TDI WVO Damage survey

[hkeycoach]

Hi all. Yes I,m a newbie. Great forum.
I am trying to decide if I should run WVO in my 2005 VW Jetta TDI wagon 24k (A4 engine I think). I have read about people hearing about other folks having problems but not many 1st hand accounts. My question is who has seriuosly damaged their TDI using WVO? This would include engine, fuel pump, and injector damage. Did I miss any large parts that could be damaged running WVO?
Not too interested in the run of the mill problems like, car overheating, clogged filter, user error, bad WVO and the like. Just interested in the real costly damage.
Thanks in advance Hkeycoach

 

[Drivbiwire]

Let me make this VERY clear...HELL NO!

Use ONLY #2 Diesel fuel OR Properly processed Biodiesel preferably made from Rapeseed to comply with Bosch and VW specifications. IF you use Biodiesel made from Soy or other oils make sure you purchase it from a reputable dealer that warrants it's quality.

You cannot afford the damage to your engine that the WVO will cause! Your injection units operate at 30,000 psi and REQUIRE low viscosity fuels, simply heating oil will not meet the requirements. Also the issues with comnustion by-products by virtue of not going through the transesterfication process (Biodiesel) will cause high wear rates and damage to your compression rings and injector needles.

WVO was a neat idea for older IDI diesels but has NO place in modern Direct Injection diesels.

DB

 

[hagar]

You will be wise to heed the warning posted by Drivbiwire, he knows his stuff. Find a cheap older diesel VW to experiment on.

 

[naturist]

what they said!

The PD and common rail diesels simply can't handle high viscosity fuel. Pure soy biodiesel is arguably at or beyond the limit, and WVO is flat out over the line. Don't do it!

 

[PeterV]

Its your car. If you have the readily accessable funds to spend on repairs go for it. Bio in a blend might be OK but as everyone here suggests STAY away from WVO. The WVO is a complex issue and you just can not pump it into the tank without a complete process.

"A4 engine I think.." That nails it do not even give it another thought.

 

[ymz]

To change the tone a bit...

WELCOME to the TDI-Club !!!!

With regard to running WVO, please heed the expert advice already given !!

Since you just joined us, please do a bit (?) of reading - especially with regard to the lubrication needs of your Pumpe-Düse engine (special oil required - VW spec. 505.01 or better...)

Enjoy your stay here!

Yuri.

 

[Nitrowolf]

He's looking for first hand accounts ... something I'd like to see as well. I'm sure he understands from the other threads that the general consensus is that "it's bad, mmmmk."

I know there are a few people running WVO on the TDI's, but I've not really seen any first hand accounts, other than user error, so ... I'd like to hear some first hand horror stories as well!

 

[hkeycoach]

Thanks for your replys. What I am driving at is as you can see above quite a lot of no's but I have not read anywhere a first person account of anyone damaging a TDI running WVO. I have talked to few few folks that are running WVO in a newer TDI with no issue and a few companies that will install the second tank for me.

 

[vwrobert51]

I CAN TELL YOU THIS!! FIRST THING TO GO WILL BE YOUR IN TANK FUEL PUMP, IT WILL BURN ITSELF OUT FROM TRYING TO PUSH SVO THROUGH WINDINGS, THEN YOUR INJ WILL SHEIR FROM TRYING TO PUSH SVO THROUGH MICRO FUELPORTS ON INJ CAUSING PINTLES TO SIEZE(COST PER INJ $900.00) YES SOME FOOLS ARE TRYING TO USE IT, AND AT THIS TIME THEIR CAR MAY BE RUNNING, BUT FAILURE IS GOING TO HAPPEN!!! WILL THEY ADMIT IT! i THINK NOT, AND WILL YOU GET WARANTY!!!! ABSOLUTY NOT! SO PLEASE TAKE OUR ADVISE. YOU CAN DO A BETTER JOB AT SAVING THE PLANET AND HAVE A LESS STRESSFUL LIFE IF YOU JUST STICK TO B-5 BIODIESEL! HOW DO I KNOW??? I HAVE A CAR IN MY SHOP NOW WAITING FOR CUST TO COUGH UP $$$$$$ FOR REPAIRS.

 

[McBrew]

When you say...

I have talked to few few folks that are running WVO in a newer TDI with no issue

Are you sure they are running it in a 2004+ (Pumpe Duse injection) TDI? Those injection systems are very high pressure and have very small nozzle orifices. No, I don't have first-hand experience with WVO in a PD TDI, but I would recommend not getting into that.

You might want to consider using -- even making your own -- biodiesel.

 

[PeterV]

Perhaps you will have some difficulty in finding those TDiers that will step up to the plate and say look at me the dummy and look at what I did to me car by using wvo. I do think taking a relatively new car and converting it to wvo so early in its life is a perilous route.

Processing of the WVO is too important. Too many variables.

Exposing a $19,000.00 car is not for me due to the costs associated vs the savings.

Now if you can get an older A3 or perhaps an early A4 have at it.

Could you supply the "newer" tdiers names perhaps they know something we do not.

 

[hkeycoach]

Good info thanks. No I can not supply names just folks I have met who have installed the second tank in a few TDI. If I have a older 2005 am I driving an A3? It was built at the start of 2005

Thanks

 

[vwrobert51]

no a-3 went out in 1999, you have a A-4 with a p/d eng.

 

[ymz]

I'm afraid you have a bit of a learning curve issue...

A3, A4, A5, B4, etc. refer to body style. You can have a gasoline engine in those as well as a Diesel...

Engines are referenced using the engine code AHU, ALH, BEW, etc... you'll find yours most likely on a sticker on the timing belt cover...

Main thing is that the _type_ of engine in your car uses individual Fuel Injector Pumps - 4 of them - as well as a Lift Pump inside the fuel tank as well as an itermediate pump at the end of the camshaft... In North America these became available with the 2004 model year... the Unit Injectors are very expensive !!!!!!!

All the best,

Yuri.

 

[hkeycoach]

Thanks Yuri

I have an engine code of BEW. My learning curve can only go up.

Hkeycoach

 

[ymz]

>>My learning curve can only go up<<

Well, most of us come here to learn - fortunately we have outstanding experts who are more than willing to share their knowledge!!

Just hang around for a while...

BTW: keep your eyes open for any GetTogethers that may be within driving range to you... the NorthEast seems to have a greater number of them than most other regions... If you can attend one, you'll learn a ton and meet some of the nicest people!!!

All the best,

Yuri.

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

I think that's the key to this thing.. When you say you've heard success stories from folks with 'later model' cars, it's not that simple. There's a very definite line in the sand between motor series/technologies. I would be willing to bet that they were referring to the ALH motor series.

 

[nicklockard]

He's looking for first hand accounts ... something I'd like to see as well. I'm sure he understands from the other threads that the general consensus is that "it's bad, mmmmk."

I know there are a few people running WVO on the TDI's, but I've not really seen any first hand accounts, other than user error, so ... I'd like to hear some first hand horror stories as well!

[over-opinionated post begins]Yeah, well....the people who run into problems (all, eventually) running vegetable oil in their PD-Tdi's all seem to slink away in shame without posting.

What up with that LOL. Human nature?

Dude, you're never going to get an honest appraisal from first-hand experience on this one. People are either emotionally over-committed to proving a point or are too shamed to admit they ran into 'unexpected troubles.'[/end]

 

[PeterV]

Well said NickL.....

Come to a GTG and there you will see for yourself. The PD is not WVO tolerent. Now search search and search again for the info do the Biodieselnow also..

Its kinda like the TB issues well the dealer is experienced.... I won't take that to the bank..

 

[wny_pat]

Not in a PD!!!

You can in a older style TDI engine if you don't need to depend on it for primary transportation every day. But there is a good expense in doing the right conversion and in setting up a good filteration system. There is also the time involved in filtering. You just don't pour straight unfiltered oil into the WVO tank. There is work and time involved in this. You have to do your homework on this one. And with the VWs there is not a lot of room left under the hood. Doing a oil change can be a pita if you have extra WVO tank valves in the way. You have to unattach the valves to squeeze the filter up thru. Lots of other stuff to research thru also. And you don't convert unless you have a VAG-Com to adjust timing and check CELs that might happen because of the conversion. You can consider this a brief first hand report of over a years experience with WVO in a 97 Passat TDI. One big thing to remember is, WVO while there are a number of VW TDIs operating on it, is still in the expermental stages. There are lots of things that can go wrong, including the injector pump which is not cheap!

 

[riofrio]

I'm probably gonna get shot for asking this one, but I can't figure out for the life of me what 'PD' stands for, and which TDI models have it.

Is the A3/B4 TDI engine considered 'older style'? Is it safe(r) to run WVO/BD in these?

 

[frugality]

PD = "Pumpe Deuse", which loosely translates to 'unit injector', if I remember correctly. It's sort of like 'fahrvergnugen'....no one really knows how to define it. So it's not a dumb question. PD's started in '04.

Let's state this one more time, a bit more emphatically: YOU CAN RUN BIODIESEL IN !ANY! TDI. Biodiesel is real honest-to-goodness diesel fuel. You will not damage any diesel engine by running biodiesel in it, as long as it's good quality. Any pump-supplied biodiesel should be good diesel fuel. If you make your own biodiesel out of vegetable oil, the fuel is only as good as the backyard chemist who makes it. So if you make your own, you're taking a bit of a chance. Still, this is better than running WVO.

Using WVO (waste vegetable oil) is not advised in a TDI, even though you will find some who have run WVO fairly successfuly. For now. But there have been other threads that show how the injection pump gets gummed up when running vegetable oil. This is on VE (pre-PD) TDI engines. Also, another point that has been made is that when running a WVO system like Greasecar, the vegetable oil must be purged out before you shut down the engine. Where does this purged veggie oil go? Back to the diesel fuel tank where it gums up your your tank, fuel gage sender, etc.

'Just say no to WVO'. At least for TDI's. If someone really wants to run WVO, and that's a highly admirable ambition, buy an old diesel Rabbit or old Benz.

 

[Audi5000TDI]

Here is what you are looking for: a blog on a PD fraught with failure.

http://getoffoil.blogspot.com/

Being a pioneer means that you are on your own when it comes to fending for yourself. Lots of pioneers didn't make it.

 

[SoTxBill]

amazing that he asked for failures and everyone chimed in on everything but failures...

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING,,, THE WORLD IS FLAT!!! YOU WILL FALL OFF AND DIE!!!!!

well you will probably ruin your engine.. .but the blog above simply shows that a turbo is bad or even worse they dont know whats bad...

so its non conclusive even at that...

now back to the original question..

has anyone had a vw go bad running wvo??????

 

[Drivbiwire]

Not mine, but I have fixed no less than a dozen TDI's that attempted WVO. Typical failures are the injection pump seals, damaged injectors, plugged injection pump outlet valves, Damaged low pressure internal pumps, gummed up control servos, gummed up and corroded fuel temp sensors just to name a few off the top of my head.

So yes I personally have seen AND repaired quite a few TDI's that have failed to live up to the hype on WVO systems.

Most repairs due to WVO were no less than $2,000 by the time the owner rebuilt the pump, and replaced the injectors plus labor. Total savings...nada, zilch the big egg. Typically you can make it around 60,000-80,000 miles before the big repair bills start showing up.

DB

 

[Nitrowolf]

All those problems you've described, Drivbiwire, could easily be contributed to the fact that the oil was not sufficiently heated prior to switching over to the WVO system.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, but I would say a good portion of the problems experienced with WVO has been due to user error, not an inherient system problem.

 

[DSLDAV]

Wvo

You also have to admit putting 60 to 80K on any engine with ANY fuel will lend itself to having repairs needed. The engine is a mechanical device. I have over 245K miles on my 97 Passat with the last 83K on WVO. My wife hates the car - says I'm always working on it. I guess she is right I've had to replace the alternator, wheel bearings, struts, door lock mechanisms, nothing to do with running WVO not a single repair due to WVO. Still have the same turbo, injectors, injection pump... no failures. When one of these do go I will not BLAME WVO, I will blame the miles or running time in general.

As a earlier post stated you must be anal in the quality of filtered, dry WVO that you use. Period. When I replace this car I will run either WVO or homemade Biodiesel. I will not use it in a vehicle that has a warrenty.

I will do more research before converting a PD TDI when that time comes.

 

[wny_pat]

Also, another point that has been made is that when running a WVO system like Greasecar, the vegetable oil must be purged out before you shut down the engine. Where does this purged veggie oil go? Back to the diesel fuel tank where it gums up your your tank, fuel gage sender, etc.

Wrong - it is purged back into the WVO tank.

 

[frugality]

Wrong - it is purged back into the WVO tank.

Maybe it depends on the kit. Someone here had issues with their tank sender unit because WVO was being purged back to the diesel tank.

 

[frugality]

amazing that he asked for failures and everyone chimed in on everything but failures...
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING,,, THE WORLD IS FLAT!!! YOU WILL FALL OFF AND DIE!!!!!
well you will probably ruin your engine.. .but the blog above simply shows that a turbo is bad or even worse they dont know whats bad...
so its non conclusive even at that...
now back to the original question..
has anyone had a vw go bad running wvo??????

I think an earlier comment in this thread was probably close to the mark -- people who HAVE had failures are not really willing to go public with it.

This is an excellent read for those people wondering if WVO causes problems:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1189798

Pictures credited to Herm TDI from that thread:

This is your injection pump on 200k miles of real diesel:

This is your injection pump on WVO:
(After only 8 months on veggie oil, after the original owner had his original injection pump fail after 18 months on veggie oil -- see the above thread link.)

People who are set on using WVO in a TDI and turning a blind eye to the consequences will do what they've already pre-determined to do. We do thank you folks who are set on using WVO for not polluting as much and not supporting the oil industry.

And I'm sure Herm TDI, jasonTDI, Drivbiwire, and others also thank you for the business of fixing ($$$) your WVO-caused problems, too.