Lets build a CCV filter

[snowball]

I thought we could use this as a "special project" and clean up the GM, Engine and upgrades forums of all this CCV chat.

Here is an idea I worked up today at work. There are some products like these for sale at www.jegs.com
I do not care for the idea of a filter under the hood though.

Drawing of CCV-1 idea
Front view of CCV-1 idea
ISO type view of CCV-1 idea

Here are some design thoughts that I'd like this to adhere to:
1. Must separate the condensible from non-condensible gasses.
2. Should provide an easy means to drain the condensed vapors from the unit.
3. Should provide adequate volume to prevent frequent draining.
4. Contains the condensate in a closed container to prevent the release of vapors of condensate to the local enviroment (smelly, dirty, and polluting).
5. Provides a "suction" to pull the vapors from the crankcase.
6. Fits under the hood!
7. Provides protection against freezing in cold weather.

I'm not saying this is a perfect design right now! I do think that if all of us gave this some thought we can work out all the bugs and have a nice little system for our cars.
As I mentioned above I am against just venting the CCV via a filter or hose. This is based on pollution issues, cleanliness issues, and as phluid mentioned; "The hot air that is being vented into the engine bay is just going to get sucked in by the cone air filter. If the vapor that is escaping is oil vapor it will eventually cause the MAF to get dirty."

I was not able to find many other designs except the link above to jegs.com. I hear rumors of systems like this ready made though. If anyone can post links it would be great, otherwise I would be interested in making a system like this with anyone that is interested.

 

[MOGolf]

Has anyone considered adapting one from another vehicle? Here is a picture of one from a Rover 300Tdi.

I've never actually seen one. But the service manual indicates that it might actually drain back to the oil pan. In any event, I wondered if it could be mounted on top of the valve cover (in place of the current pressure valve). It looks much larger. I don't know if it would be too tall.

Perhaps someone it Europe can shed some light on this or similar device on other European diesels.

 

[PaulB]

Say, what is the function of that black disc on the standard CCV? It looks like a very simple, inefficient separator. Mine (Passat) has 3 holes, one for the valve cover, one for the intake and another for a pipe that goes down the side of the engine somewhere (I haven't figured out where). The reason I ask is that I wonder if we can't just bag this device. I saw a whole collection of CCV fittings in a auto parts store.

Also, what is the device with two wires right at the place in the intake where the CCV gasses enter? Is that a sensor? I thought I read someone said it was a heater. If so, why?

You have to wonder why VW has not bothered fixing this problem. They must have been aware of it many years ago. We now have a collection of home-made separators from members that are cheap and work way better than stock. Why would VW keep using this inadequate design? Are they looking for dollars for their service dept?

Paul

 

[MOGolf]

That black disc is described as the "pressure valve". It is supposed to prevent turbocharger boost from pressurizing the crankcase (according to Bentley's).

The wires do connect to a heater. It is to prevent icing of the intake in cold weather. In the old days of gassers, they used run an air tube from near the exhaust manifold to bring warmed air into the intake to prevent icing. On new fuel injected gassers, many vehicles route coolant through the throttle body to heat it in order to prevent icing.

What is icing? In cold weather, as the air rushes through the restricted passage of the throttle, moisture could condense and build up ice. This has the negative effect of choking off the air from getting into the engine. Heating that area solves the problem.

 

[Dan Clarke]

MIGOLFGLSTDI,

Where does Bentley say this thing is to keep turbo pressure out of the crankcase?

Dan

 

[MOGolf]

In mine it is on page 26-20, the Exhaust System and Emission Controls, Emission Controls (Diesel Engines), first paragraph.

 

[jaydhall]

Well, I believe the snow screen passes air but not water. Water is a liquid, so is oil. So, cut out the snow screen and recycle it as an oil strainer for the ccv..

Just a random thought...

 

[TDI2some]

So, currently, my idea is to cut the top off of one of the in engine bay fuel filters (from the standard 1.6 diesels), and clean out the insides to accomidate the neccesary filter/seperator housing. I will let ya'll know how it looks. This is new territory for me. GeWill, I will be careful.

 

[mickey]

Humbug. The black disc thingie is just an angled fitting. There is no "valve" inside it of any description.

It's plumbed into the intake BEFORE the turbo, anyway. It can't be pressurized.

-mickey

 

[PWM]

Here's another : http://www.autospeed.com/A_0338/page1.html

.. Just found that site - There's lots of good tech stuff !!
(You can search for free ones only !! ... only few crap articles so far

)
And much of that is useful for TDIs too - And the other stuff is still interesting !

 

[MOGolf]

Thumbing through the Rover service manual, there is no real clear picture of the oil separator shown above. However, in the part of servicing the cylinder head there is an indication that the separator plugs directly into the valve cover (on the side you can't see above) with an O-ring on it. The hose arcing off near the top and down to the right looks like it loops back up to the intake manifold. The bottom hose apparently goes down to the crankcase.

This kind of arrangement would allow it be mounted anywhere in the engine compartment. Use a hose to connect inlet to current valve, another hose to current intake position, and then figure out a way to drain back to crankcase (or a catch bottle).

 

[aaron]

I've been watching this thread, and somebody brought up an idea that I haven't seen addressed yet. Maybe you more technical folks can render an opinion.

Is it necessary to suck the old crank-case vapors out of the crank case? In other words, by merely venting it into a catch can, is that solving the entire problem? Or do we need to physically SUCK it out and into a catch can?

It seems to me that there should always be positive pressure inside the crank case, and sucking isn't necessary. But others have said there is a benefit to have the suction from the air intake to actively pull the blowby gasses out of the crank case. Just an idea, as small 12v fans are easy to come by and could easily be integrated into the CCV can you guys are proposing to assemble.

Aaron

 

[phluid]

Sucking out crankcase vapors does not really matter. In fact, when we suck on the crankcase, we aren't actually getting ANYTHING unless the crankcase is pressurized from blowby. Picture holding two straws. Put the ends of both straws in your mouth, and then put your thumb on the other end of one of them. You will notice you are only getting air from the straw that is not plugged up (the air intake).

Unless the crankcase is positively charged, there is no point in trying to suck out the gases. The converse of this is that because the crankcase is positively charged the gases will escape by themselves.

The current system may suck out crankcase fumes faster, but either way they will escape.

 

[weedeater]

Rarely, if ever, do I disagree with Mickey because he knows what he's talking about. But the CCV 'device' does indeed have a diaphram inside of it to make sure that the gasses flow only in one direction. That is, when the the crankcase pressure is greater than the ambient pressure, the diaphram raises so that the gasses flow out the hose to the side.

In the 'olden days' the crankcase vent was open and ran down a tube to the bottom of the car. Air moving past the tube as the car traveled provided enough suction to pull the vapors out. But, it dripped oil. And driving through high water was problematic since the water could be sucked up the pipe into the crankcase (crankcase pressure pulsates and goes less than atmospheric on occasion).

I have a book with a cross-section and explaination of this CCV thingy at home. If I can get the scanner working, I'll copy it here.

 

[GeWilli]

ideally I would like to see a design similar to mine.

made out of heat and oil resistant thermoplastic in a vrerticle cylinder internally baffled with replaceable aluminum or coper wool oil speratation media adn a drain plug on the bottom.

vapors all go in and only the clean gasses go through.

and it stays hooked together.

msuave was one of the first to stick the hose into a catchcan (soup can) full of steel wool. it worked.

I just don't like the vapors getting out side.

my proposed design would be about the same size as the oil filter cartriage and would attach to the side of it. Keeping it under the hood with a good 3-4" of water capacity should eliminate all chances of freezeup.

I am contemplating prototyping it with some high temp PVC (or CPVC) pipe. . . .

 

[tdiLF]

GW-

how do you replace the filter media on your ccv-1 idea. i think you should use the catch/drain from this design with your current in line ccv filter.

 

[snowball]

tdiLF:

I created the CCV-1 pictures just as a general idea. I actually made it up as one solid part in the computer. Idealy once the design bugs are worked out I will rebuild it in the computer as an assembly and be able to have a pattern of all the required parts that will make it up.
Of course finding premade parts to use will be a big plus. I mean why machine a cylinder, when there must be one sitting on a shelf somewhere?

My current plan for the filter media will be one of those all stainless steel dish scrubbers. It almost looks like a LONG ass chip that was turned off a part on a lathe, and then got all tangled up.
To change or clean the media though I'd make the housing so that it would be in two halves that join at about the center, between the two perforated plated that hold the media inplace.
Or maybe just make it so the top lifts off, along with the top perf plate? I'm not sure yet, but it will be dependant on the design issues that come up in this thread, along with the availability of off the shelf parts to use in the design.

 

[GoneDiesel]

Hey guys here is what I did for a CCV bypass about a year ago. I was planning on taking a Jegs overflow can with drain and filling it full of copper wool and sticking it inline from the CCV valve to the intake. Problems I had were the sizes of cans didn't fit in the space I had planned for or the cans were too small. So I like Gewilli decided to use PCV. I used a 3" PVC end coupling that allows a screw top and a 3" to 1" conversion with a drain at the bottom. I drilled the input hole on the side and threaded it to allow for another piece of tubing to run down to the bottom of the PVC catch can. Then I drilled a hole at the top of the PVC catch can lid and fitted a piece that would attach to a hose and run to the intake. I put real coarse copper wool at the bottom and fine copper wool at the top. Then a piece of fine cloth at the top to prevent any copper particles from leaving the PVC catch can and getting into the intake. So the vapors will run into the side of the can, down to the bottom, released into a mesh of copper wool, move up the can into finer wool, being scrubbed of oil, through cloth filter, out of catch can and back into the intake. Inside the hose running from the PVC catch can to the intake does not have oil on it at all. When I installed my boost gauge I removed the IC piping into the intake. The pipes were black with slight oil residue. The EGR was similar but no visible soot or oil crud build up to be seen at 25k mi. I bypassed at 10k mi. Here is a pic if the EGR.

Here is my CCV bypass.

Here is a close up.

I have removed a total of about 1.5-2 ounces in 15k mi. There may have been more because I left the valve open for a few months by accident.

 

[PaulB]

Looks like you rotated the stock disc thingy. Didn't I read a post somewhere else that said rotating it could cause problems?

Looks good, though. I like the black ABS pipe instead of white PVC, fits the color of the engine compartment better. That's not much stuff you removed, though. I wonder if a 2 inch or even 1.5 inch ABS pipe would have worked as well? What did the stuff look like, anyway? Mostly oil? I imagine any water would gradually evaporate and find its way into the intake over time...

How did you attach that right-angle fitting on top? I doubt you could use ABS glue, right, since it is not itself ABS? Maybe silicone glue?

Paul

 

[GoneDiesel]

PaulB I think if you rotate the disk thingy it will rub the intake pipe. I loosened the spring clamp to the MAF and gave the intake pipe a small twist so that it won't rub the CCV valve. As for glue I used PVC glue where ever glue was needed. Some parts are not glued. What I find when I drain the the CCV Filter is oil. I have not seen any water. It stinks really bad too.

I believe I will eventually run the hose after the CCV filter to the ground and run a hose from the airbox (post filter) to the intake. This will be a short term fix to the increase smoke we have been experiencing.

 

[Dan Clarke]

MIGOLFGLSTDI,

Thanks, I found the reference by Bentley about keeping the turbo pressure out of the crankcase. I disagree with them about turbo pressure ever getting there.

I do wonder if maybe it's purpose could be to prevent the vapor gasses, after the engine is shut down, from entering the intake tube. Since they are hot and will rise they may get on the MAF.

Dan

 

[Dan Clarke]

FYI and dome thoughts,

I'm thinking a large volume chamber will eventually prove necessary if the unit is to deal with the trappings of say a ten hour trip. There'll need to be enough media to not become saturated before time is given for the oil to drain off of it.
I don't know about other cars but the A4 Golf has enough room behind the bumper ahead of the left front tire ot accomodate a 1 1/2 gallon Rubbermaid red plastic gas can. A simple flat bar support located with a couple of sheet metal screws into the bumper and splash pan would keep it in there. There is room to plumb hose to it through the splash pan under the battery.

Hose inteded for crankcase ventilation is more flexible than heater hose and can tolerate a tighter bend without collapsing.

Dan

 

[mickey]

Drivebiwire rigged up his Racor filter to simply gravity drain the nice, distilled motor oil back into the sump. The clean air is returned to the stock inlet. I've seen it with my own eyes. He used transparant tubing on both sides of the Racor, and I could see that the engine side was black with oil, while the "exit" side was perfectly clean! Amazing.

You should see the engine compartment in his A3. You could eat off any surface in there. He has WAY too much time on his hands.

-mickey

 

[Dante]

Nalgene makes 1 liter wide mouth poly bottles out of Lexan. I think they also make some larger jars out of Lexan. Lexan is heat resistant, but I don't know if it is oil resistant. If not, I'm sure they make a wide mouth container that is both oil and heat resistant.

Nalgene also makes barbed bulkhead fittings that allow you to vent the lid of a wide mouth container, but I don't know if they are large enough for the gas outflow from the ccv system.

Assuming the bulkhead fittings are large enough, you could drill 2 holes in the top of a wide mouth container and install the bulkhead fittings. You could run a tube from one of the fittings to near the bottom of the container. Fill the bottom of the container with a spacer or loose media like plastic scrubbers with a more tightly packed layer of metal wool on top. If you wanted to get fancy, you could add a petcock at the bottom, or you could just pour or suck any buildup out.

 

[snowball]

Weedeater,
That would be great to see a sectional view of the CCV on the engine now, along with a description.

Is it possible that without a one way valve/diaphram in this unit that the crankcase could get filled with air from the intake? I don't know if that would be a problem with the stock setup, but as more drivers go to a ram air system for the intake, I'd think that the chance exists.

I found this text attached to a vacuum pump sold to evacuate the crankcase:
"Increase Crankcase Vacuum
By producing high crankcase vacuum, horsepower is increased by improving ring seal and preventing blow-by, intake-charge contamination and detonation. Allows racers to run low-tension piston rings for less friction. More consistent and effective than header-mounted evacuation systems."

For now I'd rather just see all the water and other contaminants vapor be pulled out of the crankcase, as opposed to the other features that the vacuum pump claims.
By having a slight suction on the valve cover though we will be able to pull out far more vapor than by allowing the engine to vent naturally to either a filter, or a long hose.

If the current CCV disk on the engine contains a diaphram (which it should, based on its shape) I wonder what the pressure is that the crankcase must overcome to open it? Or perhaps the diaphram is always open and only closes if the intake pressure should rise slightly? I'll look forward to weedeaters findings, and will check the RB CD when I get home to see if anything is mentioned.

 

[GeWilli]

damn good idea Dante,

I shoulda thought of that - here I am thinking i need to get some stuff and build something -

Time to raid the department stock room for prototype stuff. . .

 

[VelvetFoot]

I think it's ironic that you're trying to build a ccv and these guys are tearing their's out in favor of the elephant tube.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=2ca764ea0086aa17b1957b816c4cf785&threadid=21969

 

[Dante]

It doesn't sound like the blow-by bottle on the Cummins has a drain petcock.

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Dante Driver ]

 

[GeWilli]

GonDiesel - damn I missed your setup (bad habit skipping parts of the thread bad bad bad)

way cool!

What hose did you use for that? does it fit on the stock fittings easily?

Time to hit the hardware store. i like that design better than mine!

 

[Sooty]

I had one made up by Allard’s last year it’s basically a 6” diameter cylinder about 8” tall, with two internal cylinders each sealed at the top and bottom. The whole thing is loosely filled with wire wool.

Hot gasses are piped into the central chamber, they then have to negotiate the two half perforated walls before been passed out of the top via a K&N Filter. Condensed oil is collected in a small sump, and allowed to drain back to the sump.

I’ll take some pictures soon (just have to buy a camera!)