespan, which at this point is somewhat of an unknown, what is better. Has your fuel economy increased? If so by how much?

Forgive me for being sceptical, but I'm having a really hard time believing the claims of some guy called franko6, who from face value appears to be some guy building heads in his backyard. Especially when there's a whole website dedicated to his dissatisfied customers. Don't get me wrong he could be a great guy who really knows what he's doing, and produces a great product, I'm just looking for the proof. Can't just believe what ever you're told

 

[truman]

FE is up about 2mpg and range of torsion the engine will tolerate is much more flexible. Seat of the pants, I can't swear to a power difference. The original was not in dire straights when it was changed out either. I realize my statement is not scientific fact, but there is a discernible difference between the 2 cams. No way would I consider the original to be equivalent. If I just wanted to go cheaper/maybe better, I would consider a BEW vs a BHW. My reprofiled BEW runs just fine at -4.9 torsion. -2.5 was max on the old cam. "I think" frank's cam can be dialed in for either more power or more FE. The old cam produced max 38mpg on my daily commute. The new one will hit 42 regularly. Remain a skeptic, if that's your pleasure.

 

[imo000]

You need to compare brand new OE cams to these aftermarket alterred cams. Otherwise it's not a fair comparison. 2mpg is almost statistically insignificant. Could be tires, tire pressure, season (winter vs summer) and so on.

 

[tdic]

Talked to Colt Cams today. Their cams are heat treated much deeper than OEM. He said that they mainly focused their heat treating on the lobe, and very little is done to the base circle. In all reality the base circle wouldn't have much of a need for heat treating, as there is very little load at that point. To me it just speaks to the quality of the cam. ALso the fact that they are willing to offer a 5 year 500,000 mile warranty says a lot about their confidence in their product. I think this will be the cam that I go with

 

[vwztips]

You don't know if the frank cam will last longer, but you seem quite sure that it is better. "couldn't pay me to take back the original cam" What is so much better about the frank cam that you're willing to make such a strong statement? Outside of lifespan, which at this point is somewhat of an unknown, what is better. Has your fuel economy increased? If so by how much?

Forgive me for being sceptical, but I'm having a really hard time believing the claims of some guy called franko6, who from face value appears to be some guy building heads in his backyard. Especially when there's a whole website dedicated to his dissatisfied customers. Don't get me wrong he could be a great guy who really knows what he's doing, and produces a great product, I'm just looking for the proof. Can't just believe what ever you're told

Did I click on Twitter by mistake where any ya-hoo can trash anyone for no real reason other than what they read on another Twitter account? If you are going to flame somebody, do so from first hand experience, otherwise stay on Twitter.

So why do you call and talk to Colt, but don't take the time to do the same with Frank? You would quickly realize that Frank is no "back yard" mechanic. Obviously being fair and objective is not your goal.

I have used Frank's cams numerous times, and each time with good results.

 

[James & Son]

If you read this( entire chapter 23), you soon realize why success is a hit and miss proposition when you realize one simple fact. Anything passing through the contact can't be larger than .1 to .2 micrometer. Cams are being manufactured to .5 Ra or worse and the filters only filter to 6 micrometers. Initially the cam should not be rougher than .3 micrometer roughness at the worse case or else the asperity is to large to snipe off low enough to get the .15 micrometer breakin smoothness and the cam actually gets rougher than smoother as explained.

After reading this I an installing a 2 micron by pass filter asap.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=E_...=film strength verses traction in EHL&f=false

 

[tdic]

Did I click on Twitter by mistake where any ya-hoo can trash anyone for no real reason other than what they read on another Twitter account? If you are going to flame somebody, do so from first hand experience, otherwise stay on Twitter.

So why do you call and talk to Colt, but don't take the time to do the same with Frank? You would quickly realize that Frank is no "back yard" mechanic. Obviously being fair and objective is not your goal.

I have used Frank's cams numerous times, and each time with good results.

Down boy!

I wasn't "flaming" frank at all. As I said in my post "he could be a great guy who really knows what he's doing, and produces a great product" I've tried getting in touch with frank several times, the one time he did respond it was very short, and didn't adequately address my concerns. I didn't take that to mean that he was a as&^^le, just that he was busy, too busy for me, so I moved on

With a complete and total lack of any kind of professional business appearance, you can't really blame a guy for being sceptical. I've been burnt by taking the word of forumers before, so I'm naturally more cautious now.

With both Kerma, and Colt Cams having answered my calls, and more than adequately addressing my concerns, I'm left feeling a lot more comfortable about their product. I would deffiniatly buy from Kerma again. Plus when someone gives me their time I feel obligated to not waste theirs. So I buy from them.

I'm not ruling frank out, nor am I saying that he shouldn't be used or trusted. I honestly can't say either way. All I'm saying is that I am very happy with my experience with Kerma, and Colt, and would definitely buy from Kerma again.

Furthermore, people like you are the reason that many lurk, for fear of being ridiculed for stating their opinion.

 

[wtribeflyer]

20k on my Febi. Running like a champ. Changed at 79k due to piston/valve contact.

*UPDATE* 30k on my Febi and still running and strong

 

[vwztips]

No, you did flame him THEN you gave him a back handed "compliment". If you can't see that you need reread your post from another point of view. I rarely jump into the fray like this but "People like me", and others here, have been there and done that multiple times, yet you refuse to listen to wise advice, and then make inflammatory comments about a very reputable vendor. So yes "people like me" will defend good vendors when necessary.

I have no connection to Frank other than being a customer. Sometimes he has his hands full trying to satisfy customers and get their orders out, but has called me back and talked with me at length several times. Sometimes a little patience is needed.

 

[tdic]

db123, sorry for hijacking your thread. This will be my last post on this thread unless someone wants to ask me about my Colt Cam.

JETaah, Google it.

vwztips, we will have to agree to disagree, and just chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

If either of you two have any more comments for me NOT directly related to the topic of this thread, pm me.

 

[Franko6]

"...Forgive me for being sceptical, but I'm having a really hard time believing the claims of some guy called franko6, who from face value appears to be some guy building heads in his backyard. Especially when there's a whole website dedicated to his dissatisfied customers. Don't get me wrong he could be a great guy who really knows what he's doing, and produces a great product, I'm just looking for the proof. Can't just believe what ever you're told

So, is there a problem with me calling myself 'Franko6'? Some backyard mechanic with a negative website in my name? You aren't dissing me?

And it's SKEPTICAL.. which I don't blame anybody for doing that...

Up to now, I have been willing to laugh off a competitor's willingness to put up a website that... 1) is libelous 2) You can't retract any statement when or if corrected 3) You can't offer any positive feedback on that site 4) no remedies for problems would be published 5) is a foreign-based company that can't be sued for libel 6) Whoever is willing to spend money on a website with the sole purpose to harm me is really an evil form of competition. 7) Most people would see it for what it is and realize it is from a very sleazy, underhanded jerk with no guts. I would like to see the creator of that site face me like a man. Don't expect that to ever happen. This is actually international criminal activity and criminals hide in the shadows.

I am considering taking some steps to resolve the website issue. I've been offered some remedies but just like any disagreement, I refuse to lower myself to be underhanded and use despicable methods as my competitor has done.

Oh, btw: When following our cam procedure, we have NO CAM FAILURES and closing in on 6 years of production, some in excess of 250,000 miles.

As for my 'backyard'... I would recommend you not put so much faith in the corporate world. Most of them put up a shiney website that looks so pretty, backed up by some warehouse with a rollup door. I designed and built my own shop, which is 80 ft from my home. It is a copy of my favorite Missouri Mule Barn, which collapsed the year I started the project. It is roughly 2600 sq ft of machining equipment, tooling, engine parts, storage, two engine bays, one with a lift, and it is crammed with VW stuff. I need more room. I have CNC machinery and I am looking for more, do all the cylinder head work with my own equipment. Unlike most of my competition, I engineer my own designs, hire the best in the industry for my outside work (like my cam grinder) and have made a name for myself through hard work and perseverance. To date, in my 'shade tree operation', I have produced close to 5,000 TDI cylinder heads, everything from the lowly 1.5 IDI to the current common rail, which we are making strides for design and engineering upgrades. That is just the cylinder head work. We provide virtually every service on every part of the engine, from complete overhauls to timing belt kits.

In our design for the PD motors, we have designed and build in-house our cam bearing mods. We diagnosed the cam bearing issue correctly, created a own tooling to correct the cam alignment problem with the PD's. We continue to upgrade and improve our designs. As time allows, we have many projects on the drawing boards and little time to spend on the R & D to get them done. As you might notice by the time stamp, this is how I find time to answer smarmy issues like this.

As for cam depth of hardness, there a variety of alternate cams that simply don't work. IT ISN'T ALL ABOUT THE HARDNESS OF THE CAM!! As a matter of fact, if hardness is the only thing you need to worry about, WHY NOT NITRIDE THE WHOLE CAM?? We have one competitor who thinks you harden the cam ALL THE WAY THROUGH, then cut it to size. Sheesh...

Misinformation sells. We understand that. As that stupid site you referred to says, "He's an INSURANCE AGENT. Like all of a sudden that turned my brain to mush.. What has that got to do with ANYTHING?? Actually, I think in order to survive as I did for over 30 years in the insurance business AND DO IT MORALLY, you have to be on your toes and SMART. That doesn't mean I can't do anything else!

I've been working on VW's since I was 12 1/2 yrs old. I love 'em. I am passionate about what I do. You would be so lucky to have a job you love.

Before you do anything else, do that which you have a passion for doing...
Amore... "for the love of it."

That is who I am... Franko6

'Nuff said...

 

[Franko6]

btw: Zambee500, vwzips and truman, thank you for your support. I appreciate your business and coming to my defense.

For those of you who are farther north, there is not as much of an issue with premature cam wear. It is an issue of ambient heat that exacerbates the problem. If you are South of the Mason-Dixon line, cam wear is markedly increased. That is not to say cam wear cannot be improved.

I must ask, if a cam is worn out when .006" is off the lobe, what difference does it make if there is an extra .010" hardness when it is already hardened to .050"? I think that is salesmanship. It is the profile of the cam that makes the difference in life expectancy and the lifters which by lack of oil get beaten to pieces. And the lifters are the really hard part. Chrome-moly with a nitride cover...

We have seen well-maintained OEM cams that lasted over 400,000 miles, but I would say that is uncommon. The issue with the replacement cams is that they do not seem to last as long as the OEM, for one reason or another.

As for my previous post, I'm told that I am 'unprofessional' and 'childish' when I defend myself. I have trouble believing no harm is meant from a fellow that insults my username, calls me a virtual 'shadetree mechanic' and points to a disgusting lie of a website, then says, "Don't get me wrong he could be a great guy". Same to you, tdic. You could be a great guy, and I will believe you mean no harm when you make some retractions.

If I ever spoke to you, tdic, I do not recall, as I do not often remember people by their usernames. Most will tell you, I am very rarely abbreviated with people; quite the opposite. Perhaps you should try again in a less questionable manner.

Otherwise, poking the keys for fun at someone else's expense is something I find abusive.

 

[vwztips]

Frank, don't expect any retractions or apologies he must have gone back over to Twitter where it's more fun to tear people down to make yourself feel better.

 

[Franko6]

Illegitimi non carborundum

A tiger doesn't lose sleep
Over the opinion of sheep

I do not feel it is appropriate for me to be cajoled into debates over whose cam is best. It is an ignorant argument. For example, we get asked about dynos; how much and how far can you go? You can go far enough to blow the engine to Kingdom Come... That is not our purpose nor our goal with the designs we produce. Our major concern is to responsibly build engines, emphasizing on RELIABILITY and ECONOMY. Is it not obvious that is the intended design of this engine?

If you can show me a dyno that will test for those parameters, then I am all in. Otherwise, our tests are done by time and miles. Within those parameters, we are highly successful. As example, we just were returned an overheated cylinder head we built over 300,000 miles ago. We didn't even replace the exhaust guides, as they were not worn enough to merit the effort. THAT is a properly built cylinder head...blue-printed to close tolerance. We put the same effort into our cam engineering.

So, when your engine blows water out from cylinder head lift, you melt the aluminum off your pistons, bend your rods, warp your cylinder head and block, or any of the other nasty things an over-amped engine will do with gobs of excess hp, you pushed the limits too hard.

We have done enough engine building for a variety of engines to know that working a 2:1- 2.5:1 hp increase is a reasonable limit to maintain an engine without creating a abbreviated engine life. That means a 90 hp motor should not be expected to reliably achieve more than 180 hp without detrimental effect. This should be understood that the block for an ALH is in many respects, identical to the later engines, some pushing up to 170 hp, so the same doubling for those engines does not apply.