TDIClub Forums

TDIClub Forums (http://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php)
-   Fuels & Lubricants (http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   BG312 ATF usage in DSG transmission (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=502782)

Chiroman October 18th, 2019 14:46

BG312 ATF usage in DSG transmission
 
It seems that many VW dealerships are using BG products to inflate their profit margins. They are also using BG fluid in DSG services. I recently had my 60k km (40k miles) service done, only to find a BG3123 part number on my invoice. There was also a BGK6600 part number that I could not find any info on. I asked the service manager for the data sheet showing that the BG312 meets the VW OEM DSG gear oil specs. He could not produce anything, but checked with the BG rep who said the BG3123 was ok to use in a DSG, but also couldn't produce a data sheet. I checked the BG website, and no specs were listed, they only claimed it was "the superior choice in all automatic transmissions except CVT's". I doubt this applies to the DSG. Has anyone found a data sheet on this stuff and can confirm it meets the OEM gear oil specs for the DSG?
BG used to have a specific dual clutch fluid with part number BG319, but it does not seem to be used anymore. Looking back at my old invoices, I noticed it on a DSG service performed in 2014 on my '09 JSW.

johnsTDI October 18th, 2019 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiroman (Post 5544525)
It seems that many VW dealerships are using BG products to inflate their profit margins. They are also using BG fluid in DSG services. I recently had my 60k km (40k miles) service done, only to find a BG3123 part number on my invoice. There was also a BGK6600 part number that I could not find any info on. I asked the service manager for the data sheet showing that the BG312 meets the VW OEM DSG gear oil specs. He could not produce anything, but checked with the BG rep who said the BG3123 was ok to use in a DSG, but also couldn't produce a data sheet. I checked the BG website, and no specs were listed, they only claimed it was "the superior choice in all automatic transmissions except CVT's". I doubt this applies to the DSG. Has anyone found a data sheet on this stuff and can confirm it meets the OEM gear oil specs for the DSG?
BG used to have a specific dual clutch fluid with part number BG319, but it does not seem to be used anymore. Looking back at my old invoices, I noticed it on a DSG service performed in 2014 on my '09 JSW.

You got a valid point." i wouldn't want someone putting in a fluid in my transmission if they could not produce a data sheet on wether or not..? it would be compatable with what the manufacturer calls for. i too would like to know how BG products can say for sure there universal one size fits all ATF is the proper one for Your tranny.? I mean Dont get me wrong i have used BG products before and absolutley Yes..! they work Excellent" by far vs other cleaners but when it comes down to using the proper ATF in the transmission being its Fluid specific and BG not producing no data sheet for verification for there customers on compatability for You to view. i to would be sceptical & worried.? of course if any failier were to occure they would be on the hook for repairs.

jjblbi October 23rd, 2019 10:33

In our '06 Jetta I only used non VW dsg fluid once (Pentosin). It smelled and looked different than OEM. That was at 160k miles, I had the Mechatronic fail around 175k miles. I cannot say for certain if they are related. Since then OEM only (now 245k miles).

My '14 Passat has only seen OEM dsg fluid and is at 192k miles without issue. The upcharge is only ~$30 from ID Parts if I remember. Good luck, John

oilhammer October 23rd, 2019 10:52

I have been using Pentosin FFL2 since the DSG came out in 2004, never been an issue... and it seems to look, smell, and feel just like the original stuff to me. It certainly isn't like any "other" fluid (you could not possibly mistake it for anything else).

We sell BG stuff here, but not that. There are some generic fluids out there that claim to be for everything, but end up being for nothing. If you really wanted to know the chemistry of the DSG's fluid, it is likely somewhat unique, since it has to be a gear oil (chunky metal gears with synchronizers), a hydraulic fluid (for the pump and controls and passages in the M-unit), and a wet clutch friendly fluid. And it has to be able to do all of this over a wide temp range. And not all dual-clutch type automatics even use wet clutches (like Fords, that use dry clutches).

Personally I find it to be a dishonest thing to bring your VOLKSWAGEN to the VOLKSWAGEN DEALER and have them use anything at all that is not genuine VOLKSWAGEN unless they offer it ahead of time for a lesser price. In which case, the customer can decide if they want to.

Chances are if BG has a specific fluid for dual clutch transmissions, it is probably fine. But I still would be pissed to learn of this after the fact, especially when they probably charged you dearly for it considering it most likely cost them a fifth of the OEM fluid.

Chiroman November 15th, 2019 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5545700)
Personally I find it to be a dishonest thing to bring your VOLKSWAGEN to the VOLKSWAGEN DEALER and have them use anything at all that is not genuine VOLKSWAGEN unless they offer it ahead of time for a lesser price. In which case, the customer can decide if they want to.

I couldn't agree more oilhammer!

I found the data sheet for the BG 312 fluid on a download page of a BG distributor website. Strange that BG's main website does not provide the data sheet, but claims its the best thing since sliced bread.

Anyway, according to the data sheet, the BG 312 "meets or exceeds the performance requirements of the following automatic transmission fluids"
For VW: G055025A2, G055162A2, G052162A2, G052990A2, G052025A2, G052162A1, G055005A6, LT71141, G055005A2, G060162A2, G055540A2

It does not list G052182A2, the VW OEM DSG fluid. But it gets better. At the bottom of the data sheet is says (among other things):

"BG Universal Synthetic ATF (BG312) is not recommended for use in the following applications: Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVTs), Dual Clutch Transmissions (DCT), Direct-Shift Gearbox (DSG)"

Yet dealerships continue to use it, and the worst part is they don't even tell you that they are using it. BG says it provides warranty for their fluids, but the fine print says that their fluid must meet OEM spec for the warranty to be valid. In this case it clearly does not meet OEM spec, so good luck with a warranty claim.

oilhammer November 15th, 2019 11:33

Well the "meets or exceeds" game is a scam in itself. The key word here is "or", in which case it ALWAYS will "exceed" the specs, because there is no such thing.

It is like baking a cake. If the recipe says "set over for 350 F and bake for 15 min", well, 450 F "exceeds" that, right? So, you can just bake it at 450 F for 10 min instead, right? :p

It either MEETS in, or it does not. There is no "exceeds" and that is their way out.

Chiroman November 19th, 2019 15:47

Good point. I always thought the "meets or exceeds" claim by aftermarket suppliers was odd. Like you said, it either meets the spec or it doesn't. I doubt BG went to the VW engineers and asked them what they thought of their fluid, with the VW engineer responding "whoo dude, this stuff exceeds our specs, tell the world!"
Love the cake story... Made me hungry :)

JM Popaleetus November 21st, 2019 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiroman (Post 5551320)
But it gets better. At the bottom of the data sheet is says (among other things):

"BG Universal Synthetic ATF (BG312) is not recommended for use in the following applications: Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVTs), Dual Clutch Transmissions (DCT), Direct-Shift Gearbox (DSG)"...

Case closed. The dealer owes a new DSG refill.

Dealer upsells without asking has to be the biggest pet peeve of mine. Once had a dealer use some BG additive and change a few filters without asking an ex of mine during an oil change. Told them point blank that we weren’t paying for them. After some hesitation, and suggesting they get my old filters out of the trash, they relented.

SilverGhost November 22nd, 2019 07:07

Dealer I worked at a few years ago pulled this crap. I never took the BG stuff and insisted on the OEM fluid, but the other guys put what ever in. After I moved to a different dealer I found out they had been getting failed DSGs from the dealer I just left and reported the issue to VW. Might be part of the reason why I saw the BG rep and service manager scrambling around shortly before I left that dealer.

The BG stuff is red ATF with additives to make it work in a lot of different transmissions. BG rep had nothing when I pointed out that DSG was basically a manual with computer control and used gear oil with friction modifier.

Last I heard that dealer (and maybe BG) had paid for several failed transmissions.

OP - get that fluid changed STAT! Most of the failures we had were very soon after service.

Jason

Geordi November 22nd, 2019 22:45

The only fluid I would put in my DSG comes from IDparts. I trust their selections, and have put nearly 40k on it since I bought the car - so that service is coming up again soon I think.

Chiroman November 23rd, 2019 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGhost (Post 5552833)
BG rep had nothing when I pointed out that DSG was basically a manual with computer control and used gear oil with friction modifier

OP- get that fluid changed STAT! Most of the failures we had were very soon after service.
Jason


After I showed the service manager the data sheet showing the BG ATF fluid was not recommended for DSG and said that's probably because it is essentially a manual transmission, the Manager insisted that the BG rep said it was fine for the DSG. I said "That gives me about as much confidence as Ronald McDonald telling me that used deep fryer oil is the best thing for DSG's."
Yes, 10 liters of OEM fluid will be pumped through to flush out the BG crap. Hopefully having this crap in for about 600 miles won't cause any damage.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:08.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017

Page generated in 0.07205 seconds with 8 queries
[Output: 17.91 Kb. compressed to 17.28 Kb. by saving 0.63 Kb. (3.50%)]