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nwdiver January 18th, 2020 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5565675)
Uh, no. EVs have a long, long way to go before they compare favorably with a TDI that goes over 700 miles on a fill, has an order of magnitude more fill locations, and gets you the next 700 miles in 5 min or less.

Why on Earth would any sane person want to drive 700 miles without stopping? And there's no real benefit to an 'order of magnitude' more 'fill locations'. When I'm <100 miles from home I only need 1 (at home). When I'm traveling I just need a spot between point A and B.

Also.... pretty sure there's more places to charge an EV than there are petrol stations. I have >15 sockets in my house alone. :cool:

IndigoBlueWagon January 18th, 2020 18:25

You're failing to understand the key benefit (to me, anyway) of diesels. Freedom. I can drive where I want, whenever I want, stop where I want...or not...without having to abide by software dictating my route, stop locations, and duration of those stops. I find that freedom invaluable. It's a big part of what I love about driving, and what I enjoy about road trips.

Try plugging your Model S into one of those 15 110v sockets in your house and see how long it takes to charge. :D And FWIW I have a 275 gallon take of over the road diesel and a pump in my garage. Much quicker than a 220v charger.

nwdiver January 18th, 2020 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5565707)
You're failing to understand the key benefit (to me, anyway) of diesels. Freedom. I can drive where I want, whenever I want, stop where I want...or not...without having to abide by software dictating my route, stop locations, and duration of those stops.

You're failing to understand the key benefit (to me, anyway) of EVs. Freedom. I can make my own energy at home from my roof. I don't need any ingredients from a local restaurant (that runs out). I get all the energy I need (plus some) delivered everyday from the sky. I can still drive where I want, whenever I want stop where I want... or not. And many of the places I can stay offer a free fill-up while I'm sleeping :)

jackbombay January 18th, 2020 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5565707)
You're failing to understand the key benefit (to me, anyway) of diesels. Freedom. I can drive where I want, whenever I want, stop where I want...or not...without having to abide by software dictating my route, stop locations, and duration of those stops. I find that freedom invaluable. It's a big part of what I love about driving, and what I enjoy about road trips.

You must be aware that people like you (and me) that drive 1300 miles in a day are so exceedingly rare that statistically we essentially constitute zero percent of the population of the united states, yea?

I do find your irrational resentment of electric vehicles entertaining though!

IndigoBlueWagon January 19th, 2020 03:25

I find nwdiver's irrational belief that EVs are the right answer for everyone equally entertaining.

I don't resent EVs. I drove my friends' Model 3 on New Year's and was impressed. Not so much by the quiet and power, which I expected (I've driven a Model S in the past) but that if felt like a real car. Info on Tesla's poor build quality are everywhere, but a short drive in this particular car didn't show that. Of course it only has 47K on it, and I'm daily driving a car with 400K. So my bar for NVH, etc., isn't very high.

An EV would work for me for a large portion of my automotive needs. I would not want to use one for road trips. I realize it can be done, but I wouldn't enjoy it. My bigger issue is I wouldn't spend $50,000 (or less, we don't need to argue about that) on ANY car, especially one that doesn't meet 100% of my needs. Others are OK with that, whether they're buying a Tesla, a BMW, or a Porsche. But I'm not, apparently. I got more pleasure helping my kids get through grad school than I would have driving a Porsche.

Occasionally (less often these days) I'll visit a showroom and look at something I view as an "aspirational" car (Porsche Cayman is one example). And I always leave thinking that, even as a life long car enthusiast, I can't see spending that kind of money on a depreciating asset that will simply wear out. Inexpensive cars suit me better, and these days, old inexpensive cars.

jackbombay January 19th, 2020 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5565768)
I find nwdiver's irrational belief that EVs are the right answer for everyone equally entertaining.

I'm almost positive that is not his belief.

I bet his "belief" is much more accurately summed up as "EV's are largely capable of everything ICE cars are capable of."

Ultimately we need people like him supporting EV's and people like you that are adamantly opposed to them so the casual observer can identify the logical middle ground.

IndigoBlueWagon January 19th, 2020 15:04

You did't read my post if you think I'm adamantly opposed to them. I'm not. I think they have the potential to make a significant contribution to reducing air pollution, and can be a convenient and pleasant alternative to ICE in many applications. If I were still traveling extensively I'd own an EV right now: Access to HOV lanes and preferred parking with a charger at the airport would be enough. And although it's a minor thing, the idea of being able to pre-condition the cabin is very appealing, especially after years of driving a cold-blooded TDI in winter.

I posted elsewhere recently that I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to cars and technology. I prefer not to have a screen in my car, don't want active safety features, would be happy to forgo ESP, ASR, or even ABS (have one car without any of those). I'm still able to turn my head to back up, seems to work fine in the absence of a back-up camera. And heaven forbid, I much prefer shifting my own gears. So I'm not exactly in anyone's target demographic for any new car.

Unfortunately some EV drivers exhibit a messianic zeal about their vehicles that prevents them from considering that they may not be suitable, or preferable, for some drivers. If someone doesn't want one they're either ignorant or biased. That makes some people simply push back harder on the concept. Unfortunate.

Rrusse11 January 19th, 2020 16:56

"I prefer not to have a screen in my car, don't want active safety features, would be happy to forgo ESP, ASR, or even ABS (have one car without any of those). I'm still able to turn my head to back up, seems to work fine in the absence of a back-up camera. And heaven forbid, I much prefer shifting my own gears." IBW

I see you're old enough to appreciate "the good old days". I suspect I'm a
little further down the track, so yes, luddites we may be. I find the quality
of the "old stuff" is usually much better. The MBAs have managed
to cheapen everything for the sake of their bottom line.

IndigoBlueWagon January 19th, 2020 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rrusse11 (Post 5565922)
I find the quality of the "old stuff" is usually much better. The MBAs have managed to cheapen everything for the sake of their bottom line.

Guy I know told me once that "the best cars were built in the 90s." I tend to agree. It was a decade when manufacturers had figured out how to meet the current emisisons and safety standards, and when cars were still built to quality standards and priced to cover the cost of manufacture. Since VW launched the MKIV cars in '98, I consider my '02 as a car from the 90s as well.

But accountants (and competition) did take its toll. My '93 Mercedes 300D had a MSRP of $47,500. That's for a car with 119 HP. When Lexus launched the V8 LS400 for $35,000, Mercedes had to cut prices and costs. That's why the successor platform to the W124, the W210, was fraught with problems.

Lightflyer1 January 19th, 2020 19:49

Guy I know told me once that "the best cars were built in the 30s." I tend to agree. It was a decade when manufacturers had figured out how to meet the current emissions and safety standards, and when cars were still built to quality standards and priced to cover the cost of manufacture. Since Ford launched the V8 cars in '32, I consider my '35 one of the best from that era as well.

But accountants (and competition) did take its toll. All cars built since then are more complicated and more expensive and fraught with problems.

They will probably say the same thing 40 years from now. That was the time they used to make "good" cars.

https://i.imgur.com/0QrgJODh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jqa46eLh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iXJe4Hch.jpg

nwdiver January 19th, 2020 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5565768)
I find nwdiver's irrational belief that EVs are the right answer for everyone equally entertaining.

99.9% isn't 'everyone'; Math ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5565649)
I'd say EVs with Model 3 type specs (~300mi Range + 250kW Charging) are now more convenient than 99.9% of use cases.

Clearly I agree EVs don't work for 'everyone equally'; There's some people that won't use a form of transportation they can't breed in their barn or fuel from their field.

IndigoBlueWagon January 20th, 2020 03:26

Cars from the 30s may be great, but really aren't usable on today's roads or in today's traffic. Not fast enough, don't corner well enough, not safe, don't stop well. But many are elegantly designed and extremely well made. The other thing that strikes me about cars from the 90s on is that they are almost all reliable. Cars used to break. And wear out. Even new cars. That's far less common now.

kjclow January 20th, 2020 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5565966)
Guy I know told me once that "the best cars were built in the 30s." I tend to agree. It was a decade when manufacturers had figured out how to meet the current emissions and safety standards, and when cars were still built to quality standards and priced to cover the cost of manufacture. Since Ford launched the V8 cars in '32, I consider my '35 one of the best from that era as well.

But accountants (and competition) did take its toll. All cars built since then are more complicated and more expensive and fraught with problems.

They will probably say the same thing 40 years from now. That was the time they used to make "good" cars.

https://i.imgur.com/0QrgJODh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jqa46eLh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iXJe4Hch.jpg

Isn't that the model that Clyde Barrow wrote to Henry Ford about? Told him that he makes one fime automobile.

Rob Mayercik January 20th, 2020 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5565980)
There's some people that won't use a form of transportation they can't breed in their barn or fuel from their field.

Um, at the risk of getting misinterpreted and kicking off a flame war, the above statement sure sounds to me like an example of that "messianic zeal" IBW was mentioning up-thread...

Lightflyer1 January 20th, 2020 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow (Post 5566023)
Isn't that the model that Clyde Barrow wrote to Henry Ford about? Told him that he makes one fime automobile.

Yes it is. They were killed in a '34 though.

https://i.imgur.com/8F8p9Ieh.png


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