MK7 Brake Upgrade

adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Looking into upgrading brakes on my MK7 Golf and have my eyes set on GTI brakes that come standard with the performance package. In my searching, it appears that only the caliper carriers need to be acquired in order to fit the standard GTI rotors as they use the same caliper as the Golf. In going one step further, it looks as though the carriers from the PP GTI will also work with the difference only being that the PP uses a 60mm piston vs 57mm. My question is, how big of a difference will it make to use the standard 57mm piston calipers on my Golf on a larger 340mm rotor with larger pad where a 60mm piston is used with the PP? This would be far cheaper than going with other big brake kits available out there!

End result update: went with the 18z kit from Rotorlab and am thoroughly happy I went that direction for the increased performance, looks, and cost versus other BBKs. I went into the install thinking I was going to be taking a bunch of pictures, but the process was too simple:

1) raise vehicle and remove wheels
2) remove 2 - 21mm bolts that hold the carrier to the spindle and pry the caliper away from the rotor and set out of the way
3) remove the 1 - T30 screw holding the rotor, then three more T30 screws holding the dust shields to the spindle
4) clean surface of mounting tabs and rotor hub, then mount new rotor with same T30 screw
5) mount new caliper and snug it down to check clearances of the rotor. I ended up using 2.5mm thick washers to bring the caliper inboard which put the rotor within 1mm of center
6) factory torque is 200Nm (147lb-ft) on the factory bolts, so did the same with these
7) threw in Bosch quietcast pads and the 18z kit's included pad hardware
8) install USP Mk4 R32 stainless lines and make sure all connections are snug. Note, ECS tuning uses a different fitting that is keyed to fit a Mk4, not the different Mk7 key. USP just uses a smaller fitting that appears to be rather universal so to speak.
9) I bled all four brakes just because it was due

The pedal will engage lower than stock due to the added volume of the system, but the braking power available is ridiculous. In normal braking situations, and after driving 400 miles on the brakes this weekend, I barely notice it other than when going for a hard stop. There is still the possibility of upgrading to the GTI master cylinder which has a little more capacity, but for now I'm plenty happy with how things are stopping!
 
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Ol'Rattler

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Jul 3, 2007
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PNA
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2006 BRM Jetta
What makes you think you need to upgrade the brakes? Have they gotten that bad since the A5's? My brakes are fantastic, of course I do something many find silly as in not coasting in neutral downhill and up to stops.

Unless your car has really crappy brakes, tires can have a profound effect on braking. I always go with the 40K better traction tires.
 

adjat84th

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Dec 13, 2008
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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
A buddy of mine puts it in neutral every time he goes to slow down, drives me crazy. I tell him he's killing his fuel economy and his brakes at the same time!
The brakes are fantastic on the MK7 Golf, just want a bit more to fill the wheel up and also will be doing a few autocross events in the future, so this won't hurt.

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Ol'Rattler

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2006 BRM Jetta
Doing a bit of racing could be a good reason for upgrading the brakes. My inclination would be to go with some stickier tires first and then upgrade the brakes when the factory brakes/tires are worn out or are not really working out for your racing use.

Something else to consider as well is what size brakes are on the rear of the GTI and will bigger rotors rub on the inside of your factory wheels?

You can blame Drivers Ed for the decline of the manual transmission. I remember how relieved I was as a young whelp that I didn't have to learn the finer points of driving because all the Drivers Ed cars had automatics.

Just part of the dumbing down of America. Yup. Stupid is the new smart. Your pal is a victim of this............
 
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adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Yes, factory wheels on the GTI are 18" and I just switched out my factory 18"s for lighter weight 18"s. Saved five pounds of rotational mass which should be noticeable in the fuel economy. There won't be any fitment issues. My only concern was the use of my stock 57mm pistoned calipers where the GTI w/ PP uses a 60mm piston to push the larger pad onto the larger rotor. I am thinking I'll be ok, but wanted to ask here first before getting just the carriers all around.

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turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I think it should work fine. You'll obviously be getting some of that rotational mass back with the heavier rotors- drilled/slotted ones might not be much heavier.
 

adjat84th

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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Turns out the GTI w/ PP rotors are 5mm (25 vs 30) and 10mm thicker (10 vs 20) front and rear respectively. I think that may not work with the TDI's stock calipers unless there's that much travel in the piston to allow that large of a variance especially in the rear?
 

adjat84th

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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
the master cylinder isn't made for the larger piston calipers on the performance pack.

Best bet is the 312mm brake upgrade with better pads.
Correct, the thought was to use only the carriers with the stock calipers because switching the calipers costs quite a bit more, plus you'd have to swap master cylinders as well. But yes, looking like the standard GTI brakes are the only way to go cheaply.

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Macradiators.com

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Romania
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2.0 CR 360hp
If you must spend money, spend on a proper upgrade not cupra-golf R setup, those are little better than what you have but far away from BBK

Best bang for your $ will be the Z18 caliper upgrade + light 340mm discs ;)
18" wheels of course.

this is my setup, but will upgrade to bigger and lighter discs after the tune


 

adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
^Very nice! Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not in a rush, so this could make the cut.

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adjat84th

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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Correct, been doing quite a bit of researching and I believe my new wheels have a bit more room on them with the design of the spokes, but could just run some spacers if needed.
Wondering if the 18Z or 17Z will not affect pedal feel with the stock master cylinder. That would be my biggest concern. Found a great resource for purchasing from a place called Rotorlab that suggests the 18Z may affect pedal feel, so I'm contacting them to see if they have experience with the MK7s.
 

Macradiators.com

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Romania
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2.0 CR 360hp
For sure it will affect pedal travel, little bit longer but braking is so strong
You can upgrade to 25.4mm master cylinder to have a better pedal feel.
I will do this but its not a priority now.
 

3L3M3NT

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Sturgeon Bay, WI
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04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
Which vehicle are you looking to upgrade?

My best suggestion and like others have mentioned is to put the best tires possible on the car to improve your braking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZltSorr9W0

The next thing to do after upgrading to a better set of tires, is going with aftermarket brake pads that are suited to the driving you'll be doing. If you'll be going to some Auto-X events, then go with a set of pads that made for Auto-X.

I've heard good things about http://www.g-locbrakes.com/
 

xjay1337

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United Kingdom
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Scirocco CR170.
I know you can fit the TTRS caliper to the Mk5, 6 and 7 platform. These are also same as Aston Martin DB9 caliper.
You can use Audi TTS 340mm discs as the 370mm TTRS Discs are poor.

UK supplier AKS Tuning sells an adaptor kit to fit these discs to the TTRS Caliper



You have an excellent pad choice, ranging from cheap OEM type pads for around £40/$70 to race spec pads for £400 or so.
I use Project Mu H16 which are around £380.

The pedal travel is excellent, and well matched, and discs are cheap. The 17zs are crap. 18z is OK but in my opinion as an all around option the TTRS are better, the next step up would be 8 piston from Lamborghini and master cylinder upgrade
 

adjat84th

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Virginia Beach, VA
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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Thanks for all the feedback!
I'm not trying to break the bank with the upgrade, which is why I started looking at the GTI/R brakes. I am only interested in a few events per year while still being civil enough to be daily driven. I have a shopping list of all required parts to upgrade to the GTI/R brakes and it's right at $1200 for everything front and rear. That's rotors, caliper carriers, pads, dust shields, bolts/hardware. That's retaining the stock calipers though.

The 18Z and 17Z looks so similar it's hard to believe there's that big of a difference. But, the price of those kits is far more affordable than most other BBKs, which is a big factor for me. Can't seem to locate any TTRS calipers to compare??
 

xjay1337

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Scirocco CR170.
Plenty of calipers available in the UK if you are prepared to find someone to ship.

I wouldn't really call the GTI brakes an upgrade personally. I found stock 312mm setup on my car was poor even for standard power.

In the UK used TTRS setup goes for around £500 with 370mm discs which are not ideal but will get you buy until you change the carriers for the 340mm discs.

If not then I'd go with the 18z. The difference is in the piston sizes. 17z are poo.
 

Macradiators.com

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Romania
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got a few sets of rs3 calipers ;) some with perfect pads
340mm carriers to be ready soon
z18 is a cheaper option maybe, mine are tweaked to go on 340mm discs, pedal travel is longer, trust me

good pads for z18 from 150$
 

Cuzoe

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May 24, 2017
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Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
If not then I'd go with the 18z. The difference is in the piston sizes. 17z are poo.
I have the Rotorlabs 17z kit on order right now. Has to fit under my Neuspeed RSE05s. But for the record, the 17z has more piston area than the 18z.

17z: 34/36/38
18z: 30/34/38

The 18z does allow slightly larger rotors which likely makes up for the smaller piston area... assuming similar pad area. FWIW, both were are speced to stop the same size vehicle.

Don't know if adjat84th (or anyone else) is still considering brake upgrades but the Rotorlab kits will bolt right up if you have steel steering knuckles. My NAR Golf does, but can't speak for ROW vehicles or any GSWs. Choice of 17z/18z should be dictated by the wheels you're running.

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Cuzoe

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MK7 Golf S
I appreciate the relationship between master cylinder and piston size. None of the research that myself or a member on a different forum has done suggests that the master cylinder is different between any of the NAR Golfs 1.8T/TDI/GTI/R. Without reposting too much of what has been found the part number for the R/GTI with PP ends in "B" and the manufacturer specs it at .01mm bigger than the non "B" part number.

Let's assume that research is wrong though, and master cylinder is different like it was between MK6 GTIs and Rs. The MK7 TDI still has the small master cylinder. If you are upgrading to the 18z or 17z you're just choosing between how awful your pedal will feel until you upgrade the master cylinder.

I don't suspect the pedal feel is going to be significantly different between the two brakes in our application. Which is why I said choose either of these based on the wheels are going to run because you need an upgraded master cylinder anyway.

And if the research is right I'll have a few more dollars in my pocket when my 17z kit gets installed. FWIW I ordered that kit and immediately looked to source the upgraded master cylinder, but then when I found the manufacturer (TRW) specs they weren't different so I held off.

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20IndigoBlue02

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2002 Golf TDI-- deceased
the Golf Bore size is 23mm with a pushrod length of 1.64", front caliper piston is 54mm

The GTI Bore size is 25mm with a pushrod length of 2.05" (both 312mm and 340mm brakes), front caliper piston is 57mm (312mm) and 60mm (340mm)

For reference, a TT-RS is 25.4mm with pushrod length of 1.75" (that's with the Brembo 4-piston calipers with 57mm pistons x4)
 

Cuzoe

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MK7 Golf S
Would you happen to have a source that states the difference in size and push rod length? I'm asking because I'd like to share it in some other threads where myself and another member were discussing it. I will credit you for the find.

This is what we found

Golf Master Cylinder:
VW pn 8V1611021A
Vendor (TRW) pn PMK685
23.8mm piston (no push rod length info)

GTI/R Master Cylinder:
VW on 8V1611021B
Vendor (TRW) on PML480
23.81mm piston (no push rod length info)

In the discussion over there we considered that the pushrod might be a different lengths because that could make up for having similar piston sizes. Are the pedal assemblies (or brake pedal linkages) also different to accommodate this? We suspected this was not likely but stranger things are true.

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adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
I have the Rotorlabs 17z kit on order right now. Has to fit under my Neuspeed RSE05s. But for the record, the 17z has more piston area than the 18z.

17z: 34/36/38
18z: 30/34/38

The 18z does allow slightly larger rotors which likely makes up for the smaller piston area... assuming similar pad area. FWIW, both were are speced to stop the same size vehicle.

Don't know if adjat84th (or anyone else) is still considering brake upgrades but the Rotorlab kits will bolt right up if you have steel steering knuckles. My NAR Golf does, but can't speak for ROW vehicles or any GSWs. Choice of 17z/18z should be dictated by the wheels you're running.

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I just got off the phone with Rotorlab and he mentioned the steel knuckles being the only known MK7 knuckle to have these kits bolt on. The GTI/R use aluminum knuckles with offset mounting ears that have to be ground down to work...not ideal but doable. So, guess I'm glad the TDI has cheaper knuckles!

Would love to hear more regarding the master cylinder difference in pushrod length, at this point I'm thinking that can be swapped out afterwards if pedal feel is terrible. The MC is only $155 at my dealer, so not a big hit to the wallet.

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adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Cuzoe, did you measure the offset from the mounting tab to hub face to be sure of fitment?? If so, what did you measure?

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Cuzoe

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MK7 Golf S
This will be a short response for now, I'll edit it add more when I get off my phone and onto a computer. I have not measured my Knuckles but there is member with a Golf R on the golfmk7 forums that bought steel knuckles to replace the aluminum ones that came on his car in order to run the kit from rotorlabs.

I'm not opposed to switching out the master cylinder, especially considering that I will have to bleed the brakes anyway. But I'm hoping 20IndigoBlue02 will give us some more info. I don't know what a different pushrod length means for the pedal assembly. In my mind something would have to be different.

It also makes sense that the master cylinder size and/or pushrod length should be different between all these brakes setup I just haven't been able to find that in the part breakdowns.

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adjat84th

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'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Did this member on golfmk7 forums get MK7 steel knuckles? There are quite a few folks that have simply replaced MK7 knuckles with MK5/6 knuckles (cheap find) just to use these brakes. I should have time starting tomorrow to take the wheel off and check the offset to hopefully get my set started.

Curious about the pedal assembly now with potentially using the different MC.
 

Cuzoe

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Location
Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
User MNG in the other forum did use MK6 knuckles on his MK7 R, I misread that. Was probably too excited about ordering brakes, haha. If you get a chance to check the offset that would be awesome. I suppose if I have to buy spindles I'm still under the price the StopTech ST40 kit, and well under the Brembo GT kit.

Sunday is my homework day but when I finish I plan to look deeper into the pedal assemblies. Quick check on volkswagen.7zap.com shows the same pedal bracket assembly for Golfs and Rs, along with the same pedal. Previously I found the brake booster to be the same part number as well.
 
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