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-   -   History Of Diesel In The USA (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=467686)

HBarlow October 3rd, 2016 03:41

History Of Diesel In The USA
 
http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobile...-the-u-s.html/

TDIMeister October 3rd, 2016 05:58

2 cars in the list weren't even sold in the US among other factual errors... I'd hate to write an exam with this "cheatsheet." :D

HBarlow October 3rd, 2016 07:16

Yeah, I find errors with casual reading of the daily messages all the time but it is often helpful as long as I remember it is probably only half right.

It's probably written by modern journalism graduates of diploma mills.

bhtooefr October 3rd, 2016 09:35

Mmm, clickbait listicles.

listerone October 4th, 2016 18:22

They haven't mentioned another milestone...*my* first diesel,the BMW 335d.A small 4 door sedan featuring 425 ft lbs of torque at 1700 RPM.

RalphVa October 6th, 2016 17:13

There were Benz diesels in the US well before the 300SD.

There were several small diesel pickups. One very notable one was from Mitsubishi: a turbo diesel.

Even Volvo joined the diesel roundup by putting 6 cylinder diesel VW engines into their station wagons. Friends of our had 2 of them. Look at the engine, and it was clearly labeled as made by VW.

turbobrick240 October 6th, 2016 17:32

I have one of the VW/Audi powered diesel Volvo 245's. It has a na 2.4L I6 with a whopping 80 hp. They also made a turbo version. Solid car, fairly solid engine, slow as molasses.

atc98002 October 6th, 2016 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalphVa (Post 5153679)
There were Benz diesels in the US well before the 300SD.

There were several small diesel pickups. One very notable one was from Mitsubishi: a turbo diesel.

Even Volvo joined the diesel roundup by putting 6 cylinder diesel VW engines into their station wagons. Friends of our had 2 of them. Look at the engine, and it was clearly labeled as made by VW.

I had one of those Mitsu pickups. Bought it for next to nothing not running, then I discovered how hard it was to get parts for. Took weeks to find a set of piston rings! Put way too much money into it, but it drove ok once I got it running. But I wouldn't go through that again. Give me an old Rabbit with the 1.6 NA engine any time!

sandmansans October 6th, 2016 18:06

They forgot the 190d. Family friend had that car. Slow as a tortoise, but reliable as heck. He had 400k on it with no major issues. Sadly a left turn intersection and a speeding driver ended it's run.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

gmcjetpilot October 8th, 2016 01:12

+1 on the dislike for clickbait.... (why do click baits go so slow? hummmm) Here are the 9 pages and my comments...

First screen - " “Clean Diesel” technology turned out to be a sham" - No not a sham. They cheated, yes, but the car is amazing tech, and clean in every parameter except one.

1 - Mercedes 300D - "The Mercedes diesels (300D of 1970's) of that era are so well-built, that nearly 40 years later, not only are thousands of them still on the roads (seriously, check Craigslist), but they can be converted to run on biodiesel with an afternoon’s worth of work." Yep and the VW TDI is still cleaner. Thought of buying one but low MPG and no fun handling, no thanks. I love diesel but if I want large 335D would be nice.

2 - 1979-1985 Oldsmobile Diesel - Yep a 350 gas engine turned diesel, bad idea. A gas engine bottom end, heads could not handle diesel loads. My friends parents had one when in high school. Engine hand-grenade. They gave it to him. Over the summer we put a junk yard gas engine in.... He drove it for years.

3 - Dodge Ram Cummins Turbo Diesel - Yep diesel trucks are diesel likely last stand for personal vehicles in North America.

4 - 1989 Audi 100 TDI - "the now-infamous “TDI” acronym first appeared on a Volkswagen AG" Whate ever. Yep 1989, 30 mpg was great, 120 hp and 265 ft-lb torque. He fails to mention the near 50 mpg of the last TDI's and 140 hp and almost 300 ft-lb of torque at 1700 rpm.

5 - 1996 Volkswagen Golf TDI - They forget to mention that VW diesels have been in USA since the 1970's. Also Isuzu had a diesel truck, which I'd buy if I could find one, much less one in good condition. They are so simple and easy to convert to veg oil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN8t-dpyko4

6 - 2005 Jeep Liberty - I did not know about this one... is it any good?

7 - 2007 Mercedes-Benz E-Class BlueTec - "Volkswagen and Audi both licensed BlueTec technology from Mercedes, but they opted not to use in on their ’09-’15 2.0 liter TDIs – the cars at the center of their current crisis." Well of course they used DFE blue on some VW TDI models before 2015 and all 2015 TDI's. I assume cost was a reason.

8 - Volkswagen TDI - Recap of all we know.

dweisel October 8th, 2016 02:56

Jeep also had a little known 2.1 Renualt diesel in the 86-87 Cherokee and Comanche pickup. Only about 1500 here in the USA. Coupled with a 5speed manual it averaged 27 city- 32 highway. Owned one for 17 years.

HBarlow October 8th, 2016 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 5154051)
+1 on the dislike for clickbait.... (why do click baits go so slow? hummmm) Here are the 9 pages and my comments...

First screen - " “Clean Diesel” technology turned out to be a sham" - No not a sham. They cheated, yes, but the car is amazing tech, and clean in every parameter except one.

<snip>

6 - 2005 Jeep Liberty - I did not know about this one... is it any good?

<snip>

I know very little about it but believe it was a good product. I think only a small number were produced. I think I would have liked one.

Didn't it use a version of the Fiat turbo diesel that is now offered in Ram1500s and Jeep Grand Cherokees?

bhtooefr October 8th, 2016 05:08

So, I'll take a shot at this... eight American market diesel cars and trucks with the most impact on the market. (That doesn't necessarily mean sales, but rather impact - how much was the market changed by that vehicle and what happened in response to it.)
  1. 1939 GMC AC-Series - As far as I can tell, this is the first truck application of the Detroit Series 71, which... yeah, that was kinda a big deal.
  2. 1977 Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel - Arguably, this was the first really successful affordable diesel here, and from a respected brand. And, it was part of an engine family that led to the first US TDIs, too.
  3. 1977 Mercedes-Benz 240D, 300D - This was the generation that would ultimately see, for 1982, Mercedes-Benz starting to back away from gasoline in the US market. That obviously didn't last, but it was still a thing that happened. Even though it wasn't exactly affordable, it definitely contributed to the mainstreaming of diesel here (partially just through being in the right place, at the right time), and has a very strong reputation that persists to this day.
  4. 1978 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Diesel (and many other GM models) - the first attempt to really, really mainstream diesel in the US market... and, well, we all know the story. It is worth noting that in 1982, the engine was hugely strengthened, but the reputation damage was already done, and dealers still didn't know how to fix them.
  5. 1983 Ford F-Series 6.9 Diesel - This is, I would argue, the engine that kept diesel pickups alive in the US. Sure, GM had already switched to the 6.2, but GM diesel was taking a huge reputation hit. And, the 6.2 at this time was only 135 hp, 240 lb-ft - contrast to the 6.9's 170 hp, 315 lb-ft. And, I'm actually going to leave the Dodge Ram Cummins off in favor of this - if it weren't for this, there wouldn't be a market for Dodge to launch the Cummins into, and this engine family was able to effectively respond to Cummins anyway (in direct injection and turbocharged form, as the 7.3 PowerStroke, although even the 6.9 had more horsepower than the initial Cummins, and the 7.3 IDI had a fair bit more).
  6. 1996 Passat TDI - it didn't directly have much impact on the market, but it literally launched the TDI brand - and with it, relaunched accessible diesels - here, so that's gotta be good for something.
  7. 2001 Freightliner (Mercedes-Benz) Sprinter - Even if it wasn't the best of the European vans at the time, it was clearly the best of what you could get here... if you could afford it. Incredible fuel efficiency compared to the American competition, far better cargo flexibility with the available high roof, and it's heavily influenced the American van market ever since. For 2004, a rebadged version replaced the Ram Van, and with Chrysler separating from Daimler, Fiat ended up bringing the Ducato (a Sprinter competitor) to replace the Sprinter's position in the Dodge/Ram lineup, with an available 3.0 diesel. For 2015, Ford's brought the Transit (a direct Sprinter competitor) here, with an available 3.2 diesel, and it's replaced the Econoline for most workloads. While GM's still stuck with the legacy American van layout, they're putting a small diesel (a 2.8) in for 2017...
  8. 2009 Jetta TDI - and I don't just mean Dieselgate. Like the 1978 Oldsmobile diesels that the CRs will inevitably be compared to - both getting branded with having killed diesel in the US - this was diesel's big mainstream push. Sure, the 1996 Passat brought pricing down to where the mainstream could get it, but the mainstream didn't want to get it. And, its initial success showed several automakers that there was demand for an accessible diesel product, and that it seemed feasible... but now, we all know that it wasn't actually feasible.

As far as the Liberty, it used a VM Motori 2.8 turbodiesel... closely related to the 2.8 "Duramax" used in the Colorado/Canyon, and soon to be used in the Express/Savana. (And, yes, nowadays, VM Motori is owned by Fiat. Just to add to the weirdness, the VM Motori 3.0 V6 used in the Ram 1500 and Jeep Grand Cherokee began as a 2.9 liter for European Cadillacs.) However, it had the problem that it ate transmissions for breakfast.

RalphVa October 8th, 2016 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandmansans (Post 5153700)
They forgot the 190d. Family friend had that car. Slow as a tortoise, but reliable as heck. He had 400k on it with no major issues. Sadly a left turn intersection and a speeding driver ended it's run.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

The president of our NJ Benz club had one of those that he inherited from his father. His had a number of miles on it.

dubStrom October 8th, 2016 18:09

Isuzu, and even Toyota
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RalphVa (Post 5153679)
There were Benz diesels in the US well before the 300SD.

There were several small diesel pickups. One very notable one was from Mitsubishi: a turbo diesel.

Even Volvo joined the diesel roundup by putting 6 cylinder diesel VW engines into their station wagons. Friends of our had 2 of them. Look at the engine, and it was clearly labeled as made by VW.

Isuzu naturally aspirated diesel P'ups ran 300k miles. Wouldn't win the race, but were available in 2WD and VERY capable 4WD models for just a couple of years. I'd have been very happy with one if I have the money back then.

Toyota also introduced the L engine which was available in 2WD and 4WD models. These were first gen and second gen Toyota pickups. Went turbo and those were great, but the naturally aspired models were WAY more dependable in the long run. I owned one 2WD with the L engine. Just like the naturally aspirated Isuzu diesels, wouldn't win the race. But just as dependable, and LONG life engines. I would buy one today if I could.

These were real benchmarks. You could get these engines in sedans too. Awesome dependable. Just excellent, and they did not spew clouds of smoke. Easy 35-45mpg-Nice vehicles.

gmcjetpilot October 9th, 2016 16:28

SAD FACT - and hate to give any credit to Europeans....
The list of diesel cars they have (or had) to choose from
is literally (not literally but you know what I mean)..... A MILE LONG.

I don't have time to list them but anything we have in gas,
there is almost always was an oil burning version.

You can (could) get anything in diesel including a Ford Focus hatch.
so many options in diesel passenger cars/wagons or utility vehicles.

turbobrick240 October 9th, 2016 18:16

An older friend of mine hauls his Porsche 944T to track events with his '85ish Toyota diesel pickup. His other track buddies all tow their cars with much newer big Ford, Chevy, and Dodge diesel trucks. The Toyota always gets him there, just not quite as fast. He has a small import classic car business, and usually has some really cool old Porsches, VW's, Mercs, Fiats, etc. in the showroom. The Toyota is immaculate (like all his stuff), looks like it just rolled off the assembly line.

panda November 17th, 2016 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandmansans (Post 5153700)
They forgot the 190d. Family friend had that car. Slow as a tortoise, but reliable as heck. He had 400k on it with no major issues. Sadly a left turn intersection and a speeding driver ended it's run.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

I owned a well used 1964 190D for a number of years. I took it to grad school with me and was able to get it running most days in Wisconsin when the temperature often never rose to 0 degrees F. They were great cars, I always suspected about 400K miles but the odometer only went to 100K and was mostly broken all the time I owed the car.

piotrsko November 21st, 2016 07:33

you are forgetting the 1980 series of Ford ranger with a perkins 4 cyl,

and the ubiquitous vw pickup with I believe was a 1.6 I think around 1975

GWbiker November 21st, 2016 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 5179792)
I owned a well used 1964 190D for a number of years. I took it to grad school with me and was able to get it running most days in Wisconsin when the temperature often never rose to 0 degrees F. They were great cars, I always suspected about 400K miles but the odometer only went to 100K and was mostly broken all the time I owed the car.

I owned a MB '63 190Dc. Rattled, smoked, rumbled and slow, but gave me near 50MPG on Diesel and sometimes home heating oil.

It eventually became the victim of the "Tin Worm" (RUST), as North East Pennsylvania snow/ice weather took it's toll.

Ranch November 21st, 2016 10:41

'were the 2005-2006 Liberties any good'. Right out of the box? not-so-much.. but with time and mods.... pretty respectable.
Well, Jeep made a LOT of them, and most were exported. Tons of right hand drives were built.. The Europeans gobbled them up so fast and Jeep eventually stopped sending them gas versions.
The VM motori 2.8 4 cylinder diesel 'alone' is a very good base... but what it had to endure to make it 'compliant' epa wise, caused some issues.
2 overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder, goofy coolant routing, even goofier thermostat housing, cp3 common rail, and couple all this to a lock-up style automatic transmission (NA models only... European could be manual version)
Result; a severely shuddering torque convertor at low engine, mid vehicle speed and the resulting puked transmission. Chrysler's fix: change the 'tune, and lower low end torque... by a ton. I guess the European version had a heftier TC in the first place.. but thought the soccer moms 'here' needed a smoother shifting transmission. uggg. oh, and to fix the engine vibration... too mushy engine mounts were installed. *short service life
These engines are not TB friendly, they need at least as much concern with miles on timing belt as our TDi's.
I have an 06 libby, and with typical mods done, ( green diesel tunes, egr elimination, shudder valve elimination, cat lobotomy, and most important; CCV reroute!) The ol lump-turd... knocks out about 28 combined MPG.
My TC shuddering has returned with the new ecm flash, and am going to install a hemi torque convertor. Man, I wish these were available 'here' with the manual!! Just finding a manual ecm to ship here is next to impossible. So no probable trans swap in the future for me.

sandmansans November 21st, 2016 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWbiker (Post 5182568)
I owned a MB '63 190Dc. Rattled, smoked, rumbled and slow, but gave me near 50MPG on Diesel and sometimes home heating oil.

It eventually became the victim of the "Tin Worm" (RUST), as North East Pennsylvania snow/ice weather took it's toll.

Lol funny hearing those stories. Thr family friends was newer than both of yours but I just always remembered how sLooooowwww that thing was. But incredibly reliable and super mpgs.

On another side note. Those 190 were almost as comically unstable at the tires as the bmws. My friend had a 190 (gasser) and I can't count all of the times that damn car went sideways for no apparent reason haha.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

atc98002 November 21st, 2016 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by piotrsko (Post 5182443)
you are forgetting the 1980 series of Ford ranger with a perkins 4 cyl,

and the ubiquitous vw pickup with I believe was a 1.6 I think around 1975

The VW Pickup was 1981 I believe, which was the first year of the 1.6. My 1980 Rabbit had the 1.5.

Chris B November 23rd, 2016 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by HBarlow (Post 5154063)
I know very little about it but believe it was a good product. I think only a small number were produced. I think I would have liked one.

Didn't it use a version of the Fiat turbo diesel that is now offered in Ram1500s and Jeep Grand Cherokees?

I owned a 2005 Liberty CRD. It was a typical DaimlerChrysler POS! It self-destructed faster than I could fix it. It ate EGR valves every 20K. It ate the intake "FCV" or anti-shudder valve every 40K. Intercooler hoses, U-joints, engine mounts, injector seals (exhaust leaks), and a host of other issues. Part of the problems where due to the FUBAR ECU programming that ran so much EGR trying to meet the NOx limits that the engine was basically choking on it's own sh!t. Once I finally "cheated" the EGR, it ran 100% better and quit blowing a black cloud behind it all the time. The engine was a VM Motori 2.8L 4 banger that is a solid piece until they mucked it up.

That said, it was a very nice vehicle to drive, when it was all together. Tons of torque, close to 30 mpg on the highway, quiet. The seats were hard as a rock, but otherwise it was comfortable. I dumped it just before it rolled 100K miles, and I did more work on that thing than I've done to my Jetta in 300K! Good riddance.

Chris

drucifer November 23rd, 2016 10:36

Whether they had impact or not ford ranger 1986, ford temp about the same time and mazda pickup around 1990. I used to see a landscaper with a Mazda and a large trailer in town.

legendman April 28th, 2019 16:46

And one that everyone seems to forget about... Peugeot

LeeM April 29th, 2019 14:49

Had a 1976 diesel Peugeot 504 station wagon with a whopping 60 hp, 0-60 mph time was somewhere around 19 seconds. The most comfortable riding vehicle I have ever owned. The "Tin Worm" devoured it.

legendman April 29th, 2019 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeM (Post 5504088)
Had a 1976 diesel Peugeot 504 station wagon with a whopping 60 hp, 0-60 mph time was somewhere around 19 seconds. The most comfortable riding vehicle I have ever owned. The "Tin Worm" devoured it.


You are 100% correct about comfortable, had a 505 Wagon
By far the most comfortable seats I have ever sat in.

casioqv April 30th, 2019 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 5154051)
mention that VW diesels have been in USA since the 1970's. Also Isuzu had a diesel truck, which I'd buy if I could find one, much less one in good condition. They are so simple and easy to convert to veg oil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN8t-dpyko4


I had an '86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel. It was an incredible offroad vehicle, but dangerously slow on California freeways and up hills- it could not keep up with fully loaded semis up grades, and they had to pass. I once was side by side on flat ground with an early VW Bus (a T1 - only 54hp I think but 900lbs lighter than the Trooper) that had a bunch of huge wood lawn chairs strapped to the roof. I held the throttle to the floor, but the T1 was gone ahead of me over the horizon after a few minutes.

Passengers would always tell me 'this thing really needs a Turbo' and look disappointed when I told them it already had one. I can't imagine what the non-turbo versions in the Isuzu pickup trucks were like.

Pat Dolan May 1st, 2019 03:27

I did not see any mention of the '80s XJ Jeeps with the 2.1 Renault. Also, in that time period, Fiat sent over medium duty diesel trucks - I have a little Iveco cabover that is a fantastic truck.

[486] May 3rd, 2019 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5504609)
I did not see any mention of the '80s XJ Jeeps with the 2.1 Renault. Also, in that time period, Fiat sent over medium duty diesel trucks - I have a little Iveco cabover that is a fantastic truck.

post 11

also rangers came with mitsu/perkins timing belt motors in the early/mid 80s

vwestlife May 7th, 2019 10:40

There were plenty of obscure diesel cars in the U.S. in the 1980s: Isuzu I-Mark, Toyota Camry, Nissan Maxima, Mazda 626, Lincoln Continental, Pontiac T1000, etc... there was even a company that did a few dozen diesel conversions of AMC Eagle Wagons.

nokivasara May 10th, 2019 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendman (Post 5504109)
You are 100% correct about comfortable, had a 505 Wagon
By far the most comfortable seats I have ever sat in.

I've had a 505 too, it was a 130hp gasser, incredibly comfortable. The OEM shocks on these are really well tuned. And the seats are comfy too.

Did you get the 405?
That was my first turbo diesel, a 1993 (or 95?) 405 90hp TD. I remember how impressed I was about its ability to maintain speed going uphill :cool:
I was used to NA diesel MB's and Golf mk1/mk2's.

bhtooefr May 10th, 2019 15:00

405 was the last Peugeot sold in the US, I think we just got 1.9 liter gassers in it.

nokivasara May 11th, 2019 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5507312)
405 was the last Peugeot sold in the US, I think we just got 1.9 liter gassers in it.

That's a shame, the XUD9 TD engine really was a gem. It's the Pug version of the ALH (albeit IDI) :)

Pat Dolan May 12th, 2019 12:33

I had completely forgotten about the BMW powered Fords (post 32). A good friend still has one sitting in his garage, untouched for at least the last 10 years. One of my favourites was the 1977 or 78 Dodge half tons with the 4.0 normally aspirated Mitsu inline 6. It was a turbocharger away from being a really nice truck, but would get mileage than few cars of the day could equal.

woofie2 May 28th, 2019 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5154081)
So, I'll take a shot at this... eight American market diesel cars and trucks with the most impact on the market. (That doesn't necessarily mean sales, but rather impact - how much was the market changed by that vehicle and what happened in response to it.)
  1. 1939 GMC AC-Series - As far as I can tell, this is the first truck application of the Detroit Series 71, which... yeah, that was kinda a big deal.
  2. 1977 Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel - Arguably, this was the first really successful affordable diesel here, and from a respected brand. And, it was part of an engine family that led to the first US TDIs, too.
  3. 1977 Mercedes-Benz 240D, 300D - This was the generation that would ultimately see, for 1982, Mercedes-Benz starting to back away from gasoline in the US market. That obviously didn't last, but it was still a thing that happened. Even though it wasn't exactly affordable, it definitely contributed to the mainstreaming of diesel here (partially just through being in the right place, at the right time), and has a very strong reputation that persists to this day.
  4. 1978 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Diesel (and many other GM models) - the first attempt to really, really mainstream diesel in the US market... and, well, we all know the story. It is worth noting that in 1982, the engine was hugely strengthened, but the reputation damage was already done, and dealers still didn't know how to fix them.
  5. 1983 Ford F-Series 6.9 Diesel - This is, I would argue, the engine that kept diesel pickups alive in the US. Sure, GM had already switched to the 6.2, but GM diesel was taking a huge reputation hit. And, the 6.2 at this time was only 135 hp, 240 lb-ft - contrast to the 6.9's 170 hp, 315 lb-ft. And, I'm actually going to leave the Dodge Ram Cummins off in favor of this - if it weren't for this, there wouldn't be a market for Dodge to launch the Cummins into, and this engine family was able to effectively respond to Cummins anyway (in direct injection and turbocharged form, as the 7.3 PowerStroke, although even the 6.9 had more horsepower than the initial Cummins, and the 7.3 IDI had a fair bit more).
  6. 1996 Passat TDI - it didn't directly have much impact on the market, but it literally launched the TDI brand - and with it, relaunched accessible diesels - here, so that's gotta be good for something.
  7. 2001 Freightliner (Mercedes-Benz) Sprinter - Even if it wasn't the best of the European vans at the time, it was clearly the best of what you could get here... if you could afford it. Incredible fuel efficiency compared to the American competition, far better cargo flexibility with the available high roof, and it's heavily influenced the American van market ever since. For 2004, a rebadged version replaced the Ram Van, and with Chrysler separating from Daimler, Fiat ended up bringing the Ducato (a Sprinter competitor) to replace the Sprinter's position in the Dodge/Ram lineup, with an available 3.0 diesel. For 2015, Ford's brought the Transit (a direct Sprinter competitor) here, with an available 3.2 diesel, and it's replaced the Econoline for most workloads. While GM's still stuck with the legacy American van layout, they're putting a small diesel (a 2.8) in for 2017...
  8. 2009 Jetta TDI - and I don't just mean Dieselgate. Like the 1978 Oldsmobile diesels that the CRs will inevitably be compared to - both getting branded with having killed diesel in the US - this was diesel's big mainstream push. Sure, the 1996 Passat brought pricing down to where the mainstream could get it, but the mainstream didn't want to get it. And, its initial success showed several automakers that there was demand for an accessible diesel product, and that it seemed feasible... but now, we all know that it wasn't actually feasible.

As far as the Liberty, it used a VM Motori 2.8 turbodiesel... closely related to the 2.8 "Duramax" used in the Colorado/Canyon, and soon to be used in the Express/Savana. (And, yes, nowadays, VM Motori is owned by Fiat. Just to add to the weirdness, the VM Motori 3.0 V6 used in the Ram 1500 and Jeep Grand Cherokee began as a 2.9 liter for European Cadillacs.) However, it had the problem that it ate transmissions for breakfast.

Overlooked is the Cummins Dodge from 1989, the completion of Clessie Cummins dream. (having fought to build the motor for the Marmon Wasp that won the first indy 500, and while building power plants for large trucks and generators kept fighting to get a car built on his motor. His 1931 entry in the Indy 500 did not stop for fuel or tires the entire race, finishing 13th:eek:.)

turbobrick240 May 28th, 2019 15:19

I'd say the Navistar/IH 444, aka Ford 7.3 DI should be on the list too. It undoubtedly outsold all of the others, and really brought diesel trucks mainstream in N America.

bhtooefr June 2nd, 2019 18:13

I'm already covering the Navistar diesel family with the 6.9 IDI in that list, but I could see the argument for replacing the Passat with the Ram 6BT...

[486] June 2nd, 2019 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5512926)
I'm already covering the Navistar diesel family with the 6.9 IDI in that list, but I could see the argument for replacing the Passat with the Ram 6BT...

IH 6.9/7.3IDI is totally different than navistar 7.3DI
even the bore spacing is different

turbobrick240 June 2nd, 2019 22:43

Yeah, the '96 Passat tdi is far more related to the common rail tdi than the 7.3 DI is to the 6.9/7.3 IDI. The only thing shared between the two 7.3's is the bore and stroke measurements. The T444E introduced electronically controlled direct injected turbodiesel passenger vehicles to N America, so that's sorta a big deal.

kjclow June 3rd, 2019 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by woofie2 (Post 5511713)
Overlooked is the Cummins Dodge from 1989, the completion of Clessie Cummins dream. (having fought to build the motor for the Marmon Wasp that won the first indy 500, and while building power plants for large trucks and generators kept fighting to get a car built on his motor. His 1931 entry in the Indy 500 did not stop for fuel or tires the entire race, finishing 13th:eek:.)

I think that car is on display at the Indianapolis airport.

kjclow June 3rd, 2019 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5507755)
One of my favourites was the 1977 or 78 Dodge half tons with the 4.0 normally aspirated Mitsu inline 6. It was a turbocharger away from being a really nice truck, but would get mileage than few cars of the day could equal.

I can't really comment on anything prior to 1979, but after that year, all my father-in-law owned for a farm truck was a Dodge Power wagon half ton with the Cummins diesel. If it didn't have the power he needed, there was always a tractor or two.

woofie2 June 3rd, 2019 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5507755)
I had completely forgotten about the BMW powered Fords (post 32). A good friend still has one sitting in his garage, untouched for at least the last 10 years. One of my favourites was the 1977 or 78 Dodge half tons with the 4.0 normally aspirated Mitsu inline 6. It was a turbocharger away from being a really nice truck, but would get mileage than few cars of the day could equal.

As was my Izusu diesel powered Chevy LUV...
other than the fact the transmission could not handle torque. (5th gear bearings failed in 95% of the transmissions)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow (Post 5513040)
I think that car is on display at the Indianapolis airport.

I would not doubt it, but likely a replica, however I have seen them in the Indy Motor speedway Museum. They had all the Cummins powered cars on the track before the Indy 500 this year.

VChristian July 21st, 2019 06:24

In the diesel Rabbit category, I had a 84, 79, 78, 77 and yes a 76. I know they didn't make them in 76, but they did. At least that is how it was titled and registered. The 77 was an improvement, and the fuel filtering was better on the 79. The biggest problem back then was the fuel, especially in winter. By 79 I had my own fuel tank, and lots of my fuel problems went away. The higher sulfur content fuel seemed to wax more, and the slightest amount of water would make a real mess out of a filter.

However, the cars all ran and ran, until they rusted out.

Fuel economy? It was before the days of ODB-II fuel monitors, but I remember a guy at work with a Honda CVCC challenging me to a fuel economy competition. But he wanted an adjustment for the higher BTU content of diesel. I accepted, and the workplace wagers got quite high. Using test data of others I had determined that 40 mph was about the best compromise between power plant and aerodynamics. So on the Saturday of the competition I kept it between 50 and 40, with the speed limit back then being no higher than 55. The fuel people figured I did over 80 mpg.

Nice car, and my first one cost just under $5300.

woofie2 July 22nd, 2019 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by VChristian (Post 5523439)
In the diesel Rabbit category, I had a 84, 79, 78, 77 and yes a 76. I know they didn't make them in 76, but they did. At least that is how it was titled and registered. The 77 was an improvement, and the fuel filtering was better on the 79. The biggest problem back then was the fuel, especially in winter. By 79 I had my own fuel tank, and lots of my fuel problems went away. The higher sulfur content fuel seemed to wax more, and the slightest amount of water would make a real mess out of a filter.

However, the cars all ran and ran, until they rusted out.

Fuel economy? It was before the days of ODB-II fuel monitors, but I remember a guy at work with a Honda CVCC challenging me to a fuel economy competition. But he wanted an adjustment for the higher BTU content of diesel. I accepted, and the workplace wagers got quite high. Using test data of others I had determined that 40 mph was about the best compromise between power plant and aerodynamics. So on the Saturday of the competition I kept it between 50 and 40, with the speed limit back then being no higher than 55. The fuel people figured I did over 80 mpg.

Nice car, and my first one cost just under $5300.

My dad, working at the university had a coworker grad student with a Beetle,
who was bragging on his gas mileage in his beetle, so they started adding 2-3 gallons a week to his tank, then they stopped and started siphoning when gas prices went sky high. My dad had an 79 rabbit with a 5 speed, (we made many trips across Kansas, and dad knew he could count on 50 MPG or better on the highway.)

VChristian July 22nd, 2019 14:58

Yes, the 79 with a 5 speed was a great car back then. However, with a 5 speed, it is not really capable of highway use today where 80+ is common. Aside from screaming at even 70 to 75, the governor topped out at 83 mph in 5th gear.

The 15 Jetta will run at those speeds comfortably, with more power, and the latest leg on a trip, which was about 450 miles, came in at 57.5 mpg. I would have not expected that out of a heavier car, with a bigger engine, and everything else.

woofie2 July 23rd, 2019 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by VChristian (Post 5523783)
Yes, the 79 with a 5 speed was a great car back then. However, with a 5 speed, it is not really capable of highway use today where 80+ is common. Aside from screaming at even 70 to 75, the governor topped out at 83 mph in 5th gear.

The 15 Jetta will run at those speeds comfortably, with more power, and the latest leg on a trip, which was about 450 miles, came in at 57.5 mpg. I would have not expected that out of a heavier car, with a bigger engine, and everything else.

you are correct on the old rabbits and their speeds, however my mom got a ticket for 70 MPH in a 55(to top my uncle's 68 in a 55 in the same car, 82 rabbit 4-speed). They would run. best mod for the old diesels I have seen is to put GTI 5-speed in with the taller 5th gear.
With gearing and software update my '03 Jetta(.681 final, and Rocket chip stage2) I got over 140 and she was still pulling, I let off and coasted the hill at 90 MPH, for my ticket, in a 70MPH speed zone. (and still got 56 MPG going to Colorado, and 55 coming back, 680 miles on 3/4 of a tank of fuel)

atc98002 July 23rd, 2019 12:48

I had an 80 with a 4 speed and factory air. One summer the Washington State Patrol pulled me over claiming I was some extraordinary amount of the limit, which I believe was 55 or 60 on that road. I pointed out what I was driving, saying it was a diesel with the A/C blaring, and I had 3 additional passengers in the car. He decided not to cite me. Probably figured I was telling the truth that the car probably couldn't go that fast unless it was downhill. :p

nokivasara July 26th, 2019 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by VChristian (Post 5523783)
Yes, the 79 with a 5 speed was a great car back then. However, with a 5 speed, it is not really capable of highway use today where 80+ is common. Aside from screaming at even 70 to 75, the governor topped out at 83 mph in 5th gear.

The 15 Jetta will run at those speeds comfortably, with more power, and the latest leg on a trip, which was about 450 miles, came in at 57.5 mpg. I would have not expected that out of a heavier car, with a bigger engine, and everything else.

They weren't that fast but didn't mind running 100+ kph all day long. 20 years ago I had a mk2 Golf 1.6NA 5 speed and did a 870km trip in 10,5 hours. No stops for food or fuel but I did check the oil level once :D

Haven't matched that average speed on that trip until last year with my Skoda. More traffic and wildlife on the roads kill the average speed! Stopping for a burger slows one down too :rolleyes:


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