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showdown 42 August 23rd, 2019 07:33

Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??

For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.

IndigoBlueWagon August 23rd, 2019 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531329)
Why are the high mileage Tesloop cars not to be considered in a discussion about vehicle longevity?

Because it's highly unlikely an individual owner would accumulate miles that fast, and under those more-or-less ideal conditions. Mild climate, good roads, easy access to charging stations allowing charging at times that optimizes battery life.

turbobrick240 August 23rd, 2019 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbarron55 (Post 5531376)
As Volvo helped pick up the tab for the work that helps as well.
If you read the instruction manual for the Volvo, decarburizing the cylinder head a every year or so and inspecting the bearings and replacing as necessary helps. If you follow the manual you will overhaul the car every few years.
I helped a friend work on his Volvo back in the 70's and in his case his wore out the oil pump shaft!
A car will run as long as you are willing an able to fix it as the Cubans have proven for 60 years.

Huh, I never heard that Volvo picked up part of his maintenance costs. I do know they gave him a new Volvo at every 1 million miles- 3.2 million btw. Makes sense though I guess.
https://www.indystar.com/story/money...volvo/2908911/

turbobrick240 August 23rd, 2019 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by showdown 42 (Post 5531392)
Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??
For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.

First it gets a secondary life as grid storage. Then they get recycled. No big deal. Those lead acid battery recyclers are often a nightmare ecologically, btw. Though a heavily concentrated area of lead pollution has got to be better than moderate lead pollution everywhere.

casioqv August 23rd, 2019 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5531351)
Like Irv Gordon's 5? million mile Volvo. There's nothing magical about that car, though it is very cool.


I googled Irv to check how many he's up to now and found out he passed away last year :(



I do think the Volvo 1800 was built with unparalleled quality... and it didn't have the concessions to safety over durability later Volvos had (e.g. making the interior soft instead of tough). True, any Ship of Theseus will last forever if you just replace things as they break, but from what I've heard Irv's car actually had surprisingly little replaced or repaired.

oilhammer August 23rd, 2019 09:20

Well the older cars like that P1800 didn't HAVE a lot of stuff to repair or replace. That helps. We have several farm tractors from the early fifties, the first of the post-war new stuff, and they were, and still are, extremely good reliable and functional machines.

IndigoBlueWagon August 23rd, 2019 09:21

Volvos of that era weren't anything special. I owned a 122, good friend had an P544. Drove a few used 1800s as I always like the car. The 1800, like a lot of low volume cars of that era (think Karmann Ghia) were rust nightmares. Volvo's engines of that era closely resembled BMC engines (MGB), including oil leaks, consumption, and SU carbs that needed frequent maintenance. Electrical systems weren't that great, either. They were simple, however, and easy to fix. And my '67 122 had rear disc brakes and shoulder seat belts. Ahead of its time.

Jay Leno did a video of the P1800 that was used in the TV show "The Saint", starring Roger Moore. It was very rusty when it was restored, and that car lived in the UK where it doesn't snow.

jackbombay August 23rd, 2019 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531400)
Because it's highly unlikely an individual owner would accumulate miles that fast, and under those more-or-less ideal conditions. Mild climate, good roads, easy access to charging stations allowing charging at times that optimizes battery life.

Conditions were far from ideal, most of the charging on the high mileage tesloop cars was done at "super charger" stations that are bad for the battery, use of the super chargers is supposed to be limited to long trips when "you have to charge quickly". The 450,000 mile tesloop car was supercharged regularly. That car did have the battery replaced twice.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/350883...-450000-miles/

Remember when the guy here with the user name 5King was stacking miles on his new ALH at an absurd rate? As a Medical courier? He hit 400,000 in a very short time, nobody here was saying his high mileage numbers should be excluded from consideration due to the rate at which they were accumulated.

casioqv August 23rd, 2019 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5531423)
Well the older cars like that P1800 didn't HAVE a lot of stuff to repair or replace. That helps. We have several farm tractors from the early fifties, the first of the post-war new stuff, and they were, and still are, extremely good reliable and functional machines.


Please excuse me for waxing philosophical for a moment.

Simplicity is immortality... simple systems cannot age. Aging emerges from complexity.

Simple physical matter- a single atom for example, does not age. An atom can fail for sure (e.g. atomic decay) but the probability of failure per time is constant, it doesn't increase as things get older.

So then why do vehicles and people age, when we're just made up of a lot of atoms?

Because they are complex systems made of individual ageless components... however they are robust to just a few isolated failures. Ageless components do fail, they just are no more likely to fail when older vs when new. But complex systems over time accumulate failures, and therefore gradually become worse.

Simple systems cannot accumulate failures- when a single part fails they immediately stop working, and when fixed they have identical reliability as when new.

An example:
If you look at something outrageously complex like a Mercedes Benz HVAC system, it exhibits horrible aging. It will work, but worse and worse as small parts of it fail over time. Take a base model MKIV climate control system in comparison- if one part fails it doesn't work anymore. Parts break, but the system never ages... it will go just as long between failures in a 700k mile car as a 7k mile car.

Humans age in the same way, and actually enter an ageless period when old, where our body has failed to the point that it lacks normal levels of redundancy and complexity. At that point, our chance of death is high, but no longer increases over time. Each year you live, you are just as likely to live another year (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11742523).


In places like Cuba and countries that are not wealthy enough to afford new cars, all of them operate in late life ageless phase. Once complex luxury cars can become ageless when everything fails except the last individual parts essential to make the car move.

IndigoBlueWagon August 23rd, 2019 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531434)
Remember when the guy here with the user name 5King was stacking miles on his new ALH at an absurd rate? As a Medical courier? He hit 400,000 in a very short time, nobody here was saying his high mileage numbers should be excluded from consideration due to the rate at which they were accumulated.

No, but his repair history should be excluded. He didn't replace dampers or brakes until he had over 400K on the car. I sold them to him. I asked how he got brakes to last so long, and he said he drove the same route every day, very light traffic, and he got so he could exit the highway, turn into the parking lot, and use is brakes only to stop when he was down to parking lot speed. And because Texas roads are pretty smooth and he didn't carry much, the dampers lasted far longer than normal. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

oilhammer August 23rd, 2019 10:23

There is a time vs. distance thing to take into consideration, too. Since "most" TDIs purchased new, or even used, had fuel economy as a very high consideration to the buyer, one assumes that they piled on a lot of miles in a relatively short period of time. Which, in most cases, means a lot of highway miles which are generally far easier on any car.

So, two identical cars, one driven 5k miles a year, the other driven 25k miles a year, after 10 years may not really look or feel much different than each other assuming both were cared for the same. Subtle things like wear patterns on pedals, shift knobs, steering wheels, etc. can give a clue as to more miles sometimes. But it usually isn't something drastic.

And I am in and out of some pretty TRASHED cars that often do not have [to me] that many miles on them. People can be destructive pigs sometimes. Other cars are like museum pieces.

redbarron55 August 23rd, 2019 11:31

I always felt that a high mileage car (say 100 K) that was driven highway miles was and had mostly driver seat wear was a good prospect to make a good second hand car.
Especially one that has a regular service history with the dealer (maybe good, maybe bad).
I just bought a 2012 Touareg TDI Executive with 96 K miles that was bought back and sat at the manufacturer's storage lot for a while. Regular service from Jim Ellis VW in Atlanta where there is little or no salt and was sold twice as a CPO used car by Ellis.
I think got a good deal and now to hope that the engine timing chains last...
Basically I believe in benign neglect and not starting new problems for no good reason.
That does not include oil changes etc

atc98002 August 23rd, 2019 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by showdown 42 (Post 5531392)
Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??

For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.

I don't know if it's federally mandated, but it seems that most if not all EV batteries have a pretty reasonable battery capacity warranty. Kia is 7 year/100,000 miles to retain at least 70% capacity. I believe VW is going to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty for 70%. Not counting the Leaf, with it's less than ideal battery cooling system, many other hybrids and EVs have reached substantial mileage on their original batteries. Tesla data shows that even after 140,000 miles most batteries are still at 90% capacity or better. It appears that an EV with proper battery cooling will not have a battery issues for the expected life of the car.

As to recycling, as already mentioned an EV battery can continue to function as local storage for a solar panel installation for many more years. There are also businesses ramping up lithium-ion recycling, as the minerals in the battery are worth enough to recycle.

But I said earlier, EV automobiles won't be completely replacing ICE vehicles for quite some time. I see both working side by side for many years, each doing what it does best. Would I buy another TDI? Yes I believe I would. Would I buy an EV in the future? I'm pretty sure that answer is yes as well. I personally have no conflict between the two. :)

flee August 23rd, 2019 22:30

We are into year 12 of owning an Escape hybrid, currently at 221,000 miles.
Not a real EV but it has AWD and I still get 26 mpg which is down from 29 originally.
This seems to indicate both the longevity of the battery tech and the ability of an
SUV, while compact, to deliver good economy over a long service life IMO.

All that being said, I would still be driving my '02 TDI but my 21 year old daughter is
the best fit for that vehicle insurance-wise.;)

El Dobro August 24th, 2019 02:51

There's a 2012 Volt named Sparkie that the original owner got up to 477,625 miles before it developed a problem. He sold it to a shop, which found the problem, repaired it and plans to continue driving it. They tested the battery and found it degraded only 20% after all that use.


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