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jmodge September 3rd, 2019 21:27

I think mass transit was the wrong term for me to express my thought, perhaps public or for profit transportation. At any rate, it looks to me like there is a widening gap between the cost of automotive technology and maintenance/repairs relative to wages and cost of living. There will always be those it won’t affect, but many it does and will. What I am saying is as there are more people who don’t buy vehicles the costs have to be picked up somewhere. Labor and materials have been paid by the economic deck of cards (mainly credit). Electric and self driving vehicles used to transport people looks very probable to me. If people are kept working and average wages line up to average costs of living, the deck stays put. I started driving in the 70’s, very affordable and wages that covered the cost of living were easy to come by. I’m just not sure that is true for the majority of young people nowadays.

oilhammer September 4th, 2019 04:18

The mass transit in STL is little more than a conveyance of gangs and thugs to go wherever it does to commit their shootings. Security is awful. The only way I have ever ridden it is during daylight hours with a group of friends. And even then, it is pretty sketchy.

kjclow September 4th, 2019 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmodge (Post 5533902)
Can of worms either direction. It will be interesting to see how long technology stays affordable to the middle class. I still think I will see mass transit become the most viable mode of transportation in my lifetime

From where I live, I'd have to drive anywhere between 2 to 10 miles to either get the bus or light rail. However, the light rail only moves me farther from work and the bus would probably add at least 45 min to my commute.

jmodge September 4th, 2019 06:44

You must feel at home when you go to the Detroit Auto Show, there was talk of building rail services from K-zoo(little Detroit) to GR. It would be a great way to bring more crime to GR.

jmodge September 4th, 2019 06:52

I just don’t see cars and trucks, the way they are built with all the bells and whistles, being affordable in the future to the average American. Most vehicles on the roads now seem to have one person in them. It is getting to the point people need a job to keep their vehicle rather then the other way around. I guess I am a dinosaur, less technology the better

jmodge September 4th, 2019 06:53

Include insurance costs into the budget and ouch

kjclow September 4th, 2019 07:04

The biggest difference is really the cost of education. I graduated in 82 with a BA in Chemistry and about $5000 in school loans. My first job started around $18,000. My daughters both attended instate schools. One graduated with a BS in education and the other with a BFA in dance. Both have (had) school loans in the $60,000 range. The teacher started at $35,000 in 2007 and only taught for three years before deciding that she couldn't afford it. The dancer has yet to find her career path.

IndigoBlueWagon September 4th, 2019 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmodge (Post 5534063)
I just don’t see cars and trucks, the way they are built with all the bells and whistles, being affordable in the future to the average American. Most vehicles on the roads now seem to have one person in them. It is getting to the point people need a job to keep their vehicle rather then the other way around. I guess I am a dinosaur, less technology the better

People have been saying this for many years. But auto sales continue to be one of the main engines of our consumer economy. A lot of single young people will take on an auto loan payment instead of moving out of their parent's house.

Cars are a big expense. But the way the US is laid out and zoned, and given where jobs are, they're pretty essential.

My daughter is in school in LA, and after a lot of research she chose to live right downtown, one block from a subway station. But the service is somewhat erratic, they closed her station for this past summer to renovate it (how old is that system?), and the rail network is severely limited. Within weeks of moving into her apartment she got a car. Without one she couldn't work part time, visit family regularly, or meet up with friends without a big time commitment. She lived in San Diego the previous year and there she could get an Uber Pass that allowed her to get to school there for $3. Not so in LA. And she used Tesloop to get between LA and SD, which worked pretty well. LA, like most cities, just doesn't work without personal vehicle.

Mythdoc September 4th, 2019 07:19

Reading some of these comments, I wonder when did being able to afford a car and having to use public transportation become the dividing line between good and evil? I thought it was just between rich and poor. What happened to walking a mile in the other person’s moccasins. Oh, right, you guys think poorly of Indians too. Meanwhile, the truly wide scale damaging crimes on our economy and society continue to be committed by rich folks who have a chauffeur.

jmodge September 4th, 2019 07:36

Cars are a big expense. But the way the US is laid out and zoned, and given where jobs are, they're pretty essential.

Can’t argue that, I hope the next generation can help their kids also. No doubt people will adapt, they always have. But I can remember when I was very young and saving and budgeting seemed to be everyone’s way of life before credit was common. Not to say saving and budget isn’t now, but consumer choices were much fewer and DYI more relevant without credit. Cheap throwaway choices didn’t exist as much because manufacturers couldn’t afford to produce products people couldn’t pay for out of their pockets or wouldn’t buy again. I try to instill in my kids not to depend on this deck of cards to carry them. If it does fall, and history suggests it will at some point, if you are prepared opportunities exist. Work diligently and be smart with money, I don’t see car loans as smart money and for many people they don’t have a choice

jmodge September 4th, 2019 07:42

*** does prejudice against Indians show up in this thread, or deciding what someone’s opinion is without them voicing it. Talk about prejudice, wow. Good and evil? Go into that one a little more too

Mythdoc September 4th, 2019 07:50

And then there’s the part about casually dispensing opinions about others but magically becoming so sensitive when called on it, or when others do it to yourself. Enjoy GR. A little bit of Lexington in Michigan.

kjclow September 4th, 2019 08:11

I agree with jmodge, that part of your post was insensitive and should be removed.

aja8888 September 4th, 2019 09:21

Anyway, what was this thread about? :confused:

jmodge September 4th, 2019 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888 (Post 5534104)
Anyway, what was this thread about? :confused:

Electric vehicles, among many other things, as usual

jmodge September 4th, 2019 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythdoc (Post 5534084)
And then there’s the part about casually dispensing opinions about others but magically becoming so sensitive when called on it, or when others do it to yourself. Enjoy GR. A little bit of Lexington in Michigan.

What casual opinion was that? I don't remember expressing my opinion about tennessee having the best moonshine, but people start drinking it a little too early. Just an opinion, don't have to get out of sorts about it.

aja8888 September 4th, 2019 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmodge (Post 5534107)
Electric vehicles, among many other things, as usual

This doesn't mention anything about electric vehicles: Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: 'Now it is absolutely clean'

jmodge September 4th, 2019 09:35

I'm cross pollenizing then

kjclow September 4th, 2019 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888 (Post 5534104)
Anyway, what was this thread about? :confused:

Like a lot of threads, it's morphed into whatever the flavor of the day is. Pumpkin spiced cars, anyone?

Oooh wait... maybe the VW execs are figuring out how to have the DPF put out pumpkin spice when it does a regen! Even better than French fries from wvo.

turbobrick240 September 4th, 2019 10:46

If these VW ID.3 EV's take off in Europe like I expect, VW may not have much incentive to continue their diesel development programs.

https://www.wfmz.com/news/new-electr...nch/1117036305

tikal September 4th, 2019 11:01

Europe vs USA
 
Considering the cost of fuels in Europe and their population density the EVs rate of growth has a potential to be much higher than in North America.

Considering the cost of fuels in the US and historical trends, gasoline powered large vehicles, will be the preferred choice of transportation followed by a very distant second: light duty diesel + gasoline hybrids + EVs

VW will sell in the US what people want to buy. Vehicle such as gasoline powered Tiguans and Atlas are going to eventually dominate if gas stays nationwide at below $3/gallon on average.

IndigoBlueWagon September 4th, 2019 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5534153)
VW will sell in the US what people want to buy. Vehicle such as gasoline powered Tiguans and Atlas are going to eventually dominate if gas stays nationwide at below $3/gallon on average.

This. At current fuel prices there simply is no incentive for people to conserve, much less change to an unfamiliar technology.

aja8888 September 4th, 2019 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5534153)
VW will sell in the US what people want to buy. Vehicle such as gasoline powered Tiguans and Atlas are going to eventually dominate if gas stays nationwide at below $3/gallon on average.

An Exxon/Mobil station near us was selling 87 octane for $1.99/gallon last week. even at $0.30 more per gallon, it's very compelling to stay with an ICE vehicle.

kjclow September 4th, 2019 11:56

As we've discussed earlier, if fuel prices rise in small step increments, the public will adjust to the higher prices. It's the large spikes that cause the panic.

turbobrick240 September 4th, 2019 12:32

It's the global trends that will determine which products VW will put their developement euros into. The US isn't a huge market for VW. Europe and China are their bread and butter.

oilhammer September 4th, 2019 12:42

They excel in South America and parts of Africa, too. So much so, they build MANY models there, for there. And even a few for export.

kjclow September 5th, 2019 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5534185)
They excel in South America and parts of Africa, too. So much so, they build MANY models there, for there. And even a few for export.

I started this thread yesterday about a new Brazilian designed VW coming to market next year.

oilhammer September 5th, 2019 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow (Post 5534351)
I started this thread yesterday about a new Brazilian designed VW coming to market next year.

Yep, let's hope it is better than the last one... the Fox. Which wasn't really "awful", but it wasn't really that great either.

IndigoBlueWagon September 5th, 2019 11:59

The newer Fox was bad. But this one was nice, in a basic kind of way.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...on-630x390.jpg

oilhammer September 5th, 2019 12:42

The newer Fox was the same thing, the only difference was they gave it a minor facelift which was essentially just the flush mounted headlamps, and they went from CIS (K/KE-jet) to Digifant (VAG's watered down Motronic) and made the 5sp standard (early cars were 4sp, with the "GL5" having the optional 5th gear).

I knew those cars all too well. I owned a few, tried to buy the final two '93s remaining at our dealer in '95, dust and flat tires and all. They would not take a cash deal. They were MSRP'd at $10,500, I offered them $16k for both. Cash. They refused. Went to a different dealer and bought a new '95 Golf GL instead. Mostly out of spite.

Those same two '93 Foxes sat there at least another year, in the back of the lot, one had a window smashed. No idea what ended up happening to them. Sad, they were brand new unsold cars.

The Fox was an outdated design really even in '87 when they came out. The only thing they had going for them over similar priced cars was a bigger, better engine, and they were fuel injected. Stripper Sentras had TBI, though, and the base 323 was EFI. But the Tercel had an awful VV carb, the base Civic still had a carb, and the rest of anything in that price range was a royal piece of junk. The Fox did have the unique 2dr wagon version though, akin to similar models from earlier times from Volkswagen as well as Ford and GM. I had an '89 4dr sedan and an '88 2dr sedan. The wagon version was dropped before the facelift, though.

We did a lot of heater core recalls on them, and it seemed like the only people that bought them were the cheapest of the cheap people and they were rarely cared for properly. They were also a bit of an odd duck in that no automatic transmission option was available, and the manuals they used (both the 4 and 5) were notoriously fragile. Pretty sure they were just revamped old B1 Passat (Dasher here) gearboxes that were never really designed to handle the output of the 1.8L engine (even in its detuned form in a smaller lighter car). We had lots of relatively low mileage cars with broken transmissions towed in, which of course totaled the car. It was sort of a running contest to see who had the biggest tow in crap pile: broken Foxes, broken 096/01M cars, Suzuki [any model] with a rod hole in the block, or any number of burnt to a crisp Nissan models (fuel leaks). VW/Nissan/Suzuki dealer.

tikal September 5th, 2019 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5534398)
Yep, let's hope it is better than the last one... the Fox. Which wasn't really "awful", but it wasn't really that great either.

My previous TDI, a 2002 Golf GLS, was assembled in Curitiba, Brasil. The manual transmission came from Argentina and I believe the engine was shipped there from Germany. All in all a fairly trouble free car.

oilhammer September 5th, 2019 13:07

Yes, but that was not a "Brazilian" car, it was merely assembled there. The Fox (which was only called that here) was the Gol/Voyage/Parati model which WAS designed AND assembled in Brazil. There have been other Brazilian Volkswagens too, but the Fox was the only one we ever got aside from some Peterbilt/Kenworth branded medium duty cabover trucks which were exported to Europe and other parts of the world as the Volkswagen L80.

tikal September 5th, 2019 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5534182)
It's the global trends that will determine which products VW will put their developement euros into. The US isn't a huge market for VW. Europe and China are their bread and butter.

Correct.

If VW continues to do business in the US will be by selling more and more gasoline powered SUVs. A VW built Tiguan EV (or similar size) with minimum 250 miles of range will be at least $60K, and it will be unlikely this price will drop too much in the next few years (my prediction). With this cost you can buy an Audi Q5 (gasoline powered) right now and have money left over for a few years of scheduled maintenance and fuel.

redbarron55 September 5th, 2019 15:19

The US market has not made a profit for VW for a long while and with the EPA cheating it will be a long time before it does as well

Warthog September 12th, 2019 08:47

I REALLY want a SKODA wagon with a 6-speed Stick shift...and a diesel engine...

"She'll be driving 6 white UNICORNS when she comes" sung to "Coming 'round the mountain"...

If the EPA sticker on any car is worth anything, MY right foot can CHEAT it six ways from Sunday! Is it cheating if you KNOW how to drive??

ejallison1 September 15th, 2019 22:44

I was online looking at TDI's yesterday and was very surprised to see 2012, 2013, 2014 TDI's being sold. I was under the impression that only the 2015 models had been OK'ed to resell. Is that the case or were the ones I saw not involved with the buy back program. Seemed to be pretty low mileage. Anyone point me to an article on the changes made and what to expect as far as mileage. Thanks

IndigoBlueWagon September 16th, 2019 03:15

All TDIs from '09 and later can be fixed and re-sold. Buyback cars cannot be re-sold without being fixed. This has been going on for well over a year. There are lots of enthusiasts out there who had sold back their TDIs and now are owners again.

bhtooefr September 16th, 2019 07:53

Except for 2012-2014 manual transmission Passats. Those can't be fixed IIRC, and therefore can't be resold.

IndigoBlueWagon September 16th, 2019 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5536720)
Except for 2012-2014 manual transmission Passats. Those can't be fixed IIRC, and therefore can't be resold.

Correct, buyback NMS manual cars cannot be re-sold. Sad. But if owners kept them they can re-sell them.

vwxyzero September 16th, 2019 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejallison1 (Post 5536661)
I was online looking at TDI's yesterday and was very surprised to see 2012, 2013, 2014 TDI's being sold. I was under the impression that only the 2015 models had been OK'ed to resell. Is that the case or were the ones I saw not involved with the buy back program. Seemed to be pretty low mileage. Anyone point me to an article on the changes made and what to expect as far as mileage. Thanks

Besides the people that caved in and sold their TDIs back, some didn't; a friend of mine dug his heels in, refused to sell his 2014 Audi A3 TDI back, it took forever, but Audi/VW eventually fixed it, and it seems to run better than before Deiselgate. I'm convinced he's not the only person that refused the buyback, and he still has his, but I assume some people that stuck their ground are selling their TDIs, on the used market now. So there's probably that going on too.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

atc98002 September 16th, 2019 12:33

I wouldn't use the term "caved" for those who took the buyback. I sold my Jetta back, and was glad to be rid of it due to numerous little issues that would have cost big dollars to fix, including bodywork. My Passat, however, was a struggle, because there was nothing wrong with it. In the end it was all about the dollars. The buyback offer was just too good to pass up.

Lightflyer1 September 16th, 2019 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwxyzero (Post 5536756)
Besides the people that caved in and sold their TDIs back, some didn't; a friend of mine dug his heels in, refused to sell his 2014 Audi A3 TDI back, it took forever, but Audi/VW eventually fixed it, and it seems to run better than before Deiselgate.

No one was forced to sell their car back. VWoA was required to fix any car brought in for the fix that had a fix available. I don't know why your friend had to dig his heels in as they were required to do the fix by court order for anyone that came in with one.

vwxyzero September 17th, 2019 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5536800)
No one was forced to sell their car back. VWoA was required to fix any car brought in for the fix that had a fix available. I don't know why your friend had to dig his heels in as they were required to do the fix by court order for anyone that came in with one.

True. I didn't say anything about anyone being forced into selling their TDI back, but the incentive to so loomed large, and I remember how long he waited, how much of a PITA he thought the ordeal was in total; my only real point was in reference to the post I quoted, and that some of the people who held out might be selling now.
Did you get your New Beatle fixed too?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

vwxyzero September 17th, 2019 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5536791)
I wouldn't use the term "caved" for those who took the buyback.

Fair enough, maybe a bad choice of words; call the grammar police! Unlike your Jetta his TDI was spotless with low mileage, so for him it was worth the headaches to keep it.


Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

BeetleGo September 17th, 2019 05:51

My brother sold his 6-speed manual Passat TDI SE back to VW and picked up a cherry 6 month old Passat TSI SEL for $2500 less than VW gave him for the TDI. They don’t get the same fuel mileage and it’s somewhat louder than their TDI was, but the deal was too good to pass up. The big thing is that he is planning on buying a Tesla next. Sorry VW, you’ve lost his business. Like me he feels that Volkswagen shot themselves in the face (not just the foot) drumming up passable numbers, calling it clean, and then getting caught, which bite you back BIGTIME with people who up until late 2015 were selling TDI’s for you!

The repaired ones are only partly fixed. There are plenty of scenarios where they’re still dirty as hell.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-riva...ent-interview/

IndigoBlueWagon September 17th, 2019 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwxyzero (Post 5536909)
True. I didn't say anything about anyone being forced into selling their TDI back, but the incentive to so loomed large, and I remember how long he waited, how much of a PITA he thought the ordeal was in total; my only real point was in reference to the post I quoted, and that some of the people who held out might be selling now.
Did you get your New Beatle fixed too?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Ordeal? Windfall is probably a better description. Many owners came away from the buyback having driven a new TDI for 2 or 3 years at zero net cost to them. The buyback was incredibly generous.

atc98002 September 17th, 2019 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5536943)
Ordeal? Windfall is probably a better description. Many owners came away from the buyback having driven a new TDI for 2 or 3 years at zero net cost to them. The buyback was incredibly generous.

Exactly my situation. Just too good to pass up.

kjclow September 17th, 2019 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5536791)
I wouldn't use the term "caved" for those who took the buyback. I sold my Jetta back, and was glad to be rid of it due to numerous little issues that would have cost big dollars to fix, including bodywork. My Passat, however, was a struggle, because there was nothing wrong with it. In the end it was all about the dollars. The buyback offer was just too good to pass up.

We sold the Golf back for the same reason, the money was too good to pass up. When we talk about how the engine characteristics of the JSW have changed, we're really happy we didn't subject our Golf to that.

kjclow September 17th, 2019 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwxyzero (Post 5536756)
Besides the people that caved in and sold their TDIs back, some didn't; a friend of mine dug his heels in, refused to sell his 2014 Audi A3 TDI back, it took forever, but Audi/VW eventually fixed it, and it seems to run better than before Deiselgate. I'm convinced he's not the only person that refused the buyback, and he still has his, but I assume some people that stuck their ground are selling their TDIs, on the used market now. So there's probably that going on too.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Your friend didn't dig his heels in. He took the fix and the adjustment ($$) just like most of the rest of us did that are still driving the 09-15 diesels.

turbobrick240 September 17th, 2019 08:17

Yup. They're just cars. They make new ones every day. No mystery to me why most owners took the buyback.

oilhammer September 17th, 2019 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5536979)
Yup. They're just cars. They make new ones every day. No mystery to me why most owners took the buyback.

Well, yes they make new ones every day... but WE can no longer buy them. So....

You couldn't get me to sell any of my cars for MSRP+. Not a single one of them can be replaced with a new version of the same.

IndigoBlueWagon September 17th, 2019 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5536984)
You couldn't get me to sell any of my cars for MSRP+. Not a single one of them can be replaced with a new version of the same.

Same here. It's my way to rationalize hoarding. :D

turbobrick240 September 17th, 2019 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5536984)
Well, yes they make new ones every day... but WE can no longer buy them. So....
You couldn't get me to sell any of my cars for MSRP+. Not a single one of them can be replaced with a new version of the same.


Trust me, I've had irrational attachments (not saying yours are irrational) to my share of vehicles. Like the '84 Volvo 245 diesel decomposing in my yard. Or my first car, an '85 Volvo 244 turbo, which I finally parted with last year. But these newer cars just don't have as much soul (how's that for irrational), imo.

oilhammer September 17th, 2019 10:01

Happiness is often a difficult thing to pin down to any rationality. I know people who have no hobbies, no interest in much of anything, no interest in life. Really sad. I don't think everyone need be a "car person", but it is to me a noble hobby and isn't likely to be going anywhere any time soon.

I am currently fixing up a pair of 2.sl0 Jettas... how's THAT for irrational? :p

(this is what I do to stay busy between TDI fixer-uppers)

turbobrick240 September 17th, 2019 15:17

There's something to be said for simplicity of design. I've re-adapted rather well to the gasser powerband of my 2.5 Golf.

IndigoBlueWagon September 17th, 2019 18:16

Today I drove my GSW to work, and just went out to a meeting in my B4. So I drove the last 4 cylinder TDI VW sold here, followed by the first. Truth be told, I like the B4 better, even though it has 20x the miles on it than my GSW. A diesel the sounds and drives like a diesel is nice.

oilhammer September 18th, 2019 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5537093)
There's something to be said for simplicity of design. I've re-adapted rather well to the gasser powerband of my 2.5 Golf.

The 2.5L isn't exactly "simple" (the 4.0hr thermostat job comes to mind) although they have proven to be reasonably reliable after the first revamp around 2008. But the "powerband" as you call it is really more of a high output lump placed into a rather smallish car. So yeah, not much adjusting required, just stab it and it goes along quite nicely. It should. It makes as much horsepower as the VR6 did when it came out.

Now the old 2.0L "2.slo" engines ARE simple, and ARE easy to service. But adapting to daily driving one compared to a TDI: no thanks, no way, not even close, LOL. But they are sturdy simple and reliable, and if you need something cheap that doesn't do anything especially great but does have longevity and simplicity on its side, then they are stellar.

turbobrick240 September 18th, 2019 12:27

Compared to my commonrail tdi the 2.5 is pretty simple. No turbo, no dpf, no hpfp, and no timing belt (it's a '10, so the chain should be good for a long time). The power is there, it just doesn't come on until 4k rpm, by which point the tdi was just about done.

turbocharged798 September 18th, 2019 14:15

I find mine to be a gas sucking pig. Good luck trying to break 30 mpg with it.

atc98002 September 18th, 2019 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5537336)
I find mine to be a gas sucking pig. Good luck trying to break 30 mpg with it.

I had a Jetta rental for about 6-7 weeks two years ago. I'm pretty sure it had the 1.4T engine, although I'm not certain. I was surprised how peppy it was, and my Fuelly calculated gas mileage was 37 in mixed driving in northern Virginia. But there was no heavy, stop and go traffic with that. The worst traffic would be leaving the Vienna Metro station about 2:30PM and driving to my hotel, about 16 miles in heavy but not slow traffic. The days I went to the Command Center in Vint Hill I was opposite direction of the traffic heading to DC, so was smooth sailing both ways.

turbobrick240 September 18th, 2019 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5537336)
I find mine to be a gas sucking pig. Good luck trying to break 30 mpg with it.

I consistently get 30 mpg tanks with it. Not great, but better than a lot of vehicles I've owned. It's really just an interim vehicle until I buy something that's 80%+ efficient.

J September 20th, 2019 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5529273)
When the elctric car thing bombs (there will be a surge of interest, since the whining Euro weenies and the looney idiots in the press tell everyone that they are the future) there MIGHT be a chance to buy another diesel from someone, maybe not VW though. Too bad, since after 50+ years of involvement, I have probably bought my last ever new VW (Q7 TDI)

The thing w the evs is 50-60% of electricity is created by burning CNG. 30% is coal!! IT'S NOT ANY CLEANER TO OL MOTHER EARTH THEN A DAMN DIESEL!!

turbobrick240 September 20th, 2019 21:34

Looks like Daimler-Benz is retiring their ICE development programs.

https://www.ibtimes.com/elon-musk-pr...espect-2829924

bhtooefr September 21st, 2019 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by J (Post 5537855)
The thing w the evs is 50-60% of electricity is created by burning CNG. 30% is coal!! IT'S NOT ANY CLEANER TO OL MOTHER EARTH THEN A DAMN DIESEL!!

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/eGRID_resource_mix.png

National average is 30.4% coal, yes, but only 33.8% natural gas (and 0.6% oil, and 0.3% other fossil, for a total of 65.1% fossil-sourced. There's also 0.1% unknown source.)

In your grid region, SRVC, it's even better, at 24.9% coal, 0.2% oil, 29.5% gas, and 0.1% other fossil, for 54.7% fossil-sourced (with, again, 0.1% unknown source). The largest single fuel source on your grid is nuclear.

And, things are trending towards reduced fossil fuel usage on the grid, too.

BeetleGo September 21st, 2019 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by J (Post 5537855)
The thing w the evs is 50-60% of electricity is created by burning CNG. 30% is coal!! IT'S NOT ANY CLEANER TO OL MOTHER EARTH THEN A DAMN DIESEL!!

Now. Clearly you don’t read the papers. Renewables are ramping up fast. These numbers do NOT show that.

IndigoBlueWagon September 21st, 2019 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeetleGo (Post 5537928)
Now. Clearly you don’t read the papers. Renewables are ramping up fast. These numbers do NOT show that.

They don't show that because it's still a very small portion of power generation. What I'm surprised at is how much of the generation is nuclear. We've been through waves of renewable generation in the past, just drive to Palm Springs to see all the idle Reagan era windmills. I hope it takes hold this time but low oil prices don't bode well for renewables.

turbobrick240 September 21st, 2019 08:54

A pretty healthy portion of EV owners make use of photovoltaic and other renewable energy sources though. It has got to be very gratifying to fuel up on free sunshine every day.

flee September 21st, 2019 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5537929)
They don't show that because it's still a very small portion of power generation. What I'm surprised at is how much of the generation is nuclear. We've been through waves of renewable generation in the past, just drive to Palm Springs to see all the idle Reagan era windmills. I hope it takes hold this time but low oil prices don't bode well for renewables.

I'm sorry to see another otherwise thoughtful forum member fall for this old canard.
This windmill region has served as a proving ground of the (then) new technology for
the last 40 years.
There are many dozens of different turbine designs, many of which did not survive
the conditions in that desert and failed early or are at the end of their design life now.
Then there are the plots leased by speculators who weren't happy with the short
term profits and moved on. Wind power - all power - generation is a long game.
People see what they want to see, especially from their car windows at 80 MPH.
Next time you do this drive, why not pull off and take a dune buggy tour through the
area and learn first hand the history of this region and the many ongoing stories of
people, companies and, yes, government departments that are actually making a
difference for the 'generations' coming after us.
Or just repeat the same nonsense that the anti-renewable interests keep spewing.

turbobrick240 September 21st, 2019 10:59

Yeah, I would expect Reagan era wind turbines to be idle (or scrapped). I believe the typical design life is 20-25 years.

IndigoBlueWagon September 21st, 2019 12:37

I know there are windmills that are producing power. But both prior posts acknowledge that there are obsolete or abandoned windmills there. That's all I was saying. It's a great location for wind farms, but I wonder what percentage of the windmills there are actually productive.

aja8888 September 21st, 2019 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5537990)
I know there are windmills that are producing power. But both prior posts acknowledge that there are obsolete or abandoned windmills there. That's all I was saying. It's a great location for wind farms, but I wonder what percentage of the windmills there are actually productive.

I wonder how many of them are ready to come down and enter the scrap pile. Maybe that steel can be recycled into base material again, however, that would take costly manpower, equipment and more energy use.

atc98002 September 21st, 2019 13:51

On that chart it's nice to see that here in the Pac NW we still have almost 50% hydro power. The way the environmentalists have been lambasting hydro dams I wasn't sure our level was still as high as that. And the 22% coal is going to be gone I believe within 5 years. Add to that our relatively low electric rates, and you can see why my PHEV is so cost effective. Its cost per mile is better than my Passat TDI was, and if fuel prices start rising (a distinct possibility with the situation in the middle east) it's even better.

That said, I'm considering the possibility of teleworking more extensively, and moving further away from my office. I work with someone who lives in Spokane (eastern edge of WA) and files into Seattle one day a week, stays at a hotel for one night, then flies home after working the next day. He says it's cheaper than maintaining an apartment near work and driving home each weekend. But that's a 5+ hour drive under no-traffic or weather conditions. I'm looking at a town about 100 miles away from the office, and just driving across the mountains once a week (or once every two weeks if possible), unless the pass is closed for snow. For that trip I'd find a Golf or Jetta TDI. Driving my PHEV would cost just as little as a diesel (it gets about 60 MPG on engine power) but would rack up miles on a leased vehicle. Shoot, I'd even go with an older IDI diesel for a drive like that. But since I'd like heated seats and A/C, that more than likely means something new enough to be a TDI.

flee September 21st, 2019 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5537990)
I know there are windmills that are producing power. But both prior posts acknowledge that there are obsolete or abandoned windmills there. That's all I was saying. It's a great location for wind farms, but I wonder what percentage of the windmills there are actually productive.

I wondered the same thing and I was surprised that in 2018 more than 30% of all CA
electrical generation was from renewable sources - more than triple nuclear.
The San Gorgonio region (Palm Springs) obviously is a contributing factor to this.
In the US as a whole, in 2018 the percentage was 17.1% electrical from renewables.
Nuclear energy in the whole US for 2018 was 19.3% by comparison.
For 2019 those figures may well be reversed.
Your original post refers to renewable power as 'a very small portion of power generation'.
In the same post you express surprise of how much energy is produced by nuclear.
This is what I meant when I said you see what you want to see.

IndigoBlueWagon September 21st, 2019 15:21

My surprise regarding Nuclear is because I believe there are either 1 or 2 operating plants in New England. They've closed Vermont Yankee, Pilgrim (near me) in recent years. Of course no new plants are coming online.

And I'd suggest we all see what we want to see regarding renewables. I suspect that 17.1% number. I suppose it could be true, but I'm wonder how much of it is actually used and not shed. I know, for example, transmission over distances from windmills is a challenge.

And don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of renewables. I've generated all my household electric with solar panels for the past 6 years.

bhtooefr September 21st, 2019 18:06

eGRID covers what actually made it out to the grid as I understand, not installed capacity. So, those figures are including the effects of curtailment.

flee September 21st, 2019 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5538033)
My surprise regarding Nuclear is because I believe there are either 1 or 2 operating plants in New England. They've closed Vermont Yankee, Pilgrim (near me) in recent years. Of course no new plants are coming online.
And I'd suggest we all see what we want to see regarding renewables. I suspect that 17.1% number. I suppose it could be true, but I'm wonder how much of it is actually used and not shed. I know, for example, transmission over distances from windmills is a challenge.
And don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of renewables. I've generated all my household electric with solar panels for the past 6 years.

You suspect the published and reviewed data based on what? It doesn't feel right?
Is transmission for nuclear or petro based electrical somehow not a challenge?
Reactors as well as petro power plants have location-based issues due to their need
for fuel transport and storage, cooling requirements and the smokestack emissions.

Look, while we mess around with old cars and get older ourselves,
the world goes on toward increasing the renewable energy baseline every day.
The best news that nobody knows is that solar and wind energy are now cheaper than
nuclear energy and will continue to increase its contribution while nuclear is allowed to
fade into a well deserved obscurity.

IndigoBlueWagon September 21st, 2019 19:15

Yes, it didn't "feel" right. And now I know why. Very little searching shows that 43% of that 17.1% is hydro. And only 6% of that 17% is solar. That "feels" right to me. I know that hydro is renewable (duh), but we were talking about windmills, not dams.

Hydro and windmills have location-based issues, too. Windmill towers tall enough to get above the trees are prohibited in most towns where I live. And some towns are considering banning free standing solar arrays. It's all about aesthetics, and some of the odd (in my opinion) concerns about windmills. And I'm sure you're aware of people's ecological concerns regarding dams and hydro plants.

Given the little I understand about wind generated power, putting the supply as close as possible to the point of consumption seems to make sense. I would love to have a windmill to compliment the solar array at my house. Not gonna happen in this town.

Here's an example of why I suspected the number. I was in LA visiting family weekend before last. My brother-in-law has a solar array on his house. He didn't install the array, he bought the house with it less than a year ago. As far as he knows his utility doesn't offer net metering. And he's typically not home during peak generation periods. So a lot of what the panels generate isn't consumed as far as I could tell. So how is the output of his system calculated for statistical purposes? By the size of the array? By its actual input into the grid? I just wonder.

flee September 21st, 2019 19:34

Currently in the US wind energy use is about 6 times solar energy use.
In fact, wind energy in the US for 2018 was about equal to hydropower.
Since hydropower is slow to increase compared to wind power, wind is likely ahead by now.
That's a lot of windmills somewhere. Not seeing them doesn't mean they don't exist.
As time marches on solar will probably win out, though, because it is easier to de-centralize.

bhtooefr September 21st, 2019 19:49

If the home has a smart meter, even if the utility doesn't offer net metering billing, they may be able to account for the power supplied to the grid at that point.

In any case, with wind, you generally want as large of turbines as material science makes practical, and mount them as high as you can, to capture as much wind energy as possible. That generally encourages large farms of turbines, and then distribution from there. Wind can be absolutely ridiculously large scale if you get into flatlands, or near hilltops in rolling terrain.

turbobrick240 September 21st, 2019 20:27

The size of industrial scale wind turbines has grown enormously since the 80's. I frequently see individual turbine blades getting transported on massive semi trailers, and they are gargantuan.

Mythdoc September 22nd, 2019 06:12

Recent article I read said the salmon and trout populations in the Columbia river system are near the point of critical failure. Orcas that are sustained by those species are near critical failure. The fish ladders in the dams don’t work that well. Where I live, about 10 years ago, one of TVA’s coal slurry ponds broke its banks and created a miles-long swath where nothing lived.

Meanwhile, utility companies coast to coast are bankrolling legislators to make it illegal (or prohibitively expensive) to sell your solar generated power to a willing buyer.

scooperhsd September 22nd, 2019 12:51

If you want to see massive windfarms - take a drive on I70 In Western Kansas. I swear - there must at least 1000 of them . And they are TALL - with those turbine blades that need to be transported by oversized loads semi-trailers .


Now, not every area is blessed with such winds, but where it is possible....

truman September 22nd, 2019 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooperhsd (Post 5538185)
If you want to see massive windfarms - take a drive on I70 In Western Kansas. I swear - there must at least 1000 of them . And they are TALL - with those turbine blades that need to be transported by oversized loads semi-trailers .


Now, not every area is blessed with such winds, but where it is possible....

Suspect way more than a 1000
Blight on flyover country

atc98002 September 22nd, 2019 13:41

At the risk of derailing the thread even more...:D

The FAA has a problem with these wind farms if they are too close to one of our radar sites. They can really wreck havoc with the data return, and of course that's unacceptable. As we move to ADS-B, with less reliance on radar for aircraft separation, this will of course become less of an issue. Because they are so tall, that gives the FAA the authority to approve or deny an application. Anything more than 200' AGL, and it doesn't have to be close to an airport. Of course, if you are close to an airport, the requirements are even stricter.

kjclow September 23rd, 2019 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5537929)
They don't show that because it's still a very small portion of power generation. What I'm surprised at is how much of the generation is nuclear. We've been through waves of renewable generation in the past, just drive to Palm Springs to see all the idle Reagan era windmills. I hope it takes hold this time but low oil prices don't bode well for renewables.

I'm not surprised by the high number for nuclear energy in VA and the Carolinas. In Charlotte, we have two nuclear reactors, one coal plant, and three back-up hydros.

kjclow September 23rd, 2019 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooperhsd (Post 5538185)
If you want to see massive windfarms - take a drive on I70 In Western Kansas. I swear - there must at least 1000 of them . And they are TALL - with those turbine blades that need to be transported by oversized loads semi-trailers .


Now, not every area is blessed with such winds, but where it is possible....

The wind farms are also spreading all over Iowa. Wind has been used for centuries on a smaller scale. Most farmsteads in the Midwest and Plains states have one for pumping water and sometimes for power things like hay conveyors. Iowa has passed a law restricting how close to a house a wind turbine can be located. I guess it's a safety issue if the turbine explodes.

Rob Mayercik September 23rd, 2019 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by flee (Post 5538070)
The best news that nobody knows is that solar and wind energy are now cheaper than nuclear energy and will continue to increase its contribution while nuclear is allowed to fade into a well deserved obscurity.

You know, I really don't get the massive hate-on most folks have for nuclear. While I do agree that nuclear fission (at least, in the very old designs we use now) tends to cause a lot of very undesirable issues, I also think all that anti-nuclear aggression is stifling the research that would help get us to more "recent" designs (breeder reactors, molten-salt thorium setups, etc.) that produce far less toxic residues, and even further down the road to the good stuff - fusion.

Everyone wants the phone that does it all, all-electric transportation, and all that other whiz-bang stuff that's right out of the pages of science fiction.

Well, guess what? All that stuff in the sci-fi books is running on Nuclear Fusion (at least, the stuff on the planets - seems like the general consensus in sci-fi is that antimatter it a bit too "touchy" for use ground-side). Considering the sun's just a big fusion reactor, one could technically argue that ALL energy on earth is all powered by the "side effects" of nuclear fusion (I'd imagine that'd get an anti-nuclear zealot's knickers in a real twist, if you present it right...)

You want all the fancy sci-fi tech gizmos? You need the fancy sci-fi power source (fusion) to drive it.

turbobrick240 September 23rd, 2019 10:48

I don't think the backlash from meltdowns like those at Fukushima and Chernobyl has had any meaningful impact on research into nuclear fusion as an energy source (other than the sun). It certainly hasn't helped with the popularity of nuclear fission reactors. Bottom line is nuclear is incredibly expensive- much, much moreso than wind and solar.

nwdiver September 23rd, 2019 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Mayercik (Post 5538386)
You want all the fancy sci-fi tech gizmos? You need the fancy sci-fi power source (fusion) to drive it.

I do use fusion. I just use the one that's provided free in the sky...

Rob Mayercik September 23rd, 2019 15:03

See? The right people will get it...

turbocharged798 September 24th, 2019 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5538443)
I do use fusion. I just use the one that's provided free in the sky...

Too bad it only works half the time.

jackbombay September 24th, 2019 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5538561)
Too bad it only works half the time.

The sun never actually turns off.

Also, you can have "solar power" 24 hours a day, when the sun is out, you use solar power to pump water uphill, at night that water is sent through a turbine to make power.

nwdiver September 24th, 2019 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbocharged798 (Post 5538561)
Too bad it only works half the time.

Good thing we know how to store energy. And if we need to store it for more than a few weeks we can always split water.

turbobrick240 September 26th, 2019 20:31

VW's CEO, Herbert Diess has some rough sailing ahead, with criminal charges filed against him in Germany. He seems to be trying very hard to modernize VW, it would be a shame if he was removed from his position.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...29894?mode=amp

BeetleGo September 27th, 2019 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5539300)
VW's CEO, Herbert Diess has some rough sailing ahead, with criminal charges filed against him in Germany. He seems to be trying very hard to modernize VW, it would be a shame if he was removed from his position.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...29894?mode=amp

German cars, inc. is starting to look like America car, inc. in the 70’s.... Pintos that went bang, Olds diesels in everything that went nowhere, Caddy 8,6,4, etc.

bhtooefr September 27th, 2019 10:44

I've been calling Volkswagen "Allgemeine Motoren" for a while now...

Mythdoc September 27th, 2019 12:00

Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: ‘Now it is absolutely clean’
 
Pötsch, Porsche, Piëch, all pollütsche, no?

Powder Hound September 28th, 2019 04:05

Considering the weight thrown around by bean counters in a supposedly engineering driven german firm like VW, it seems to me that CFO Potsch bears a much higher burden of responsibility for the entire debacle than his lawyers are claiming.

Cheers,

PH

TDI2000Zim October 8th, 2019 05:56

So, is VW ever bringing back any diesel cars to Amerika?

atc98002 October 8th, 2019 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDI2000Zim (Post 5542037)
So, is VW ever bringing back any diesel cars to Amerika?

Highly unlikely. The state and federal governments have cast it in such a bad light, there are many who might have considered it in the past will now shy away. There are of course a number of past and current diesel owners that understand the nonsense that swirls around, but I doubt there's enough of us to make a large enough market for one. Like it or not, the US is moving to electrification. In some ways it's good, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are still many valid use cases for diesel, and not just long distance trucking.


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