CA's new auto regulation

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Got Bearings?

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Meh.... not concerned.

The California Air Resources Board on Friday adopted the new rules, which require that one-in-seven of new cars sold in the state in 2025 be an electric or other zero-emission vehicle.
The state can't force people to buy hybrids or EV. I don't see it happening.
 

wxman

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What drives me crazy about these LEV III regulations is that they will mandate PM emissions from cars to a limit of 0.001 g/mi (1 mg/mi) by 2025 (most diesel vehicles available in the U.S. already meet or are close to meeting this limit - this may be more of a challenge for gasoline vehicles, especially GDI).

However, the mandate that 1-in-7 vehicles be EV by that time frame effectively results in well-to-wheel emissions of PM that exceeds the WTW PM emissions of some Tier 1 diesel vehicles, e.g., 2004 Jetta TDI, according to ANL's GREET model!

The regulatory methodology of regulating emissions is completely illogical IMHO.
 

Derrel H Green

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Agreed

Meh.... not concerned.
The state can't force people to buy hybrids or EVs. I don't see it happening.
:)

Just because they pass this B/S doesn't mean it can or will happen. :(

Are they saying that IF one out of seven new cars are not electric,
then no one can buy a new gas car?

:D

Derrel
 

Got Bearings?

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:)
Just because they pass this B/S doesn't mean it can or will happen. :(
Are they saying that IF one out of seven new cars are not electric,
then no one can buy a new gas car?
:D
Derrel
Exactly my point Derrel! Are dealerships going to stop selling gassers because the state didn't sell enough EV's?

SUUUUREEEE THEY ARE! lol

It's nothing more than a law that makes everyone feel good but doesn't mean JACK!

 
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Chris Tobin

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Many CARB mandates get adopted by other states and even federal regulations... I have no idea why, but they are looked at as the EXPERTS in emmisions related matters for automobiles. About a year or so ago they announced that many of their regulations and restrictions/recommendations were based on inacurrate/falseified data and they basically said so what, we're sticking with our recommendations even if the reasoning behind them and the data that backed them up was wrong!!!!

Also, this is not the first time CARB has made this type of outrageous demands on automakers... Many of you may not know, care or remember, but many years ago, late 80s or early 90s if I remeber correctly, CARB made another mandate that by XX year XX% of vehicles sold had to be ZERO emission. The only manufacturer than complied was GM with the Saturn EV1!!! It was created solely to meet this stupid CARB regulation. When CARB realized that the technology at the time was not capable of meeting the requirements without WORSE environmental impact they withdrew the regulation and that is why GM killed the EV1, it was a car without a purpose that they lost money on to meet a stupid rule that no longer existed so they discontinued the car, not some stupid oil or GM conspiracy, just decent finiancial and environmental decisions by GM!!!

ELECTRIC cars ar not good for the environment! The heavy metals required for the batteries are dangerous when mined then they need to be disposed of... The mining is mostly done in 3rd world countries where big companies like Toyota do not have to worry about EPA regulations then the raw matterials are shipped by cargo ship to battery plants then to auto plants then cars are built and shipped over here for the SHEEPLE to purchase thinking they are doing good for the environment because some dumb polition narated a movie full of falacies saying that hybrids are good... This is why an H2 Hummer has a smaller environmental impact footprint than a Toyota Prius...

Finally, where do these morons think the ELECTRICITY comes from?!?!?!?! I laugh at the Nissan Leaf commercial with the gas engines on computers and everything then shows the Leaf implying that its fuel free and environmentally clean! In reallity the comercial is close, Electricity comes from power plants many of which burn fossil fuel to generate electricity and produce more polution than cars do! So every computer or gadget is actually puffing out polution when it is plugged in, just like the Leaf will!!! Also, what happens when someone forgets to plug it in and it dies in the middle of I-10 in SoCal traffic during rush hour? Or in the middle of an intersection or on a train track... These electric only cars are scary and could easily lead to tragic results both environmentally and physically.

TDIs and diesel engines in general are a great way to reduce fossil fuel use! And a diesel hybrid would be the way to go if they can work out an environmentally friendly battery pack!

Rant over, sorry, but it really bugs me when I see people thinking they are saving the world when they are actually doing more damage! Especially here in Tennessee where I live and there really is no stop and go traffic and dumb people buy Prius' and drive at highway speeds all the time, they are not using the electric portion at all, just carrying around extra weight with a weak 4-cylinder gas engine, operating the car in its least effecient manner, they would all be better off in a regular Corola, Camry, Civic, Accord or best of all a VW TDI!!!
 

Drivbiwire

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Gasoline engines will require DPF's to meet the new rules, Diesels should be in the window for passage as currently outfitted.

Funny to think that gasoline has to play some catch up with diesels... but they still miss on efficiency, but CARB isn't about efficiency given their directive to generate higher tax revenues...did I just say that?
 

GoFaster

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Exactly my point Derrel! Are dealerships going to stop selling gassers because the state didn't sell enough EV's?
SUUUUREEEE THEY ARE! lol
It's nothing more than a law that makes everyone feel good but doesn't mean JACK!
What it means is that anyone who wants to buy a Chevy Tahoe, or Camaro, or Cadillac, will have a $10,000 premium tacked on, and will have a "mandatory purchase" of a Tata Nano with a simple electric motor and battery to keep the regulators happy. Doesn't matter how crappy the companion vehicle is, it just has to fulfill the regulations. The Tata will go to the scrap heap immediately and have no resale value, but it will keep the regulators happy that they are doing something.

In all seriousness, there is some flexibility for "plug-in electric" etc in these regulations, and battery tech has come a long way, and recharging infrastructure is likely to come a long way in the next few years. I know that aside from the Chevrolet Volt (which is likely to become a lame duck), there is also a plug-in version of the Prius coming, and the Ford Fusion Energi, and the C-Max Energi, and there is speculation that the new VW Jetta hybrid might bring a plug-in version. There will be some all-electrics; how big the market is remains to be seen but it's non-zero. The hydrogen fuel cell is wishful thinking and will remain so after the true cost of producing, transporting, and storing hydrogen starts becoming apparent.

Just like with E85, it will matter nought to the regulators that only a few people are actually plugging in the plug-in hybrids and that the electricity is coming from mostly coal. Regulation satisfied. The method of generating the electricity is not the auto manufacturer's problem and it is not the vehicle owner's problem. (It is the STATE's problem. Better start approving nuclear plants and wind farms - and if the push-back from the "NIMBY" crowd is anything like it is here, that's a challenge in itself.)
 

Drivbiwire

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I love producing electricity in my back yard that "I" use, if California wants electricity let them make their own!

Build some Nuclear power plants, wind farms, mandate Grid Tie solar systems on all residential houses that apply for building permits (new or old construction) and gradually they will be able to support the power requirements they are going to require.

By the way, my goal is to have a grid tie solar system on our business and home to be completely self sufficient in the next year or two. No batteries required!
 

redneckmba

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I love producing electricity in my back yard that "I" use, if California wants electricity let them make their own!

Build some Nuclear power plants, wind farms, mandate Grid Tie solar systems on all residential houses that apply for building permits (new or old construction) and gradually they will be able to support the power requirements they are going to require.

By the way, my goal is to have a grid tie solar system on our business and home to be completely self sufficient in the next year or two. No batteries required!
Those solar systems will only be economical with lots of tax credits. Nothing needs to be mandatory in a free market. If solar energy was so economical with out tax credits, folks would be asking for it in their houses. Just like they ask for more insulation, economical natural gas, and efficient windows.

My state mandates the availability of grid ties for home solar. In sunny Louisiana, I looked into solar and did not like what I saw. Barely a worthwhile endevor with the tax credits.

Red
 

Drivbiwire

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I looked purely at the cost (no tax credits) to achieve a net 0$ monthly electric bill. I don't rely on credits just a net $0 monthly cost goal.

I live where we have more sun than those in Louisiana, during summer peak we get sun up around 4:30 in the morning and sunset at 10:30 at night again during the summer.

Having already run the number for average sunlight, kWh production requirements I can hit my target with approx. 9 kWh production capability and a grid tie inverter system.

$5K for the inverter
$20K on the panels
$2K misc mounting costs and wiring.

I hit my break even at 15 years giving me another 10 years of warranty to recover the balance and effectively lock in at a fixed electric cost in today's dollars. If electric costs go up...$$$ in the bank for the next 25 years.

I hedge the bet further by adding one panel a year to get a rotational life on the panels installed. This insures I never face a total replacement cost but a simple rotation of panels and paid for by the over-production of electricity to the grid, in other words the excess power I supply pays for my system up keep and servicing.

If I sell, the new owner gets a place with zero electric costs for the remaining life of the panels or inverter. The warrantied life of the panels runs 25 years with an 80% efficiency warranty and if they rotate in new panels on an annual basis they can continue to pay for the upkeep with the continued over-production of power.



Getti
 
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romad

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kjclow

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CARB has never proposed limits with a basis in reality. If it were another state that was proposing something as ridiculous as this sounds today, the people of the state would vote it down. In Ca it seems that everyone takes the CARB proposals as gospel and believes that those things will magically appear. I call on several small paint companies in the area that are being forced to offer 0 VOC paints, which are inferior to what they are replacing.
 

romad

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CARB has never proposed limits with a basis in reality. If it were another state that was proposing something as ridiculous as this sounds today, the people of the state would vote it down. In Ca it seems that everyone takes the CARB proposals as gospel and believes that those things will magically appear. I call on several small paint companies in the area that are being forced to offer 0 VOC paints, which are inferior to what they are replacing.
Not everyone: http://killcarb.org/

Unfortunately, when the people here in the CPR DO vote something down, the courts just overturn it, saying our vote is "unconstitutional" Of course those courts tend to ignore both Amendments 9 & 10 of the U.S. Constitution
 

aja8888

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Yep, next thing they will say they can force everyone to buy is health insurance or be fined --- oh wait ...... that has already happened :rolleyes:. Keep arguing that crazy people are sane. That is always a hoot :D.
Yea, the Massachusetts experiment has been great (for the people): Pay the $200 fine for NOT buying health insurance and then waiting until you need it to sign up. Then once your treatment is over, cancel the insurance. Last I heard (radio interview with the state's CFO), the state was billions in the hole over this "mandatory" program. ;)
 

Abacus

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Having already run the number for average sunlight, kWh production requirements I can hit my target with approx. 9 kWh production capability and a grid tie inverter system.

$5K for the inverter
$20K on the panels
$2K misc mounting costs and wiring.

I hit my break even at 15 years giving me another 10 years of warranty to recover the balance and effectively lock in at a fixed electric cost in today's dollars. If electric costs go up...$$$ in the bank for the next 25 years.

I hedge the bet further by adding one panel a year to get a rotational life on the panels installed. This insures I never face a total replacement cost but a simple rotation of panels and paid for by the over-production of electricity to the grid, in other words the excess power I supply pays for my system up keep and servicing.

If I sell, the new owner gets a place with zero electric costs for the remaining life of the panels or inverter. The warrantied life of the panels runs 25 years with an 80% efficiency warranty and if they rotate in new panels on an annual basis they can continue to pay for the upkeep with the continued over-production of power.
Good luck with that.

Solar companies are FAMOUS for giving you the positives, assuming laboratory conditions, but when you get to real life, it doesn't work as planned.

We have a solar system for our standpipe at work, designed and installed by a licensed solar engineer and Outback Power Systems. Automatic transfer switch, inverters, panels...the whole works. It didn't work as designed in the first year, so they had to come back and figure out why. The inefficiencies were greater in real life than designed on paper, so we had to add two more solar panels and two more batteries to compensate. Now, even in winter we had to buy a portable generator to charge the batteries because if we're without sun for more than 5 days (one May we had 33 straight days with no sun), there is insufficient battery power remaining to use in the system, which has minimum voltage requirements (our inverters require a minimum of 11v and the max put out by the system and stored is 13.6v, so you already see part of the problem, a 2.6v∆).

Our cost payback is 72 years, we were told it was 15 before they started. Too much money invested to turn back at that point.

Neighbors of mine, two green back-to-the-earth doctors, decided to build a new energy efficient house and live off the grid. They have a solar system, built the house for passive solar, have a woodstove, and backup propane generator. Central Maine Power wanted $60K to string power to their remote location. They went 2 years and then had power hooked up because it was not feasible. They don't like to talk about it when asked.

All I'm saying is, like anything, do your own research and talk to people who are actually using the solar systems now and not rely on any salesman to do the work for you.

We also looked into wind power, since we're on the coast and own the top of two mountains. We looked at the average data for wind generation and it looked feasible. Then we installed our own $5K weather stations and found out it was not. Actual conditions vary wildly from average conditions.

I care about what CA does because Maine tends to follow Mass, who follows CA, so we get screwed by association.
 

OnePutt

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Finally, where do these morons think the ELECTRICITY comes from?!?!?!?! I laugh at the Nissan Leaf commercial with the gas engines on computers and everything then shows the Leaf implying that its fuel free and environmentally clean! In reallity the comercial is close, Electricity comes from power plants many of which burn fossil fuel to generate electricity and produce more polution than cars do! So every computer or gadget is actually puffing out polution when it is plugged in, just like the Leaf will!!! Also, what happens when someone forgets to plug it in and it dies in the middle of I-10 in SoCal traffic during rush hour? Or in the middle of an intersection or on a train track... These electric only cars are scary and could easily lead to tragic results both environmentally and physically.
So true...so true...as if energy came from friggin' MAGIC! Let not forget about natural gas used to create energy and the array of environmental issues THAT creates.
 

RNDDUDE

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Also, this is not the first time CARB has made this type of outrageous demands on automakers... Many of you may not know, care or remember, but many years ago, late 80s or early 90s if I remeber correctly, CARB made another mandate that by XX year XX% of vehicles sold had to be ZERO emission. The only manufacturer than complied was GM with the Saturn EV1!!! It was created solely to meet this stupid CARB regulation. When CARB realized that the technology at the time was not capable of meeting the requirements without WORSE environmental impact they withdrew the regulation and that is why GM killed the EV1, it was a car without a purpose that they lost money on to meet a stupid rule that no longer existed so they discontinued the car, not some stupid oil or GM conspiracy, just decent finiancial and environmental decisions by GM!!!
That was my first thought, they tried this already and failed at it.
Reminds me that
"a good definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result."
 

kjclow

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So true...so true...as if energy came from friggin' MAGIC! Let not forget about natural gas used to create energy and the array of environmental issues THAT creates.
According to the commercial I saw this week, coal is still our (North America) number one producer of power.
 

Dodoma

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Whether we like it or not, the strict emission requirement are good for all. I recall ten years ago when I used to stand at the corner of Broadway and 6th street in downtown Los Angeles. I would literally breath air full of raw gas fumes. When I recently visited the same area, there are no such fumes. Moreover, your clothes, specially the shirt collars, do not get dirty. With clean diesels and hybrids, we should see more clean air as well as reduction in lung diseases.
 

Derrel H Green

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Telling It Like It Is

Whether we like it or not, the strict emission requirement are good for all. I recall ten years ago when
I used to stand at the corner of Broadway and 6th street in downtown Los Angeles.
I would literally breath air full of raw gas fumes. When I recently visited the same area, there are no
such fumes. Moreover, your clothes, specially the shirt collars, do not get dirty.
With clean diesels and hybrids, we should see more clean air as well as reduction in lung diseases.
:)

Tears me up, these people who want to do away with all the regulations
that are designed to make the air we breath cleaner and better.

Being born here, I recall how bad the air was in the fifties.
Smog was so thick one summer that you could not see accross Los Angeles International Airport
from Imperial to Century Blvd, a distance of only one mile.
It was like a fog bank only brownish is color, not gray.
You could not take a regular breath because if you did, you had to cough.
That's how thick that smog was. And it was 110 degrees F. for four days straight!
For those who do not know, that area is only one mile from the ocean!
Imagine what it was like in downtown Los Angeles and all points further East.

Thank goodness we have ALL the Regulations we have today to try and control those pollutants.
Just think what it would be like if we did not have those regulations.
No one could live in the greater Los Angeles Basin.

:D

Derrel
 

OnePutt

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According to the commercial I saw this week, coal is still our (North America) number one producer of power.
While I don't care to get into a nonsensical debate on which source of energy American's consume more of, I went to look this up and this graph shows Petroleum, Natural Gas, Coal, Renewables, then Nuclear in descending order of supply sources of energy used in the US.


I found it on Wikipedia...so who knows how accurate it is???

Either way, we can agree that energy (used to charge some electric cars) does NOT come from magic. :p It's likely to come from either burning coal or natural gas...which both have large negative affects on the environment (be it air or water or both).
 

kjclow

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While I don't care to get into a nonsensical debate on which source of energy American's consume more of, I went to look this up and this graph shows Petroleum, Natural Gas, Coal, Renewables, then Nuclear in descending order of supply sources of energy used in the US.


I found it on Wikipedia...so who knows how accurate it is???

Either way, we can agree that energy (used to charge some electric cars) does NOT come from magic. :p It's likely to come from either burning coal or natural gas...which both have large negative affects on the environment (be it air or water or both).
What surprises me on that chart is that coal amounts for only 7% of the energy needed for industrial applications. It shows how much the industrial picture has changes since I was a kid. The steel mills used a lot of coal and also polluted a lot of air, land, and water. My first time in Pittsburgh (1975), the moon rose almost blood red due to all the iron ore in the air. Now the mills are all gone and most of the structural steel production has moved overseas.
 

wxman

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Nothing wrong with regulations per se, just regulations that are promulgated counter to the prevailing science as LEV II did.
 

kjclow

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Some regulations are crippling industries too. The paint industry is almost non-existant in the LA basin because of CARB regulations. They have regulated lower and lower solvent limits until a lot of the small guys were forced to close the doors. CARB now has fees for the amount of solvent you bring into the plant, the amount of solvent you use in the plant, and the amount of solvent that is still in the paint on the shelf. The total amount of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC) that they were able to reduce is roughly equal to about 200 cars. Carb came close to driving the bakeries out of the LA basin and then California as a whole because they wanted them to put catalyitc converters in the exhaust stacks of the ovens to capture and convert ethanol to a harmless gas. You can't raise bread without the yeast producing alcohol.

Yes, some regulations are good and make a difference in the enjoyment of life, but others are just regulations for the sake of having regulations.
 
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