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turbobrick240 February 4th, 2020 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 5569741)
@turbobrick - if you are really interested what's included in GREET, I invite you to download the model from https://greet.es.anl.gov/ . It's free; just requires registration. Both the "Fuel-Cycle model" and "Vehicle-Cycle model" need to be downloaded. Many of your questions are addressed in the tabs in the respective models (Excel based).

A list of documentation associated with the GREET model is available at https://greet.es.anl.gov/list.php .


Thanks wxman, I'll give that a shot tonight. I think I tried registering a while back but had some issues. My phone is pretty much my sole internet access, and sometimes the bandwidth is pretty poor out here. I apologize if some of my comments came across the wrong way. I probably know just enough to be dangerous on the subject of LCA's. That would be fantastic if the newest GREET model can/does answer many of my questions.

wxman February 4th, 2020 13:27

No offense taken on my part. As I mentioned, I welcome any input from other members here.

I should also mention that I couldn't be more pleased that many members are very happy with their EVs. My son has an EV (i-Pace) and loves it. Works very well for him. I've driven it on several occasions and it's very impressive. However, I'm more convinced than ever that it wouldn't work well for me, at least not at this time.

nwdiver February 4th, 2020 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 5569813)
However, I'm more convinced than ever that it wouldn't work well for me, at least not at this time.

What needs to change for it to work for you?

wxman February 4th, 2020 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5569822)
What needs to change for it to work for you?

Range, charging times, ability to tow, to name a few.

I have several family members in diverse places each about 600 miles. There have been times when family emergencies have occurred, and having a range of even 300 miles is inadequate in those situations, and charging times of even 30 minutes is not acceptable. I can reach each of these destinations on one tank of fuel, with plenty to spare in my diesel vehicle.

nwdiver February 4th, 2020 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 5569826)
Range, charging times, ability to tow, to name a few.

Maybe an EV 99.3% of the time and a diesel truck for towing and 600 mile emergencies?

flee February 4th, 2020 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5569738)
I was not limiting this to Dieselgate cars. There are loads of other cars that are available in other markets that we cannot get. Name just about anything that isn't some high performance sports coupe, and there is a diesel engine offering for it that WAY bests any gasoline version we get here.
Also, your A3 was an automatic. However, even my 2010 Jetta that was also so-cursed, was able to tag 52-56 with reasonably careful highway driving. Post delete, it got 60, and is still on the road today 1/4 million miles and climbing.
However, I do not feel deleted cars should be included. But there are still plenty that are able.
But to get to the broader point of "banned", it is more to do with what regulations they required, despite it not being as bad as they would have led people to believe (regarding NOx).
Did you know there are Bluemotion VAG products capable of getting 70+ mpg? Do you know there was a VAG product capable of getting over 80 mpg? And that was well over a decade ago.

OH, it is always easier to blame the 'regulators' for what is in many cases the product
of subsidized low oil prices and the marketplace.
You have often said that there are many fine cars that the manufacturers won't bring
into the US because they wouldn't sell enough to justify the effort it would take.
Even with Europe's strict pollution standards the diesels sell there in part due to high
fuel costs and also because there is a greener 'smaller is better' public perception, IMO.

IndigoBlueWagon February 4th, 2020 14:38

Smaller cars are more desirable to Europeans for several reasons. First, almost everything is smaller: Roads, driveways, parking lots, etc. Second, distances are shorter. Third, fuel is way more expensive. Fourth, taxes on many aspects of driving are higher, making smaller, less expensive cars more appealing.

In the Northeast we share some of these factors, size of city streets and distances, for example. Despite that, small cars are in the minority. My MKIV car looks comically small when parked among current pickups and SUVs.

We could encourage people to drive more fuel efficient, cleaner, and less resource taxing vehicles, but politicians don't want to be responsible for raising taxes. I've got a shamefully large lifetime carbon footprint. but I would welcome a carbon tax. And states like Oregon who offer lower taxes to less energy efficient vehicles is a great example of how sometimes government doesn't do the right thing. But $5/gallon gasoline would be a good start.

tikal February 5th, 2020 15:58

It will take more time in the US to switch from gasoline SUVs to electric SUVs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5569834)
Smaller cars are more desirable to Europeans for several reasons. First, almost everything is smaller: Roads, driveways, parking lots, etc. Second, distances are shorter. Third, fuel is way more expensive. Fourth, taxes on many aspects of driving are higher, making smaller, less expensive cars more appealing.

In the Northeast we share some of these factors, size of city streets and distances, for example. Despite that, small cars are in the minority. My MKIV car looks comically small when parked among current pickups and SUVs.

We could encourage people to drive more fuel efficient, cleaner, and less resource taxing vehicles, but politicians don't want to be responsible for raising taxes. I've got a shamefully large lifetime carbon footprint. but I would welcome a carbon tax. And states like Oregon who offer lower taxes to less energy efficient vehicles is a great example of how sometimes government doesn't do the right thing. But $5/gallon gasoline would be a good start.

Indeed. Even before Dieselgate is not like a fuel efficient light duty diesel vehicle was "taking over" the passenger vehicle market in the US. Why? Because most Americans do not want to pay a premium of xx% to go from 20 something MPG to 30 something MPG (or perhaps more) when gasoline is around $2.70/gallon (approx.). Now the price of RUG hasn't changed that much from the 'TDI period' of 2009-2015 and you are asking Americans to buy an smaller sedan EV for a premium of ++ xx% to help alleviate climate change and reduce air pollution!

Ok some people are going to give up their Prisues, BMWs, Audis, Mercedes Benz for another sedan such as the Model 3. But why would you give up your RAV4, Honda Civic, GM Equinox etc. SUVs that you bough or you can buy for around $30K for something comparable size and cargo that will be probably 30, 40 or 50 percent more expensive running on electricity when RUG is so inexpensive in the US?

turbobrick240 February 5th, 2020 16:11

It's not just about protecting the environment or saving money for most EV buyers. People want the cool new tech, self driving capabilities, crazy acceleration etc. That's why Tesla making performance and cutting edge tech. key elements of their cars was a brilliant move.

tikal February 6th, 2020 06:57

Let's see in this decade how EVs growth would do besides the 'cool tech' that Tesla and other luxury car makers are going to bring.

Right now in many states you have to do your research very well if you want to buy a Kia Soul EV, a Nissan Leaf and other less pricey EVs because many dealers will not provide warranty work since they are not certified to do so on an electrical vehicle.

So ok let's say you find a nice three year old Kia Soul EV for $12,000 with some really cool tech stuff and you will not be going to a gas station forever! Then one day there is an 'issue' and the EV won't start. Then you realize that you have to tow the car at your expense around 250 miles to the closest authorized/certified Kia dealer that is willing to work on it.

Not so 'cool situation' to be in :(

I bet you most Americans prefer convenience (plain vanilla gasoline vehicles) over 'high tech cool stuff' (EVs) that cannot be serviced locally.

turbobrick240 February 6th, 2020 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5570232)
Let's see in this decade how EVs growth would do besides the 'cool tech' that Tesla and other luxury car makers are going to bring.

Right now in many states you have to do your research very well if you want to buy a Kia Soul EV, a Nissan Leaf and other less pricey EVs because many dealers will not provide warranty work since they are not certified to do so on an electrical vehicle.

So ok let's say you find a nice three year old Kia Soul EV for $12,000 with some really cool tech stuff and you will not be going to a gas station forever! Then one day there is an 'issue' and the EV won't start. Then you realize that you have to tow the car at your expense around 250 miles to the closest authorized/certified Kia dealer that is willing to work on it.

Not so 'cool situation' to be in :(

I bet you most Americans prefer convenience (plain vanilla gasoline vehicles) over 'high tech cool stuff' (EVs) that cannot be serviced locally.

It depends largely upon which age brackets you're looking at. Tech disruptions can happen very quickly- look at how rapidly smartphones became ubiquitous. Or how quickly EV's have come to dominate markets like Norway. I think we'll see some paradigm shifting changes in this decade. Just look at how quickly fossil fuel industries are falling out of favor with investors. I think it will be more of an avalanche than a glacial retreat. ;)

casioqv February 6th, 2020 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5570232)
So ok let's say you find a nice three year old Kia Soul EV for $12,000 with some really cool tech stuff and you will not be going to a gas station forever! Then one day there is an 'issue' and the EV won't start. Then you realize that you have to tow the car at your expense around 250 miles to the closest authorized/certified Kia dealer that is willing to work on it.

Not so 'cool situation' to be in :(

I bet you most Americans prefer convenience (plain vanilla gasoline vehicles) over 'high tech cool stuff' (EVs) that cannot be serviced locally.


That would be a really frustrating situation. I would think the chances of an unexpected failure are much much lower than an ICE car, so the "expected inconvenience" would be lower, even if actually fixing it would be more hassle.


I only have N=1 experience, but I owned an e-Golf for 2.5 years and only needed to put air in the tires, whereas all of the ICE VWs I've owned had at least minor issues every few months.

IndigoBlueWagon February 6th, 2020 12:19

I heard a pundit on a financial channel say something yesterday that rung true: People are buying Teslas because Elon has made the brand attractive. That it's an EV is tangential to some buyers. They just want to be driving a Tesla.

bhtooefr February 6th, 2020 13:17

Yeah, and that was absolutely a goal, make a desirable car that happens to be an EV, don't just make an EV.

tikal February 6th, 2020 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5570318)
I heard a pundit on a financial channel say something yesterday that rung true: People are buying Teslas because Elon has made the brand attractive. That it's an EV is tangential to some buyers. They just want to be driving a Tesla.

It would be interesting to have a side by side graph of growth rate for Tesla vs non-Tesla EVs. I have a suspicion that the combined growth of vehicles such as Nissan Leafs, GM Bolts, Kia Soul EVs, etc. is not that impressive but I could be wrong.


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