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Tdijarhead August 24th, 2019 04:10

I just went to the fuel station and filled my golf 796 miles and the fuel light wasn’t on...had to have been close. I’ve had several (5-6 )800+ mile tanks since I’ve owned my golf. I fill the tank completely, the vent has been removed.

I love getting the most miles per fill up on this car. Which brings me to a question.

From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Because if I am, that would mean that under normal circumstances an electric car with a factory range of 300 miles would have an effective operating range of 180 miles without recharge. Between the low 20% (60 miles) and the high 80% (240 miles).

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “, which I never seem to have gotten in my golf. I would never even consider going to the fuel station at just below 1/4 tank and only filling to just over 3/4 that’s just silly.

I must not be understanding something in this whole equation. Oh and nwdiver don’t bother answering me, you’re on my ignore list, whatever you post I can’t see and have no intention of even trying to look.

vwxyzero August 24th, 2019 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5531379)

Thanks! That's a beauty! I'll comment on the other end of that link when I get some extra time.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon August 24th, 2019 05:54

Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time. Not really accurate as EV ranges have increased, but it's not that far off.

There are a lot of things I like about my MKIV TDI, but near the top of the list is the range between fills. Once you get used to 700+ miles on every fill, with some over 800, it's hard to go back to even the 500 per tank my GSW delivers. I would not enjoy recharging every 200 or so miles. And before someone posts "just plug it in at night," I have a 275 gallon over the road diesel tank with a pump at my house. So I can refill at home...in 5 min or less.

jackbombay August 24th, 2019 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
From what Iím reading ďfilling upĒ an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, Iím not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and Iím never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

You're not understanding it correctly, nobody is trying to mislead you.

300 miles of range means you can drive it 300 miles, the car will limit charging to %80 and stop moving when you hit %20, with that %60 of the batteries maximum capacity the car can go 300 miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get ďrange anxiety ď...

You think EV owners get range anxiety bad? My buddy has a Toyota Landcruiser, 1984 model, he gets 12 MPG, he has to fill up at 160 miles! HE ran out of gas in Nevada, he got 4 gallons, he had to go 50 miles to get to the next gas station, on 4 gallons, he ran out as he pulled into the gas station...

jackbombay August 24th, 2019 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531646)
Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time.

If your daily driving is only 50 miles I see no issue, some people might let a fuel light control their emotions, but I know my car will go 100+ miles once the fuel light has come on so if I'm only driving 50 miles there is no reason to care about the fuel light.

atc98002 August 24th, 2019 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
From what Iím reading ďfilling upĒ an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, Iím not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and Iím never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Nah, not quite accurate. For best longevity, it's best to keep a battery between 20-80%, but it's not required, and many EV owners charge to 100% all the time with no significant impact on battery life. I believe it's more important to not drop below 20% too often, but that's really more in line with how I treat my gas tank anyway. Also, most EVs have artificial limits to the minimum and maximum charge limits. What they list as a 64 kW battery is restricted to a usable amount of perhaps 56-58 kW. The rest is used as a buffer at the top and bottom of the charging limits. Again, to provide better long term battery life.

bizzle August 24th, 2019 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
I just went to the fuel station and filled my golf 796 miles and the fuel light wasn’t on...had to have been close. I’ve had several (5-6 )800+ mile tanks since I’ve owned my golf. I fill the tank completely, the vent has been removed.

I love getting the most miles per fill up on this car. Which brings me to a question.

From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Because if I am, that would mean that under normal circumstances an electric car with a factory range of 300 miles would have an effective operating range of 180 miles without recharge. Between the low 20% (60 miles) and the high 80% (240 miles).

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “, which I never seem to have gotten in my golf. I would never even consider going to the fuel station at just below 1/4 tank and only filling to just over 3/4 that’s just silly.

I must not be understanding something in this whole equation. Oh and nwdiver don’t bother answering me, you’re on my ignore list, whatever you post I can’t see and have no intention of even trying to look.

People are simply repeating what they've read from 20 years ago. The general rule you are citing is still accurate, but the end-user doesn't have to worry about it. Do you remember charging single cell rechargeables decades ago? Both the batteries and the chargers were dumb so the user had to monitor the charging cycles. Now you can still find dumb batteries but you'll be hard pressed to find a charger that isn't smart in some way--monitoring the battery condition as well as leveling it when necessary. As the technology improved, and became more dangerous, the battery packs themselves became smarter (compare the battery packs for any major cordless tool company) where one can't realistically charge a cell individually. Those packs, like all of the battery packs in any of the EVs we're discussing, have monitoring and stabilizing coding that the electricity has to flow through in order to charge them. They aren't raw cells that the end-user has to think about conditioning. When people only charge their batteries up to 80% on the dash the battery pack itself isn't at 80%. Similarly, when a driver is seeing 0% on the dash, there's still a bit of hidden capacity for emergency (in the eGolf this was called "Turtle" mode where everything would shut off and the motors would creep along at about 5mph for another couple miles so a driver could at least get off the main road and possibly make it to park and charge) and even then there's at least 20% more that the end-user will never see.

Batteries benefit from not being deep discharged or fully charged and the 20/80 just seems to be where the best efficiency curve is but that doesn't mean they don't also benefit from just keeping them at right around 50% charge at all times, which is what people manually limiting their charge cycles to 20/80 on the dash are doing. It's the same with mobile phones or any consumer device. End-users can't normally deplete batteries below the 20% threshold regardless of what the charge indicator is showing. This is especially true with Li-based batteries because they will literally explode when they become destabilized.

In comparison to liquid fuel based vehicles, I've been driving European imports for the last 30 years and it's always been my understanding to fuel them up before they drop much below 1/4 tank (or 1/8 tank, whatever...point being not to drive them to empty like you seem to be doing).

IndigoBlueWagon August 24th, 2019 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bizzle (Post 5531690)
In comparison to liquid fuel based vehicles, I've been driving European imports for the last 30 years and it's always been my understanding to fuel them up before they drop much below 1/4 tank (or 1/8 tank, whatever...point being not to drive them to empty like you seem to be doing).

What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D

When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.

bizzle August 24th, 2019 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531697)
Funny how you feel the need to educate us on battery technology, and then you repeat a non-fact based guideline from 20 years ago. What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D
When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.

I never said that running out of fuel makes a TDI hard to start. Is that really all you think about when someone advices someone else not to run or store a vehicle with no fuel in the tank?

Running any vehicle down to where there is no fuel left in the tank is an invitation for problems, regardless of year, make, or model. Waiting to fill your tank up for 800 miles, like the person I was responding to, also seems like a stupid way to drive around, regardless of what it could do to the car because of what it can do to the *driver*.

The post I wrote about battery tech was 100% accurate and if you have anything to augment or refute it, add to the conversation. Not sure what incentive you have to take potshots at my points.

bhtooefr August 24th, 2019 13:12

100% being a true 100% depends on the manufacturer - Tesla's usual practice is for 100% to actually mean 4.2 volts per cell, their cells' maximum charge voltage rating (unless a problem is detected which warrants reducing maximum charge voltage). So, if you need the range, you can use it, but you're advised that normal usage charging should be to 90% to extend longevity.

0% is almost never a true 0%, though, AFAIK everyone has some buffer at the bottom to avoid damage.

casioqv August 24th, 2019 17:35

I found this site really useful at explaining battery management and longevity.


https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

Tdijarhead August 25th, 2019 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531671)
300 miles of range means you can drive it 300 miles, the car will limit charging to %80 and stop moving when you hit %20, with that %60 of the batteries maximum capacity the car can go 300 miles.
...


Thank you, that is something I did not realize.



Quote:

Originally Posted by bizzle (Post 5531703)
Running any vehicle down to where there is no fuel left in the tank is an invitation for problems, regardless of year, make, or model. Waiting to fill your tank up for 800 miles, like the person I was responding to, also seems like a stupid way to drive around, regardless of what it could do to the car because of what it can do to the *driver*.
.

One of the things we love about these cars is the incredible miles per gallon we can achieve. I have never run my car out of fuel, I agree that is pretty stupid.
However I donít think Iím the only one who drives as far as I can on a tank of fuel. I donít like to stop at the diesel pump every 2-3 days because my tank needs topping off.

If your driving style is such the youíre topping off every few days thatís fine I donít care itís your decision, just in my opinion, silly. Kinda like having to plug your electric car in every day.

Mythdoc August 25th, 2019 12:06

500 miles to fill up at around 1/4 tank seems pretty fine to me in my Q5 TDI. I have a couple of stations where I like to go, so when I am passing by, I stop. YMMV

tikal August 25th, 2019 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5531587)
I don't know if it's federally mandated, but it seems that most if not all EV batteries have a pretty reasonable battery capacity warranty. Kia is 7 year/100,000 miles to retain at least 70% capacity. I believe VW is going to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty for 70%. Not counting the Leaf, with it's less than ideal battery cooling system, many other hybrids and EVs have reached substantial mileage on their original batteries. Tesla data shows that even after 140,000 miles most batteries are still at 90% capacity or better. It appears that an EV with proper battery cooling will not have a battery issues for the expected life of the car.

As to recycling, as already mentioned an EV battery can continue to function as local storage for a solar panel installation for many more years. There are also businesses ramping up lithium-ion recycling, as the minerals in the battery are worth enough to recycle.

But I said earlier, EV automobiles won't be completely replacing ICE vehicles for quite some time. I see both working side by side for many years, each doing what it does best. Would I buy another TDI? Yes I believe I would. Would I buy an EV in the future? I'm pretty sure that answer is yes as well. I personally have no conflict between the two. :)

According to this:

https://www.kia.com/us/content/dam/k...ty_soul_ev.pdf

It is 120 months/100,000 miles and it is transferable and it includes the Battery pack (ďEV Battery).

I presume the "small print" will say something like if you 'abused' it or extreme climate the warranty is either reduced or cancelled.


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