0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Turbo Steve

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FYI Only ....
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Race-Proven Technology Oils

If you don't know a whole lot about these new thinner oils beginning to flood the lubricant market, stay tuned because they really are something else to behold with their "Race-Proven Technology" and etc...! And don't let the zero in the number frighten you off, either. It's not like it's Ric's test score or something.


While crunching a few numbers in my dreams, I remembered the statistical facts surrounding a 1999 4-Ball Wear Test which was conducted at a sizzling 302*F. (note - average oil temp our TDI sees is 180*F. +/-), where a popular 0W-30 oil with a TBN over 11+ and using "Race-Proven Technology," outperformed an outstanding 5W-40 oil by 15%, whose viscosity was 60% thicker than that of the thinner more efficient oil with a better basestock.

The two excellent-performing oils tested at a sizzling hot 302*F. were: 1) AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30, and 2) Mobil's excellent Delvac 1 5W-40 . In the end, the quality of the product is always what counts and not necessarily the viscosity of the oil! Right?

Many thinner oils worth their salt are using "Race-Proven Technology," which easily helps them pass tougher European Standards and those of the Japanize, without the drag loss in RPM's that high viscosity oils have, nor the increase in fuel consumption from thicker oils. These tougher than ever industry standards make the API's patsy-cake play-doe tests look like silly puddy in the hands of a skilled potter.

Furthermore, "Race-Proven Technology" adds more expensive poly-ester and PAO to the oil's basestock and makes a big difference in the end result of how an oil performs when compared to a lesser-quality basestock which is more viscous with a lot of drag.

When it comes to an oil's ability to perform, quality is better than quantity (viscosity) - even though both have a part to perform.

For example, many of you may remember the straight 50 wt., 40 wt., 30 wt., 20 wt., and 10 wt. oils of yesteryear, which were replaced by a 20W-50, then 20W-40, which was replaced by a 15W-40, then 10W-40, then 10W-30, 5W-30, and now 0W-30, 5W-20 is a required Ford spec, and 0W-20 is almost here to stay too.

As the "Race-Proven Technology" pattern continues, with a super high-quality 0W-30 or 5W-30 replaces the thicker oils of the past, this "Race-Proven Technology" will give these professional race car drivers the edge or advantage they need with high temperature protection, shear stability, in a fuel efficient formula with excellent low temperature protection.

Super high-quality thinner oils allow the RPM's of their racing engines to freely rev up and down more easily with less friction or drag on all moving parts, creating more power on less fuel, which is another term for "Race-Proven Technology."

Race-Proven Technology = more power on less fuel, with better engine protection.


In it's very essence, an Xw-30 synthetic oil allows an engine to optimize efficiency and power without the sacrifice in wear protection that comes with other fuel-efficient, low-viscosity oils.

Many Indy 500 Teams use this same AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 "Race-Proven Technology" oil to qualify for, and again to run on Race Day, and have no oil related problems with their engines spinning 13,000 RPM's all day long.

(I wonder how high their turbo's are spinning and why they prefer a thinner oil like Garrett says to protect their turbo's bearings?)

If Indianapolis 500 Teams want outstanding protection from AMSOIL's Series 2000 0W-30 oil that won't be sluggish and slow them down, then it should be OK for TDI'ers to give strong consideration to using this same exact Race-Proven oil in our little high performance diesel engine that could - and - would, if an efficient oil was added to take full advantage of the TDI's capabilities.

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 25, 2000).]
 

Turbo Steve

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In addition, if a super high-quality 0W-30 oil is good enough for Garrett and Honeywell who make our VNT-15 turbo, and the Indy Folks who eat and breath this stuff, then it's certainly good enough for Ol' Silver and Turbo Steve!

I recommend you consider the following 0W-30, 5W-30, or 10W-30 oils for our TDI's in order of quality. (Note - These AMSOIL's products meet VW's 505+ spec and have very robust additive packages with TBN's over 11+ that can easily go 10K + drain intervals):

AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30

AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30

AMSOIL 5W-30

AMSOIL 10W-30

Petro-Canada Duron XL 0W-30

Chrevron Delo 400 Arctic Blend 0W-30

Mobil 1 5W-30

Mobil 1 10W-30


Mobil 1 0W-30


TDI Oil Sources

Note - This "Race-Proven Technology" is used in both AMSOIL's Series 3000 5W-30 and Series 2000's 0W-30 basestocks, with the primary difference being in the additive package.

Either oil is probably *overkill* for our TDI engine and will possibly pay for the extra cost with efficiency at the fuel pump (compared to a 5W-40).

For the dollar, Petro-Canada Duron XL 0W-30 with PAO appears to be the best value out there, given the excellent oil analysis results which GeWilli has reported.

I might add that Group III ultra-refined dino-based oils (which perform near enough to synthetics that they are referred to as "synthetic products") with PAO added to the basestock appears to be the wave of the future for now. When using the hydrocracked process like Petro-Canada does, it gives them a big advantage or headstart over their slower competition.

Chevron's Delo 400 Arctic Blend 0W-30 with PAO is also very similar in composition and price to the PC 0W-30.

Castrol Syntec uses similar technology, but has elected to not add any synthetic based chemicals like PAO to their blend - sadley keeping the price of their oil the same. See also Castrol Syntec 101

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 25, 2000).]
 

Turbo Steve

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The CAUTION Flag is now out!


Just because I "suggest" you "consider" something, doesn't mean that the oil you are using is not suited for your TDI. It probably is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to use it.

However, lighter-weight super high-quality synthetic oils are the IDEAL product to take a long hard look at, the next time you change your oil.

Please understand that I am not cutting down the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 / Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 / Chevron Delo 400 5W-40 / Redline or AMSOIL 15W-40 in your ride. Rather, I am simply ADDING to the good qualities that your oils may already possess and have only gone or two steps farther with them.

No offense towards anyone or any oil intended.

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 25, 2000).]
 

Turbo Steve

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Cold-Flow Property Tests of 9 Popular Diesel Oils

* Shell Rotella T 15W-40 to be #9 or dead last with the thickest viscosity @ -4*F.

* Castrol Syntec 5W-40 as #8. See also Castrol Syntec 101

* AMSOIL 15W-40 #7.

* Delvac 1 5W-40 Diesel Oil in the #6 slot.

* AMSOIL 10W-40 in the middle of the pack at #5, with the 3 other judges having it as a tie with Delvac 1 5W-40.

* Series 3000 5W-30 in the #4 hole, with 2 tied with Mobil 1 5W-30.

* Mobil 1 5W-30 as #3.

* Petro-Canada 0W-30 belonged in the #2 spot.

* AMSOIL 0W-30 to be the #1 oil that flowed the best.

In short, I would estimate the flowability differences of these nine oils to be about 300% - 400% between the slowest and fastest. Viscosity or resistence to flow, does make a BIG difference! when starting your cold TDI engine in the morning.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/Forum5/HTML/001705.html
 

Ted_Grozier

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Steve! You are talking to yourself again! No doubt the thinner oils are improving all the time and are dandy for our TDIs. Heck the xW30 meets the VW specs... But just because something is "race proven" doesn't mean it's necessarily good for us - after all most race engines get rebuilt after every 500-mile race! Not my TDI, man.
 

SoTxBill

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its not the base, its the additives!!
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13 passatdsg 10 jetdsg, 09 jetdsg, 2006 jetdsg, 2001Jet, 96passat, 86jet, 81 jet, 78pickup all vw diesel.
as to the 0-30 amsoil vrs the 15-40amsoil,,
it looks to me like the 15-40 won in the fourball wear test(4/thousands less wear, won in the noack volatility test(1.8%less evaporation) and unless its colder than -49f or hotter than +446f, it is a better performing oil. lets see,, less wear, less evaporation under heat,,,less polution due to evap, cleaner engine due to less evaporation, meaning keeps its aditives longer,,and much less expensive..
hmmmm.. better, cheaper,, unless your in the artic, gotta be something wrong with this picture??
 

Driv'n EZ

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Let's see, I have a case of Syntec won at the Fest. A Gallon of Delvac 1 that Mz Sue brought home and two gallons of Amsoil.

My only trouble is that I have more oil than miles to use it right now. Glad to see they're all in the top ten.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
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Good information. Oils have certainly improved over time. I wonder what the Model T had in it from the factory. Hmmm......

------------------
Über-Beetle: UPsoluted 2000 Yellow New Beetle 1.9 TDI 5-speed
1987 Diamond Blue Mercedes-Benz 190D 2.5 Turbo (sold, but considering re-purchase)
 

Turbo Steve

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TexasBill:

You are comparing apples and oranges (two different tests involved) because AMSOIL's 15W-40 4-Ball Wear Test used less-stringent ASTM standards at temps with only 50% of the heat as the 0W-30 was under and the 4-Balls were rotating at only 1,200 RPM's instead of at 1,800 RPM's, as was the case with AMSOIL's Series 2000 0W-30.

If you put the two specs side-by-side, it's much easier to see the difference:

AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 150° C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.373mm (ASTM D-4172)

AMSOIL Diesel & Marine Oil 15W-40 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 75° C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.35mm (ASTM D-4172B)

Furthermore, here's another side-by-side test of two outstanding diesel oils which Forum members use and how well they held up under similar conditions at 302*F.:

AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 150° C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.391mm (ASTM D-4172)

Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 150° C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.431mm (ASTM D-4172)

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 26, 2000).]
 

Turbo Steve

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The CAUTION Flag is out for a reason!

Just because I "suggest" you "consider" something, doesn't mean that the oil you are using is not suited for your TDI. It probably is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to use it.

However, lighter-weight super high-quality synthetic oils are the IDEAL product to take a long hard look at, the next time you change your oil. That's all! Nothing more and nothing less.

Race Proven Technology simly means you're getting a higher quality synthetic oil with more ester / PAO than other good oils on the market. This results in more power on less fuel, with better engine protection than thicker oils.

Please understand that I am not cutting down the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 / Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 / Chevron Delo 400 5W-40 / Redline or AMSOIL 15W-40 in your ride. Rather, I am simply ADDING to the good existing qualities that your oils may already possess and have only gone or two steps farther with the Race Proven Technology out on the market.

No offense indended towards anyone or whatever oil you are using.
 

GeWilli

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Let me add something else in there too.

MPG and HP

if you care about either of these two factors you will choose an oil with the lowest viscosity that will still provide superior protection.

The biggest difference that people are ignoring is that by using a 0W-30 like the Series 2000 or the Petro Canada Duron XL you are gaining in Cold and Warm horsepower and you are gaining in Cold and Warm Miles per gallon.

Are these two factors you want to give up by sticking with an out moded societal requirement for an oil that is too thick?????

A XW-40 oil is too thick for the TDI unless you are blasting around at 120mph all day. And even then the Series 2000 0W-30 will provide superior protection for the engine.

It will also transfer heat better than the 15W-40 Amsoil stuff which will make the parts last longer and reduce thermal induced wear (differential part expansion and gasket failure).

I fail to see why people think that they need a 15W-40 or even a 10W-40 or a 5W-40 synthetic oil for this motor.

Steve is pumping out a great deal of information - and well most all of it should be listened to.

Thin oils are where it is at. All you need to do is try out the Series 2000 0W-30 in the vehicle to realize the advantages.

The mileage might only be in the +2 or 3 MPG and the HP might only be +5 to +10 but hey that is quite significant. Is it really worth sacrificing that gain for nothing???? Seriously - nothing?

So far there have been lots of people out there pooh pooh-ing light weight oils but to this date there has not been one good argument against a superior blended 0W-30 like the Series 2000! Not one good reason.

texasbill's reasoning doesn't even stand up!
 

Turbo Steve

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In summary, a less-viscous super high-quality synthetic basestock can outperform a lesser-quality more-viscous basestock if it adds more expensive poly-ester and PAO to make a difference with this Race-Proven Technology.

Quality is what counts! - not just quantity or how thick an oil is.
 

TooSlick

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Turbo Steve,

Since I am probably responsible for starting this xw-30 vs xw-40 oil debate, I thought I should weigh in here ....

I think if you live in a cold climate and/or do lots of short trip driving, you can definitely benefit from using the thinner, xw-30 oils. Conversely, if you live in a warm climate and/or do lots of high speed driving on the interstate, I don't think the choice of oil viscosity is as critical and you may very well decide that the xw-40 oils will offer better sustained high temp protection - given that we are talking about the same formulation in both cases.

Certainly there have been excellent oil analysis reports posted for the 5w-40 Delvac 1, the 5w-40 Delo 400 synthetic and the Amsoil 15w-40 - particularly from folks living in the mild climates. In the case of TexasBill, for example who lives in south Texas, the Amsoil 15w-40 would work just fine, as would either of the other two oils I mentioned.

The best advice I can give you is to consider the type of driving you do and the climatic conditions you TDI sees most often and choose an oil viscosity based on that criteria. Every oil is a compromise to some degree and you have to decide the best compromise for your vehicle.

I would agree that you will be seeing more 0w-30 and 5w-30 HD diesel oils in the future, but I would not limit TDI choices to just these two viscosity grades ....If I were choosing a Mobil product for example, I would definitely go with Delvac 1 over Mobil 1, simply because the additive package is better suited to the application.

TooSlick www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
 

Turbo Steve

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Ted:

I agree that no one oil is perfect, but a couple of them out are standout, like Delvac 1 and Series 3000.

The AMSOIL 10W-40 and 15W-40 oils are kissin' cousins and have stats like those of Mobil's Delvac 1 and can be easily used in warmer climates, while the 0W-30's and 5W-30's really shine in cold to moderate temps.

As for the 0W-30 viscosity, GeWilli's analysis over the warm summer months is the only one I'm aware of and perhaps there will be more to follow.

Basically, In summary, I just wanted folks to know that a high-quality 0W-30 oil can measure up more than many people think and referencing a few 4-Ball Wear Tests was the method of displaying their capabilities.

I always advise folks to go with the oil they are most comfortable with, rather than have an unhappy customer who hates the product in the crankcase.

Any of the oils below will give good service in a TDI, providing common sense is used with the climate involved:

AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30. Series 2000 10W-40 / 0W-30 / 15W-40

Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40. Drive Clean 5W-30

Petro-Canada Duron XL 0W-30

Chrevron Delo 400 5W-40
 

Turbo Steve

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P.S. I personally feel very comfortable in running AMSOIL's Series 3000 5W-30 or a Series 2000 0W-30 year around in Ol' Silver because of the steps I've taken with the mods to keep the oil cooler and cleaner.

* More COLD air entering engine = lower oil temps

* Bypass system = increased crankcase capacity = thicker oil

Example - In sizzling hot weather, the 5W-30 weight of Series 3000 will be running at a cool enough temp which makes it act similar to a 5W-40 oil.

More info available by clicking on "Modifications" in signature block.

------------------
2000 Jetta GLS 5-speed: Silver & Gray / Luxury & CWP, Monsoon & CD. Engine Modifications
 

SoTxBill

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its not the base, its the additives!!
TDI
13 passatdsg 10 jetdsg, 09 jetdsg, 2006 jetdsg, 2001Jet, 96passat, 86jet, 81 jet, 78pickup all vw diesel.
Turbo Steve,, Thanks for correcting me on the wear-test.. didnt see the dif test crit... how do they compare at same crit.?..but its starting to sound like other than evap, the 0w-x may be the better mousetrap.. I think if you had an oil burner, the higher oil might be better..the evap figure show how much oil will be suck out of the engine btn changes and long change periods make this important also.. but both are very close..
btw... on oil filters,, hastings, baldwin and probably amsoil- filters look to be made in the same plant..
some filters have both a bypass and full-flow built into the same spin-on can.. like the cummin lf3000 and some mb filters... that type of technology would sure make it easier for the average user to extend oil drains .. but with the new cartage/resevoir type kinda prohibits that.
I think all users like extending the drains and especially extending the useful engine life.. the big diesel go for a million miles, would sure like the tdi to go half as much.
 

SoTxBill

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its not the base, its the additives!!
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13 passatdsg 10 jetdsg, 09 jetdsg, 2006 jetdsg, 2001Jet, 96passat, 86jet, 81 jet, 78pickup all vw diesel.
TurboSteve, for those of us in the warmer climates,,, how do the oils rate on the fourball, volitility etc... I dont believe the cold pour point is as important to us as some of the other issues.. might be the same results but could be a diff order..not sure.. thanks in advance.. Bill
 

Turbo Steve

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Bill:

All of AMSOIL's oils with TBN's over 11.0 are outstanding in the 4-Ball Wear Tests at a sizzling 302*F. and are grouped fairly close together in ranking, with Delvac 1 right in the middle of the pack (as a reference).

The 15W-40 you are using in Texas is fine - it's even a tad thinner than Mobil Delvac 1's 5W-40 at startup on a very hot morning and is an outstanding value for the dollar.

AMSOIL's 10W-40 is very good too; SkyPup is using that viscosity as we speak. I like it very much when I tested it 9 months ago.

Series 3000 is the best all-around fuel-efficient formula for a diesel oil that I have seen and I've tested a lot of oils in my TDI to see how they perform.

For hot climates, I personally recommend the following oils in order of preference in quality for the temperature experience:

Series 3000 5W-30 CH-4 Rated
AMSOIL 10W-40 CH-4 Rated
Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 CH-4 Rated
AMSOIL Diesel & Marine Oil 15W-40 CH-4 Rated
Redline Diesel Oil 15W-40 CH-4 Rated
Chevron Delo 400 5W-40
 

RabbitGTI

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Hi Steve, first of all there is no more "Indy". Not since Boy George ruined it with his $hitty little spec racers. But that's another issue. I'm curious, what IRL teams use Amsoil?

Do any CART teams use Amsoil?
 

TooSlick

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Texas Bill,

The relative volatilities of the three Amsoil diesel oils in the NOACK test:

Series 3000, 5w-30: 8.9% weight loss
10w-40: 7.0% " "
15w-40: 6.0% " "

Generally volatility is a function of the weight of the basestock (baseoil), ie the first number in a multigrade designation.

As for the four ball wear test, all the above formulations are fairly comparable. Generally a heavier oil does a bit better in this test, which measures the film strength and effectiveness of the anti-wear additives.

TooSlick
 

8 Banger

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Although new to this BB, during this last chain of messages I saw lots of sometimes interesting and sometimes conflicting information about the ASTM four ball wear test, mileage, and oil analysis. There seems to me to be some missing critical information. Acording to ASTM, 80% of engine wear happens at cold start. The faster the oil circulates at cold start, the better. Any oil! Thinner oils do tie up less hp than thicker oils, and they provide better mileage because of it. Carefull here now!! All true full synthetics, those with 100% PAO or similar base stocks, will meet a -30 (minus thirty) Wx Spec. They all flow down to -30 degrees F. That said, few "full synthetic" oils use 100% synthetic base stocks. All are blends to some degree or another. Here is why. When you put an oil together (blend) before bottling you must thoroughly mix all of the base stock (whatever it is) with the additive package. Eventhough the exact additive package may or may not be proprietary, they are almost all purchased from the large additive companies. Lubrizol, Oronite, Ethyl, Ashland, etc. And there is not just one additive, there are many and they are in every oil and they perform a host of jobs. But guess what?? THEY ALL COME BLENDED WITH MINERAL BASED OIL. Here is their/our little secret! Some of the "full synthetic" oils are only 60% synthetic base stock. You can imagine what the % is for semi synthetics or synthetic "blends". Royal Purple synthetic is closer to what you and I would call a full synthetic that any other synthetic. Now if you want guaranteed 100% pure synthetic oil, we have racing oils from 0W7 to straight 80 engine oils. Plus synthetic gear oils etc., etc. Synthetics pay for themselves in several ways. First, is fuel savings. Next is extended drain intervals (material,labor, and down time). Brother to that is reduced disposal costs (no small thing to a large company), and finally longer engine life in that order. The fleets that use our diesel oil have carefully considered the order of importance to these savings and you may swap the first few arround, but the last, engine life, should still remain last.
 

Turbo Steve

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8 Banger:

Are you a Royal Purple rep, and if so, what diesel oil would you recommend for our high-performance TDI engine?
 

msparks

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Location
Virginia Beach formerly from(El Paso)
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If you would check his profile you would see his website:
http://www.reverup.com/

Looks like Royale Purple along with a few others things.

What is Reverup??? is an inorganic compound composed of
ions of phosphorus and molybdenum in a glycol base.
The deposition of these ions on metal surfaces in
internal combustion engines is an entirely new concept
in lubrication. The principle established in METAL ION
DEPOSITIONS by pioneers the way to an
entirely new method for combating friction.
is a very different and new principle when
compared with all available oil additives. The NEWLY
PATENTED technology used in activity
causes the molybdenum ions to form a COVALENT
BOND with steel and electroplate to the metal. A
COVALENT BOND is formed by the sharing of
electrons on the outer shell of each metal and is the
strongest bond known to science.

[This message has been edited by msparks (edited January 01, 2001).]
 

Turbo Steve

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This "REV-ER-UP" stuff must be some kind of Snake Oil to claim a "A 98% Reduction in Friction." Compared to what - 60 grit sand paper?
 

TooSlick

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The last time I checked on Royal Purple, it was a synthetic blend. I agree that most additive packages come with a small amount of petroleum oil as the carrier - what you are looking for is an oil with a 100% synthetic basestock. Mobil and Amsoil (amoung others) clearly indicate this on their labels.

I would also agree that the PAO/Ester based oils have excellent cold temp flow properties,compared to the Group III oils. If you look at the 5w-40 Delo 400 synthetic, it has a pour point of -45F. This is essentially the same as the Amsoil 15w-40 (-47F), and not nearly as good as Delvac 1 and the Series 3000, both of which have pour points of approx -65F.

I would have to argue about 80% of wear occurring on startup - I think it really varies, depending on the type of service. If you do mostly short trip driving in extremely cold weather,then startup wear is a big factor. Conversely, if you do a long highway commute, I'd expect most of your wear occurs while you're driving the car, under more or less steady state conditions.

TooSlick
 

msparks

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Virginia Beach formerly from(El Paso)
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Also note that a good portion of engine wear is caused by dirt!

Hence by-pass filtration and good air filtration is one of the most important keys to long engine life!

Note:
Amsoil does not recommend adding any!!!!! type of aftermarket additve to their oils. I don't know about other manufactures

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TooSlick

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Mike,

As you well know, all fully formulated oils already contain numerous additives in the proportions needed to achieve the best results. As for the Royal Purple oil, Ric Woodruff used it in his TDI several years ago. As I recall he was burning a quart every 2000 miles - this dropped to a quart every 6000 miles with the Amsoil 15w-40. I would certainly guess this oil (Long Rider) is a blend of some sort ....

TooSlick
 
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