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-   -   German court considers first diesel driving ban on an autobahn (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=494189)

VeeDubTDI November 15th, 2018 11:26

German court considers first diesel driving ban on an autobahn
 
A German court is considering the first diesel ban on a German autobahn.

It's in German, but Chrome will translate the article for you.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik.../23636636.html

Quote:

Düsseldorf, Gelsenkirchen The Administrative Court Gelsenkirchen has opened a new chapter on the subject of driving bans: for the first time, a motorway is also affected. The decision concerning the Ruhrgebiet cities of Essen and Gelsenkirchen also applies to diesel engines of pollutant class 5 and petrol engines with Euro 2 standard.

manual_tranny November 15th, 2018 12:02

This is crazy making. My head is going to explode.

atc98002 November 15th, 2018 13:35

It says in your quote that it applies to petrol engines as well, so I'm guessing it's only targeting older cars that met lower emissions standards. Still silly, but it's not a total ban on diesel.

oilhammer November 15th, 2018 13:38

They already have regulation on older cars, gas and diesel, in certain areas under certain time periods. This is not really anything new. This is related to the colored tags the cars have.

Although I do not think it ever applied to anything on the open highways, just city centers, but someone who has or does live there hopefully will chime in on this.

But this is partly why the new Sprinter gets an electric version (not sold here), to be able to go into city centers at any time going forward.

TDIMeister November 16th, 2018 11:19

I'm ok with every internal combustion engine worldwide, Diesel or otherwise, being required to have particulate filters.

Jetta_Pilot November 18th, 2018 11:17

It looks to me as if this was some lower court judge ( Richterin F) making this decision and if so you can be sure that it will taken to the highest court in the land.

Lightflyer1 November 18th, 2018 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDIMeister (Post 5458435)
I'm ok with every internal combustion engine worldwide, Diesel or otherwise, being required to have particulate filters.

Maybe every new car built in the future, but you would have a difficult time getting all the old cars already built, to use a dpf. That would never happen.

Dannyboy November 19th, 2018 06:45

I wouldn't get too worked up about it , there's not many older vehicles on the road now, most diesels will be able to get the Green 4 emissions sticker. Hell my 1.8t corrado didn't have a catalyst but managed to pass( just) emissions without one and was given green sticker. Green is no restrictions on time in the city. Yellow is only allowed at certain time and red generally is not allowed now in most cities.

Their just making it difficult to allow a older pollution emitter on the road. Laws come into effect quick in Europe, most people accept it's for greater good even if they do moan about it initially.

oilhammer November 19th, 2018 06:48

I have also been told that enthusiasts can get a permit for older classic status cars for special events, like car shows and parades and such, which is probably a good thing since that discourages old clunkers from just being used as daily drivers yet allows a way for the classics to remain legal and able to go to these functions.

Dannyboy November 19th, 2018 07:56

Yeah temp plates allow for that but their expensive and a bit of a pain to get sometimes. Suppose they don't want it easy for people to use them as a daily. I think they are exempt city restrictions but have to pass TUV and emissions for their particular year.

Used to have a mk2 GTI valver I used to put on temp plates for shows, got annoying after a while

SilverGhost November 20th, 2018 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5458988)
Maybe every new car built in the future, but you would have a difficult time getting all the old cars already built, to use a dpf. That would never happen.

I don't know about this in EU. I would expect they would pass laws requiring updates to equipment to access low emissions zones (and zones would expand over time). Eventually you would be so restricted on where your car would be legal either you junk it or update with newer emissions devices.

Jason

Dannyboy November 20th, 2018 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGhost (Post 5459373)
I don't know about this in EU. I would expect they would pass laws requiring updates to equipment to access low emissions zones (and zones would expand over time). Eventually you would be so restricted on where your car would be legal either you junk it or update with newer emissions devices.
Jason

You can get kits fitted but some are stupidly expensive and it's cheaper to buy second-hand diesel with it from factory,No real market for the kits. You'd have to really, really want your car for sentimental value to have one. Then you have all your modifications declared to TUV and last time I checked when I left Germany it was about €59 per mod. EGR,DPF,exhaust system, power output Change, emissions certification- and so on.each individual mod so your entering the $1000 Mark easy just to have it certified. Plus the kit $$$$
Not really worth it for all the work required.

In germany if you have a TDI it's usually a yellow or green sticker and red sticker for SDI or IDI

Intech November 27th, 2018 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5458126)
They already have regulation on older cars, gas and diesel, in certain areas under certain time periods. This is not really anything new. This is related to the colored tags the cars have.

Although I do not think it ever applied to anything on the open highways, just city centers, but someone who has or does live there hopefully will chime in on this.

But this is partly why the new Sprinter gets an electric version (not sold here), to be able to go into city centers at any time going forward.

With the turmoil in the political landscape in Germany, in recent elections, the AfD became a party to be reckoned with, taking votes from traditional CDU and CSU parties. In the recent state elections in Bavaria and Hessen, there was fear that the AfD would continue to gain, but in a surprise showing the Greens jumped up in percentage points, and will govern in a coalition with the CDU in Hessen. This 'diesel ban' is nothing more than a bone for the Greens, and will never get any further. The Constitutional court just recently struck down diesel bans that were to go into effect very shortly ib several cities.

nwdiver December 7th, 2018 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intech (Post 5460765)
With the turmoil in the political landscape in Germany, in recent elections, the AfD became a party to be reckoned with, taking votes from traditional CDU and CSU parties. In the recent state elections in Bavaria and Hessen, there was fear that the AfD would continue to gain, but in a surprise showing the Greens jumped up in percentage points, and will govern in a coalition with the CDU in Hessen. This 'diesel ban' is nothing more than a bone for the Greens, and will never get any further. The Constitutional court just recently struck down diesel bans that were to go into effect very shortly ib several cities.

I'm seeing the opposite...

German court bans older diesel cars in parts of Berlin

eddie_1 December 9th, 2018 05:17

It's kind of a complicated situation in Germany. I'll give it a try.

Upto now there were diesel restrictions in effect in big cities including Hannover where I live. One needed the green environment sticker which was granted to Euro 4 and newer which is from kind of mk5 and newer for you guys. This has been the case for some time.

More recently it has been found that NOx values are too high in many of the big cities and these values violate the EU directives on allowable levels.
These higher levels are monitored at particular locations in the cities where there are NOx sensor installations. There is argument if these stations are representative of actual levels in the city due to being only at certain locations. Also the cities themselves may have scored own goals here, because they (often tend to be liberal Greens in cities) tried to restrict traffic flow by converting 2 lane roads to single lane and closing off sections etc. in the hope that people will take the 'bus' but it didn't work out like that in reality, which ended up causing more congestion. In other words there are many ways to skin the cat to reduce NOx levels, i.e. synced traffic lights etc. My city Hannover for example is kind of more setup for cars like a north american city with a good road infrastructure and does not have the higher NOx values problem.

In any case earlier this year the Federal Admin. Court ruled cities can in fact setup their own restrictions about which cars can be prevented from entering the cities. Based on the NOx values from the installations they have started to restrict certain LIMITED sections of roads in major cities. Hamburg started it but it has now spread to Berlin, Essen etc. Basically they are now preventing all cars upto and including Euro 5 diesels. Only Euro 6 diesels are allowed now in these sections. Except for Stuttgart (Greens govt.) from January onwards will have a total ban on cars up to Euro 5 for example. The section of Autobahn mentioned in the article is an exception. This section goes through Essen an area which is one of the most densely populated in the world. There are many other Autobahns in the area, so it could be avoided.

However, this is where there the dilemma starts. Euro 5 cars are only a couple of years old and are now facing bans. So there is a lot of uproar and anger about this. The govt. also wants to avoid the bans because people have bought these new cars and supposedly the govt. represents the people. At the same time the diesel software manipulation scandal ties into this because alot of Euro 5 diesels are technically illegal. In the US VW got fined massive amounts and people got their money back, but that is not the case here. That would never happen in Europe. This is still an ongoing battle. Instead of compensation, VW etc. are trying to use their orginal crime as a means to generate new revenue i.e. sell more cars. They want to give people trade in discounts to buy new Euro 6 cars. There are hardware solutions that several companies have come up with to convert Euro4/5 to 6, but VW is trying its best to avoid having to implement those because that will cut into their revenue. In the mean time they pretended for some time that software updates are all that was needed until they were called out on it and are now trying to sell new cars. If the govt. tries to force them to implement the hardware solutions they try to shout foul and argue it could affect jobs due to loss of revenue. (This is a common trick often used in all areas of industry). Anyway things are still poised on this point where the govt. has to force VW etc. to bite the bullet or find a way to solve the problem. The cities are starting to clamp down so things are coming to a head. The ADAC ( US AAA) is in the mean time investigating the legitimacy of the NOx measurement installations, because in real terms NOx emissions have gone down over time. But the govt. has to move quickly because the cities are going to continue to clamp down on diesels. How far they will go is yet to be seen.

However this is where people see collusion between govt. and big business like most everywhere and have lost faith in the system on a variety of issues. The big center parties CDU/SPD are continously losing support. This ties into the point of why people are voting AfD (a right wing anti-foreigner party) and the greens. It is also somewhat generational. Older people with nostaglia are tending to vote AfD (also due to the refugees that came in) and younger people are voting for the Greens. There are a lot of parallels here to Brexit and other places.

wxman December 9th, 2018 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5463633)
...More recently it has been found that NOx values are too high in many of the big cities and these values violate the EU directives on allowable levels....

Do you have any idea why the EU decided to adopt the WHO "Air Quality Guidelines" as the regulated ambient limit for NO2, but not for any of the other regulated air pollutants? The regulated ambient air quality limit for NO2 is 40 micrograms/m3 in Europe. That is more than twice as restrictive as the NO2 NAAQS in the U.S. (53 ppb which is about 100 micrograms/m3). If the EU had adopted the WHO AQGs for the other regulated pollutants (PM2.5, PM10, O3, BaP, and SO2), NO2 would be the least problematic of all the regulated pollutants according to the latest European Environmental Agency's "Air Quality in Europe - 2018 Report" (EEA Report No 12/2018).

According to Figure 6.1 of that report, none of Europe's NO2 monitors would exceed the U.S. NAAQS for NO2 (looks like a few NO2 monitors in Turkey may exceed the U.S. standard).

The USEPA recently (April 2018) re-evaluated the adequacy of the annual NO2 NAAQS, and kept it at 53 ppb ( https://www.epa.gov/no2-pollution/pr...trogen-dioxide ).

eddie_1 December 9th, 2018 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 5463681)
Do you have any idea why the EU decided to adopt the WHO "Air Quality Guidelines" as the regulated ambient limit for NO2, but not for any of the other regulated air pollutants? The regulated ambient air quality limit for NO2 is 40 micrograms/m3 in Europe. That is more than twice as restrictive as the NO2 NAAQS in the U.S. (53 ppb which is about 100 micrograms/m3). If the EU had adopted the WHO AQGs for the other regulated pollutants (PM2.5, PM10, O3, BaP, and SO2), NO2 would be the least problematic of all the regulated pollutants according to the latest European Environmental Agency's "Air Quality in Europe - 2018 Report" (EEA Report No 12/2018).
According to Figure 6.1 of that report, none of Europe's NO2 monitors would exceed the U.S. NAAQS for NO2 (looks like a few NO2 monitors in Turkey may exceed the U.S. standard).
The USEPA recently (April 2018) re-evaluated the adequacy of the annual NO2 NAAQS, and kept it at 53 ppb ( https://www.epa.gov/no2-pollution/pr...trogen-dioxide ).

Hi, thanks for the question. I am by no means an expert but from what I can gather the background to this is that the NOx annual mean outdoor 40 μg/m3 limit was adopted by the EU Member States in 1999 with the anticipation that by 2010 the limit would be achievable. The thinking back then was that Diesels would not be selling like donuts with time, which proved to be otherwise. Since 2010 there have been alot more reports and studies about the health effects of NOx coming out. This has put more focus on NOx. How serious the issue is nevertheless difficult to discern. You are right about these limits being very tight in comparison to EPA limits. With all this focus on diesel bans, a discussion started about why the limits for the workplace was much looser. These limits are not EU regulated but still recommended 60μg/m3 for office buildings and 950μg/m3!! for industrial workplaces. The focus on NOx is like kind of a 'souce of all evils' approach. The thinking is that if they can hit NOx, it will automatically hit particulates and other emissions. These violations are occuring everywhere in the EU I am pretty sure. Germany tends to be pedantic about these things like many other things and the Greens have more power to implement things. In France I noticed the cars to be smelling much more, because these DPFs etc. clog up after a while and people just remove them and they probably did a 'better' job with their sensor installations. Except Paris is to eliminate all diesels in 2020.

Here is a translated link from the German Federal Environmental Agency explaining the current situation:
https://tinyurl.com/y8l748te

wxman December 9th, 2018 16:22

Thank you for the explanation.

It still seems quite perplexing that the EU would rely on WHO so completely for annual ambient NO2 exposure, but doesn't seem to rely on WHO at all for ambient PM2.5 exposure (and all other regulated pollutants for that matter). The EU annual ambient limit for PM2.5 is 25 μg/m3, while the WHO guideline is 10 μg/m3. The U.S. annual ambient PM2.5 exposure limit is 12 μg/m3.

eddie_1 December 10th, 2018 00:58

I think ultimately this has to do with the way the EU works. There is always this dilemma as to what the EU should be regulating and what member states should be regulating themselves. Espeicially on something like emissions, which is not such a big interaction of states related issue - unlike on trade where there are endless amounts of regulations. The EU is very mindful of not wanting to over-reach. The EPA on the other hand has a free reign for the US. I am not sure of the details but I could imagine back then the issue of diesel pollution came up and a NOx value was something all 28 members could rally around. Everything has to be ratified by all 28 countries, soon to be possibly 27.

This brings up a good point though because there is now a lot of discussion about the TSI direct injection engines producing significant amounts of PM and how come they are getting a free pass. Gasoline PM is discussed to be much finer and potentially even more damaging through its higher level of dispersion. Practically every car on the road in Germany now is either a TDI or a TSI.

IndigoBlueWagon December 10th, 2018 04:13

Thanks for the explanation eddie. Discouraging as it may seem, this appears to be more about politics and money than clean air. Of course things aren't any different here. It'll be interesting to watch this play out, but it probably isn't predictive of anything that may happen here.

oilhammer December 10th, 2018 04:15

Politics and money, for sure. Clean air not so much. This is why our 50 MPG TDIs have been made illegal, but 15 MPG Suburbans are perfectly fine.

I do not feel much of the EU's policies will spill over here. They have enough of their own problems.

eddie_1 December 10th, 2018 10:11

Right, you guys figured out what is going on. As you say, where things will go from here is hard to say. Already alot of damage has been done. Because of all the politics and uncertainty people have already started to panic somewhat. The price of used Euro4 or even Euro5 diesels has tanked. People have started to make use of the 'cash for clunkers' offers and hand in their cars (even high end Audis etc.) in almost pristine condition to be junked. Even the junk yard guys are sad, although it is a windfall for them. Most times parts are then sent off to eastern europe etc. With repurchase folks often then go for a TSI not an Euro6 TDI because they don't now trust the diesel politics. Others (like us) say they will just keep driving them as long as possible and where possible. Possible scenarios:
1) The hardware solution becomes legit. The govt. finds a way to implement/finance the Euro4/5 to Euro 6 conversion. This is the fairest way forward. Interstingly, the leader of the Federal Green party Cem Özdemir supports this. (Only guy in the entire govt. that speaks sense to me. He doesn't want to see the little guy screwed.) Even if we had to pay for it ourselves this would be cheaper and less wasteful than junking nice cars.
2) The industry gets its way and the little guy gets squeezed between industry interests and increasing city bans and has to buy new cars.
3) Premature killing of diesel and icb due to electro-hype. The German car manufacturers have now also started making noises to this effect to become electro by mid 2020s. This one is like a holy grail or illusion thing, where suddenly all on offer in a few years are electric cars and they need to dig up half of Africa to make the batteries. This one is hard to say how it will pan out because you are talking of complete industry supply chain change, infrastructure change (Germany is behind even on charging stations), lot of issues like range not sorted out, could still end up being a dead end. (My view).

Hopefully cool heads will prevail and reasonable solutions can be found on both sides of the atlantic.

Steve-o December 14th, 2018 18:51

@eddie_1, thank you for a very lucid explanation of all the factors involved in this issue. :)

eddie_1 December 16th, 2018 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-o (Post 5465269)
@eddie_1, thank you for a very lucid explanation of all the factors involved in this issue. :)

You're welcome Steve!

In summary I think what happened with VW in the US did have an impact on the destiny of diesels in Europe. For a long time everyone (car manufacturers, govt., emissions testing) in Europe sort of knew that the real world emissions of the cars were not in line with the Euro norms. This inconsistency became second nature as diesel became kind of too big to fail. But it was to some extent a slippery slope. I think this was the background from which the software manipulation occured. It was a mindset of taking the standards with a pinch of salt. At this point the new CEO Winterkorn took over from Piech and his goal was to compete with Hyundai. The focus changed, the new cars cut corners and then the deliberate step to manipualte the software was kind of a natural progression. But the fact that they did this in the US with the well known implications of the law I still find mind boggling. Also after years of struggling to meet standards there.

Well the consequences of what happened caused a real jolt on this side of the atlantic. Perhaps there would have been more focus on diesel anyway with time due to various other emission factors but suddenly it is an issue which is on the table on a daily basis and has become a wind in the sails of electrification.

I thought about it a bit more and I think from the 3) variants of how things will pan out I listed above, the challenge is to say how quickly things will change. But the trend is there and the opposition to diesel is growing and the situation now reminds me a bit of how regulation prevented many diesels from coming to the US. Hopefully in the end there will be a good short term, medium term and long term solution. I would say final decisions do tend to be a bit less political here.

I will end with this pic that was doing the rounds here. :D

Diesel: 'I feel so dirty'
Electric: 'I feel so clean'

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4870/...cdc8c823_z.jpg

nwdiver December 16th, 2018 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5465517)
I will end with this pic that was doing the rounds here. :D

Diesel: 'I feel so dirty'
Electric: 'I feel so clean'

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4870/...cdc8c823_z.jpg

Wind and solar are already growing ~20x faster than new EVs can consume it... just curious as to how big that ratio needs to grow before we can agree this argument is nonsense. ;)

There's also the minor fact that EVs help clean the grid by buffering intermittent wind and solar.

'Yall wasted ~4000GWh of wind in 2017 because it had no where to go! That could have powered ~1M EVs. Germany only has <200k.....

Maybe add ~800k EVs and waste less clean energy :)

turbobrick240 December 16th, 2018 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5465745)
Wind and solar are already growing ~20x faster than new EVs can consume it...

I think this year electricity from renewable sources finally surpassed coal power (lignite and anthracite) in Germany for the first time. And at the current rate of renewable energy growth, coal power could be eliminated entirely in a couple of years. That's progress.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news...ord-level-2018

tikal December 17th, 2018 06:57

Balancing air pollutants and GHG
 
Great recent exchanges on the topic of NO2 vs other local air pollutant (volatile organic compounds come to mind)! Thank you eddie_1 and wxman so much for taking the time and resources to patiently educate us on the fine points of a topic that, to say the least, perplexing and/or unknown to the general population (and even in dedicated forums such as TDIClub): the challenges in balancing air pollutants and GHG in gasoline and diesel vehicles such as CO, CO2, NO2 and VOcs.

The whole discussion remind me of this photo!

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/6682/th...on_squeeze.jpg

Having said that, and in my humble opinion, the transition to EVs in the next decade and beyond will be relatively faster in places like Western Europe, Japan, China and South Korea as compared to North America. In the US, in particular, low fuel cost is the main factor for delaying such transition for private passenger cars.

atc98002 December 17th, 2018 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5465853)
Having said that, and in my humble opinion, the transition to EVs in the next decade and beyond will be relatively faster in places like Western Europe, Japan, China and South Korea as compared to North America. In the US, in particular, low fuel cost is the main factor for delaying such transition for private passenger cars.

I agree, but for slight different reasons. In North America, especially the western half, travel distances can often exceed the abilities of virtually all currently available EVs. Seattle to the nearest major metropolitan area (Portland) is reachable, but that's about it. Vancouver BC would be questionable, because of potentially long delays at the border. Spokane to the east is close to 300 miles. Nothing but a Tesla currently has that range.

And I can't even reach the California border, let alone actually make it to a major city, with any current EV. All of these can be reached with a gas powered car with no more than a 5 minute stop for fuel. And my former Passat TDI would have made it to San Francisco without stopping.

Of course, the argument can be made (and accurately) that the majority of people don't drive those kind of distances with regularity. For me, the longest distance that I might travel in a day is to go to my parents home. It's about 140 miles round trip, so there are EVs that can satisfy that distance. Can't charge at their place, so would need enough range for the round trip.

Yesterday I drove about 130 miles, all just on errands. A bit higher than my typical weekend day, but still common enough. So for me, I need (want) an EV with at least 200 real world mile range, meaning the heat or AC is running at maximum and typical traffic levels. VW might have one coming in the next year or so, so we'll just wait and see. I don't care for the Bolt, the Niro EV might not be large enough, and Tesla is more than I want to pay.

eddie_1 December 17th, 2018 09:17

As I mentioned earlier the infrastructure in Germany is still way behind. The current grid cannot deliver the power. If a reasonable number of people plug in their cars right now the system will collapse. I saw the new electric Porsche wanting to do 300KW charging to halve the time of the Tesla S. I don't see any major moves to start with infra-structure so far. The state I live in Lower Saxony is 1/3 owner of VW so maybe they will start on the path at some point. Also at the moment they are balancing peak demand with coal vs wind. Also they like to sell the idea of being nuclear free and buy nuclear from France and CZ. The reason is due to non emission electricity that does not incur a CO2 penalty.

I am still sceptical about swapping out one source of energy for another with massive industrialization in order to solve all the environmental issues in the context of globalization.

nwdiver December 17th, 2018 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5465894)
As I mentioned earlier the infrastructure in Germany is still way behind. The current grid cannot deliver the power. If a reasonable number of people plug in their cars right now the system will collapse.

There's >40GWh of capacity available off-peak everyday. The average daily round-trip commute is ~34km which would require ~7kWh of energy. So the German grid without any upgrades can easily support >5M EVs. Vastly more with smart charging.

eddie_1 December 18th, 2018 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5465971)
There's >40GWh of capacity available off-peak everyday. The average daily round-trip commute is ~34km which would require ~7kWh of energy. So the German grid without any upgrades can easily support >5M EVs. Vastly more with smart charging.

You have to remember most of the population don't live in Single Family Homes with a nice driveway to park and charge. The population density is in the big cities and like the Ruhr region which is one of the most densely populated in the world. Most people live in multiple family buildings (Mehrfamilienhäuser) or Apartment Bldgs. Cars are parked in communal lots or scattered all over the streets. Right now my colleague would like to buy some VW electro-UP but he wouldn't be able to get a cable to it from where he lives in the Bldg. Charging locations are few and far between.

Nice data plots, thanks, but it would need more specific load flow analysis to the specific population density areas (hot spots) to see if power can be delivered.

nwdiver December 18th, 2018 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5466071)
Charging locations are few and far between.

I doesn't take much. Especially in Europe where standard voltage is 230v. To get the average required energy of 7kWh over an 8 hour window is 875w or <4A. Some areas have been retrofitting street lamps as charging points since they were designed for ~200w sodium lamps but have been converted to 15w LEDs. Every 4 converted lamps now leaves enough spare ampacity to charge an EV.

The grid will be fine; And charging points are super easy to install.

eddie_1 December 18th, 2018 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5466074)
I doesn't take much. Especially in Europe where standard voltage is 230v. To get the average required energy of 7kWh over an 8 hour window is 875w or <4A. Some areas have been retrofitting street lamps as charging points since they were designed for ~200w sodium lamps but have been converted to 15w LEDs. Every 4 converted lamps now leaves enough spare ampacity to charge an EV.
The grid will be fine; And charging points are super easy to install.

An actual case is someone I know who has a Smart EV. It takes about 5 hours to charge to about 12kWh. In fact homes get 3 phase but the Smart can only take single phase. Then they got a special wall unit installed from Mercedes to optimize the single phase. It improved the time maybe an hour. It has a range on paper of about 150Kms but with cold weather and heating maybe 80Kms. Already got stuck a couple of times. It's ok for shopping and going to work. This is Autobahn country. It's a hard sell. Have you seen the density of charging places in Holland vs Germany?

https://www.plugsurfing.com/de/priva...ons-karte.html

oilhammer December 18th, 2018 04:30

The temp extremes are why a local company ditched their EV Focus fleet. If it was above 75, or below 35, their range was effectively cut in half. So they had to have a regular car on stand-by for every EV they had, since the down time to charge them was greater than the time they were actually able to be used. They can "hot seat" the ones with engines, too. That is how they can pile 100k miles on a car in a year. It was a noble idea, but doomed to fail, because it makes no financial sense to have three electric Focuses licensed and insured to do the job that one gasoline fueled version can do.

I was actually shocked just how bad the range tanked at the temp extremes. Curious to see how the new electric Sprinter does (we won't get them here).

turbobrick240 December 18th, 2018 04:34

A whole lot of American iron in the form of Model 3's is about to hit European shores. Those will give Europeans a pretty good idea of what a quality EV can do. They certainly won't take 5 hours to charge 12 kWh.

oilhammer December 18th, 2018 04:49

I don't think there is a whole lot of "American iron" in those things. Never been under a 3, but the S underpinnings are all from somewhere else.... and none of it looked to be iron. :p I saw Canada, Germany, France, Spain, China, Italy, Mexico, and others.

Of course, this isn't really any different than any other "American" brand of car. Or any other brand for that matter.

turbobrick240 December 18th, 2018 05:19

Just a colorful turn of phrase. Unlike the model S, the Model 3 is iron/steel rich. The last time this much American iron was headed for European shores they caught Rommel snoozing. :D

https://electrek.co/2017/12/05/tesla...ject-michigan/

eddie_1 December 18th, 2018 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5466108)
Just a colorful turn of phrase. Unlike the model S, the Model 3 is iron/steel rich. The last time this much American iron was headed for European shores they caught Rommel snoozing. :D
https://electrek.co/2017/12/05/tesla...ject-michigan/

Not sure how much German you can follow, but the national TV did a fairly negative piece on Tesla a few days ago. Maybe they were preparing people for the model 3. :) It was done by Southwest National TV, so probably pro Mercedes and a bit worried, but implied the big 3 in Germany will hit Tesla hard.

Essentially said the Tesla S was a German car.

Highlighted:
- Work practices. A guy who worked until he dropped in the production line and generally working on steroids.
- Californian style innovation. Paradox of brutal business environment and selling ideals of saving the planet.
- Tech, Engineers and Automation is from Germany.
- Low Transparency.
- Micro-management by Musk limiting growth.

Tesla unter Strom. 'Unter Strom' means Under Pressure but Strom is the word for current.
https://www.daserste.de/information/...strom-100.html

nwdiver December 18th, 2018 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5466090)
An actual case is someone I know who has a Smart EV. It takes about 5 hours to charge to about 12kWh. In fact homes get 3 phase but the Smart can only take single phase. Then they got a special wall unit installed from Mercedes to optimize the single phase. It improved the time maybe an hour. It has a range on paper of about 150Kms but with cold weather and heating maybe 80Kms. Already got stuck a couple of times. It's ok for shopping and going to work. This is Autobahn country. It's a hard sell. Have you seen the density of charging places in Holland vs Germany?
https://www.plugsurfing.com/de/priva...ons-karte.html

Pretty.... pretty big viability difference between an EV with <100km range and >400km range. 12kWh in 5 hours is more than sufficient for daily charging you don't need 3 phase charging 230v is fine. For long distance driving there are more than enough fast chargers in Europe.

IndigoBlueWagon December 18th, 2018 07:39

Last summer one of our sales reps from a German supplier was in and we were talking about Tesla. He was totally negative. In his personal case (which is probably unusual) he lives in Belgium and has to travel to his employer in Germany periodically. The trip is well beyond the range of the best Tesla, even in temperate weather. Second, he said that many people are (perhaps justifiably) skeptical of both range and Tesla's ability to sustain high speeds on the autobahn, range notwithstanding. He joked about running at 200 kph for 3 hours. Probably isn't going to happen.

Admittedly this is a guy who sells parts for gasoline and diesel powered cars, so there's got to be some bias there. But he's also a reasonable person and I think may have reflected a lot of European's thinking about Tesla as a performance car. And keep in mind that cars manufactured in the US have never gotten very positive reviews in Europe. Tesla would have to overcome that bias, too.

turbobrick240 December 18th, 2018 08:15

If that salesman is driving at a sustained 125 mph for 3 hours straight, he must be a millionaire (fuel is not cheap in europe) with no concern for the environment. Honestly though, he has every right to feel threatened by the EV invasion.

eddie_1 December 18th, 2018 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5466131)
>400km range.

Then all your previous arguments about trickle charging don't hold.

nwdiver December 18th, 2018 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5466168)
Then all your previous arguments about trickle charging don't hold.

???? How so? The AVERAGE daily use is ~7kWh. If you're traveling and need the extra range you're gonna be using a fast charger.

tikal December 18th, 2018 17:46

No disagreements. There are probably more than one factor in North America leading to making the transition to EVs very slooooooooooooow!

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5465876)
I agree, but for slight different reasons. In North America, especially the western half, travel distances can often exceed the abilities of virtually all currently available EVs. Seattle to the nearest major metropolitan area (Portland) is reachable, but that's about it. Vancouver BC would be questionable, because of potentially long delays at the border. Spokane to the east is close to 300 miles. Nothing but a Tesla currently has that range.
And I can't even reach the California border, let alone actually make it to a major city, with any current EV. All of these can be reached with a gas powered car with no more than a 5 minute stop for fuel. And my former Passat TDI would have made it to San Francisco without stopping.
Of course, the argument can be made (and accurately) that the majority of people don't drive those kind of distances with regularity. For me, the longest distance that I might travel in a day is to go to my parents home. It's about 140 miles round trip, so there are EVs that can satisfy that distance. Can't charge at their place, so would need enough range for the round trip.
Yesterday I drove about 130 miles, all just on errands. A bit higher than my typical weekend day, but still common enough. So for me, I need (want) an EV with at least 200 real world mile range, meaning the heat or AC is running at maximum and typical traffic levels. VW might have one coming in the next year or so, so we'll just wait and see. I don't care for the Bolt, the Niro EV might not be large enough, and Tesla is more than I want to pay.


flee December 18th, 2018 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5466173)
???? How so? The AVERAGE daily use is ~7kWh. If you're traveling and need the extra range you're gonna be using a fast charger.

Fortunately, no one reading (or writing) here will have the slightest impact on the
present or future adoption of the next new normal in transportation. The better and
ultimately cheaper technology will take over in its own time; resistance will be futile.
None of us need to worry any more about mending traces and forking hay.
If you think about it, generating and distributing incrementally more electricity over
time is a lot less complex than the infrastructure we have established to support our
internal combustion dream machines.
The fact that electric vehicles can already dominate certain short races is the icing.

eddie_1 December 19th, 2018 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5466148)
If that salesman is driving at a sustained 125 mph for 3 hours straight, he must be a millionaire (fuel is not cheap in europe) with no concern for the environment. Honestly though, he has every right to feel threatened by the EV invasion.

Almost all sales, marketing and application engineers in Germany, also other countries, drive a company car. They get a free fuel card and spend alot of time on the Autobahn.

In fact most of the better end cars are still bought in fleet sales for companies. Regular folks can't afford them. Then they can put about 50K kms a year on them.

turbobrick240 December 19th, 2018 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie_1 (Post 5466346)
Almost all sales, marketing and application engineers in Germany, also other countries, drive a company car. They get a free fuel card and spend alot of time on the Autobahn.
In fact most of the better end cars are still bought in fleet sales for companies. Regular folks can't afford them. Then they can put about 50K kms a year on them.

It sounds like the guy may have been half joking anyhow. I doubt there are even long enough stretches of unrestricted autobahn to allow for that sort of driving. Even where they are unrestricted, there is the expectation that driver's won't endanger the safety of other motorists. He could have made other superfluous arguments that these new fangled EV's lack the capabilities of a unimog, amphicar, or F16, but it's really just grasping at straws. Though, for a salesperson that spends all day driving around in their car, I can understand why range would be a concern.

showdown 42 December 26th, 2018 08:54

I'd be for making the autobahns bike only all the time,maybe scooters during rush hour. ..Keep everyone close to home in tiptop health, no head on fatal crashes and a financial depression,so everyone has something to complain about. Greens can take credit for economy.

bmw January 13th, 2019 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by showdown 42 (Post 5468075)
I'd be for making the autobahns bike only all the time,maybe scooters during rush hour. ..Keep everyone close to home in tiptop health, no head on fatal crashes and a financial depression,so everyone has something to complain about. Greens can take credit for economy.

I can't imagine riding a bike on snow would be very safe lol

PC Passat February 4th, 2019 18:45

Remember that it was Tesla that converted the first Smart Car to electric for the germans. This led to Mercedes investing in Tesla early on and according to Musk "They saved Tesla from going under very early on".
Tesla's at this point are probably not for the long haul salesmen or twenty-four hour service vehicles, but that is not what our highways are full of. I always thought that a Tdi wagon was the best salesman vehicle around. Just think if they reimbursed you for the miles based on averages!
Tesla just bought a high tech capacitor manufacture. Switching from batteries to capacitors could be a real game changer. I'm not so sure that this not the path VW is taking as well.

turbobrick240 February 5th, 2019 03:11

Teslas acquisition of Maxwell is pretty exciting. Hard to say if they were more interested in the ultracapacitors, dry electrode graphite batteries, or both. I don't think we'll see a switch to capacitors so much as a marriage of capacitors and batteries. Batteries have better overall energy density, and capacitors have better charge/discharge capabilities.

VeeDubTDI February 5th, 2019 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5480948)
Teslas acquisition of Maxwell is pretty exciting. Hard to say if they were more interested in the ultracapacitors, dry electrode graphite batteries, or both. I don't think we'll see a switch to capacitors so much as a marriage of capacitors and batteries. Batteries have better overall energy density, and capacitors have better charge/discharge capabilities.

I think their interest is primarily in the electrode part of Maxwell. Capacitors have limited benefit in an EV, given their relatively low energy density.

cmc February 5th, 2019 11:02

DW documentary: the diesel disaster
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gguwJRrzzF8

wxman February 6th, 2019 07:58

Thank you for that link.

It still doesn't explain why the EU adopted the WHO guidelines as an ambient air quality standard for NO2, but NOT for any of the other criteria pollutants, especially as noted in the video that the WHO guidelines for NO2 are controversial (40 µg/m3).

In fact, if Europe had adopted the WHO AQG for the other criteria pollutants, 48% of Europe's urban population would live in an area that exceeds the WHO AQG for PM10, 68% that exceeds PM2.5, 96% that exceeds ozone, and 37% that exceeds SO2. NO2 would be the least of their worries if the WHO guidelines were used for all criteria pollutants.

wxman February 7th, 2019 08:17

…Germany’s transport minister has urged the European Commission in a letter to review its stringent limits on nitrogen dioxide pollution, saying some doctors are questioning their health merits…

Note that "toxic diesel particles" are not what is actually being contested here, the EU ambient NO2 limit is.

tikal February 7th, 2019 14:39

Thanks wxman for the 'make you think' posts that are very useful and frank.


I presume in Europe the majority of modern light duty diesel vehicles (10-15 years or younger) are going to be replaced in the next decade or so by gasoline and gasoline-hybrids without gas particle filters (GPF).


Is the overall air quality and GHG emissions going to improve with the above scenario?

rotarykid February 7th, 2019 18:39

a lot of relevant facts not discussed in that german political piece linked to...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 5481774)


Also the mentioning of CARB not having a UFpm limit leaves out the volumes of reasons this is irrelevant to the US auto/transport market.
1) we have not had any numbers of auto class diesels sold here since 1983 MY, the last year without the truck loophole.....

2) and this is the real biggie, gasoline-powered vehicles make up ~32-37 % while diesel-powered autos make up ~60 % of what is on the roads in germany. None of the diesel vehicles they are talking about banning in certain cities were ever offered, much less ever sold here by any make. So our market in no way is an analog for where they are referring to in this piece of political fluff against diesels in general....

3) as said and as we all here for the most part know our UFpm issue has not a thing to do with the diesel offerings we never were allowed to buy here over the last three plus decades.....diesels which today in the auto class make up less than 0.03 % of what is on the road new today.....


Gasoline powered vehicles today make up 99.97 % of all new offering in the auto class..!!!....Not a lot of clean air to be gotten from the over regulation of diesel powered vehicles not sold here in any numbers for close to 35 years now!!!! .....

FACT if you are going to watch that movie on german government policies being considered you have to know that If we are ever are going to clean up the air here gasoline engine'd vehicles must be required to have the same after-treatment crap they forced onto the miniscule numbers of light duty auto class diesels that were allowed to exist here since their crucification of all diesels by the politically based dieselgate attack

flee February 8th, 2019 11:28

Catching and punishing deliberate long-term cheating is political now?
The achievable standards that were intentionally circumvented were established over
several administrations - that a politically motivated poster sees politics comes as no
surprise.

tikal February 8th, 2019 21:43

Justice needs to be handed every time to the dishonest.


The above is not incompatible with a holistic and scientifically honest assessment of the environmental impact of alternative energy sources for transportation:


https://greet.es.anl.gov/net

rotarykid February 8th, 2019 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by flee (Post 5482155)
Catching and punishing deliberate long-term cheating is political now?
The achievable standards that were intentionally circumvented were established over
several administrations - that a politically motivated poster sees politics comes as no
surprise.


Singling out diesels for punishment not ever given to the many gasoline powered offerings caught doing similar or worse over the years sure as h3ll does make this entire thing a political exercise in the US at least!!!

turbocharged798 February 9th, 2019 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotarykid (Post 5482329)
Singling out diesels for punishment not ever given to the many gasoline powered offerings caught doing similar or worse over the years sure as h3ll does make this entire thing a political exercise in the US at least!!!

Bingo, there has been a political agenda against diesels in the US and its obvious. The whole trucking industry has basically been destroyed due to ridiculous standards.

A Ford Raptor is legal but my TDI isn't? Something does not add up there.

rotarykid February 9th, 2019 11:18

overregulation of light duty autoclass diesels not sold in~35years,yeah non-political
 
Every last car makes, all of them that sells cars/suv's gasoline-powered in the US has been caught programming specifically to pass the bench test while also programming the car with gearing, mucking with shift points, mucking with fuel limits to make the vehicle more drivable in the real world. They all have been caught exceeding bench limits in real-world driving......

GM Ford & Chrysler have all been caught a few times doing these many different models over the years, were they required to buy back these cars as VWAG has been forced to buy back cars?????.....NO!.....

The worse any of these other manufacturers got for ignoring in law limits on gasoline powered offerings was a slap on the wrist fine, no buy backs, most not even a detune of any sort.....

While diesel's were specifically singled out to make example of to scare all manufacturer into thinking twice or not even trying to meet/pass these stupid not tied to any reality over regulations of vehicle emissions on vehicles not sold here in any numbers since 1983 MY...!!!!!...

If that is not political, maybe I misread the definition of a political action....LOL...

turbobrick240 February 10th, 2019 00:04

A few hundred Germans marched in opposition to the diesel ban in Stuttgart last week. Looks like a real sausage fest. :D

https://www.washingtonpost.com/German diesel bans


https://www.thelocal.de/20190203/yel...diesel-protest

Mongler98 February 10th, 2019 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5482348)
The whole trucking industry has basically been destroyed due to ridiculous standards.

My uncle is a trucker, started with mayflower, now with united.
I talked to him yesterday and brought this up to him. His stance is that its the best thing since sliced bread. His new truck that has MANDATORY upgrades in fuel usage and what not, used 4x less fuel in all operations. He is a firm advocate for train systems. His point to me was that as the trucking industry gets slammed with this diesel gate business, trains will pick up the slack.
In reality, Trucking as ruined its self, the train and local trucking is obvious, but we as consumers must have 2 day prime shipping on all our crap. Remember the days of 6 to 8 weeks for anything you order? Yea.. I do

El Dobro February 10th, 2019 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5482576)
A few hundred Germans marched in opposition to the diesel ban in Stuttgart last week. Looks like a real sausage fest. :D

With sauerkraut? :p

flee February 10th, 2019 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotarykid (Post 5482421)
Every - (blah blah) - LOL...

RK, I do see the corruption and outright dishonesty of the players in the automotive
emissions business - it's a billion dollar game.
What I don't see is how it is political to enforce standards that were shaped over
decades and multiple administrations. Grabbing the low-hanging fruit first may not
seem fair but nothing gets changed overnight. Where I live the quality of air (and life)
has improved steadily over the years since the first emissions controls were installed.
That's despite a tripling of vehicle-miles driven over the same period. I'll take it, thanks.

tikal February 10th, 2019 19:01

I would venture to say that most of of the membership of TDIClub would think that VW got what it deserves (and perhaps for some people a little bit on the lenient side in terms of lack of jail time for higher/highest VW executives).

What probably the same group of folks are saying is that the people/entities that set the pollution standards in the US specifically for gasoline and gasoline-hybrids engines are not being honest and scientific to force the automotive industry to reduce some the following pollutants from gasoline combustion in a manner proportional to their vehicle numbers per capita:

* Particulate matter or PM from the gasoline (yes it is produced from gasoline and it contributes to bad air quality in places like Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, New York and other large metropolitan areas).

* Volatile organic compounds or VOA (same issue from gasoline passenger vehicles in places like Los Angeles, etc.)

* Other ozone contributing pollutants from gasoline

Yes the cost of a gasoline powered passenger vehicles will go up if we want to reduce substantially PM, VOA and other pollutants from gasoline combustion and clean the air of Los Angeles, Sacramento, New York and other metropolitan areas of the US.

The future will be brighter with emission equipment to meaningfully reduce PM, VOA and other pollutants from gasoline powered passenger vehicles.

Lightflyer1 February 11th, 2019 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5482780)
I would venture to say that most of of the membership of TDIClub would think that VW got what it deserves (and perhaps for some people a little bit on the lenient side in terms of lack of jail time for higher/highest VW executives).

I personally think it was all overblown and that they got really screwed over this. Yes they lied and broke some regulations and released some tiny (by comparison) extra pollutants into the air, but in the big scheme of things the issue was tiny. I have seen and read of other lawbreakers committing worse crimes than this getting off way easier. But VW has big money in their pockets and not a US company, so make an example out of them. Even breaking the emissions rules the cars were much cleaner than many, many others out there. It also isn't like they did it all the time. Only under certain circumstances did they over pollute by much. In the big scheme of things much more pollution was caused by scrapping and crushing cars than was generated by the cheat in the first place, in my opinion.

Wasn't there a tuner out there who got caught and prosecuted but they all but reduced the fine to next to nothing due to the company claiming they would be bankrupt. This may be the one:

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23833/e...defeat-devices

I didn't hear all the complaining and whining and gnashing of teeth and money grubbing as in dieselgate. They were probably even worse. Probably a ton of owners even defending them instead of condemning them.

turbobrick240 February 11th, 2019 13:38

Sales of diesels continue to plummet in the EU, despite a small uptick of VW euro6 diesel sales in Germany. In Italy diesel has lost the dominant share it held in that market for years.

https://www.fleeteurope.com/diesel-continues-its-downfall-eu-electricity-reaches-new-highs

tikal February 11th, 2019 18:00

Unfortunately in the US (I am not sure in Europe) the diesels not sold are mostly substituted by much less efficient gasoline vehicles that offer somewhat comparable torque (maybe). Even the most touted Jetta with the 1.4 TSI engine is averaging around 35 MPG (2017 year, 34.86 to be exact by Fuelly.com, almost 18% less than the 2015 TDI model). Plus with the payback money people are most likely buying more gasoline SUVs which have even worse efficiency than sedans!

As long as the prices of fuel are relatively low in the US, the national fleet MPG average for private passengers vehicles is not going to move much in the + direction no matter how much people in this forum or other forums concerned with transportation efficiency would wish so.

atc98002 February 11th, 2019 18:49

I had a rental Jetta in 2017 for about a month, long enough to track the MPG. I was driving in northern VA. My hotel was in Chantilly, and I had to either drive to the Metro station in Vienna or to a facility out in Vint Hill, which was opposite direction of rush hour traffic. Calculated MPG while I had it was about 38 MPG, and that was not all smooth freeway driving. I was very impressed with it. I can't say if it was the 1.4 or 1.8L engine. But coming from my TDI Passat less than a year prior, I could have been satisfied with the engine. Not the car, because it was a typical rental trim. But in an SEL Premium trim I could have lived with it. Almost as torque-y as I remember the Passat, and almost identical MPG that I had been getting here in the Seattle area. Maybe the Passat would have done even better under the same driving conditions. But for a gas engine, I was impressed.

Lightflyer1 February 12th, 2019 06:20

Now add on all the emissions equipment that is required for diesels and see how it does.

flee February 12th, 2019 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5483038)
Unfortunately in the US (I am not sure in Europe) the diesels not sold are mostly substituted by much less efficient gasoline vehicles that offer somewhat comparable torque (maybe). Even the most touted Jetta with the 1.4 TSI engine is averaging around 35 MPG (2017 year, 34.86 to be exact by Fuelly.com, almost 18% less than the 2015 TDI model). Plus with the payback money people are most likely buying more gasoline SUVs which have even worse efficiency than sedans!
As long as the prices of fuel are relatively low in the US, the national fleet MPG average for private passengers vehicles is not going to move much in the + direction no matter how much people in this forum or other forums concerned with transportation efficiency would wish so.

This 18% 'less' MPG reflects the difference in the energy density of diesel vs gas.
The two engines are roughly equivalent in converting carbon bonds to usable energy.
That doesn't make gasoline engines less efficient, rather it illustrates how efficient
they have now become. Coupled with the realistic pricing of the two fuels, gasoline
can now compete on an equal footing with diesel at least in lightweight passenger cars.
Now if the car companies could just make the fuel tanks a bit bigger...

turbocharged798 February 12th, 2019 12:13

Problem is diesel efficiency went down and gas efficiency went up. 10-15 years ago, DI diesels were about 30-50% better in MPG. Huge difference. Now with DI gassers and diesel emission requirements that spread has gone down significantly.

A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.

turbobrick240 February 12th, 2019 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5483330)
Problem is diesel efficiency went down and gas efficiency went up. 10-15 years ago, DI diesels were about 30-50% better in MPG. Huge difference. Now with DI gassers and diesel emission requirements that spread has gone down significantly.

A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.

Less power, more torque- in stock format anyhow. Bottom line is all ICE are horribly inefficient, polluting, and use unsustainable fossil fuels. Thank goodness better options are coming to market.

tikal February 12th, 2019 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by flee (Post 5483245)
This 18% 'less' MPG reflects the difference in the energy density of diesel vs gas.
The two engines are roughly equivalent in converting carbon bonds to usable energy.
That doesn't make gasoline engines less efficient, rather it illustrates how efficient
they have now become. Coupled with the realistic pricing of the two fuels, gasoline
can now compete on an equal footing with diesel at least in lightweight passenger cars.
Now if the car companies could just make the fuel tanks a bit bigger...

Thanks for your input flee. The following comes to mind:

1) See post # 72 regarding the differences in emission equipment required by United States Government law for gasoline passenger vehicles vs. light duty diesel passenger vehicles. Consequently it is not a fair comparison at the moment from this perspective.

2) The efficiency gap between gasoline and diesel passenger vehicles might be narrowing for smaller sedan vehicles that Americans have been abandoning since the 1990s (or even before) in exchange for larger, heavier, less aerodynamic gasoline powered SUVs and trucks with AWD (or similar) as daily drivers. I would not be surprised to see these modern gasoline SUVs/trucks struggling to close the efficiency gap in a noticeable way with respect to their light duty diesel counterparts (I understand not all the models are available in diesel worldwide). And this is without a gas particle filter (GPF) and other emission equipment comparable to the ones in a modern light duty diesel.

3) For those concerned with local air quality please take a look at Argonne National Labs GREET model (https://greet.es.anl.gov/) which stands for The Greenhouse gases, Regulated Emissions, and Energy use in Transportation Mode. As previous graphs posted in TDIClub forums, the GREET model shows that only electrical passenger vehicles getting their electricity from renewable sources and natural gas have a smaller environmental/health costs than modern diesel passenger vehicles (normalized per mile driven).

There might be other factors to consider such flammable (gasoline) vs combustible (diesel) safety differences in the scenario of a collision, etc.

* Gasoline vs Diesel: do your own independent investigation, the GREET model is becoming more user friendly too :-)

* Electrical vehicles (EVs) in the next ten (10 years) and beyond in the United States will gather substantial rapid momentum:
1) If the cost of fossil fuels at the pump goes considerable higher (for whatever reason(s))
2) The Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards (or similar) stay in place or get tighten further
3) The cost of an average EV with ~ 300 mile range (averaged during the ownership of the vehicle) gets closer to a deal-braker for the average American consumer to buy it
4) The charging infrastructure to support EVs expands considerably outside large metropolitan areas
5) Perhaps other factors?

Lightflyer1 February 12th, 2019 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5483330)
A 2000 Jetta gasser got high 20's for MPG. A 2000 Jetta TDI got low 50's with more power. Think about that.

Neither were saddled with the emissions required today. That is where the majority of the loss occurs. At least for diesels. Gas doesn't have to meet the same standards or saddled with the same efficiency sucking equipment. People that have deleted and tuned report much better economy. The cost of diesel vs gas right now is driving some away. Gas here in the mid $1.70 and diesel at mid $2.50. That alone is causing the exodus from diesel to gas unless someone specifically needs a diesel or just wants one badly instead of gas.


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