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turbobrick240 August 22nd, 2019 07:48

The battery tech is advancing at an incredible pace. It wasn't very long ago that my cordless tools all had bulky, heavy NiCad batteries for instance. I agree that efficient vehicles can be somewhat of a tough sell when fuel at the pumps is so cheap. A carbon tax could help level the playing field.

jackbombay August 22nd, 2019 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531111)
My point? Most of these cars (and trucks) sell well, indicating that this kind of FE is totally acceptable in the current environment.

And for those vehicle purchasers "Totally acceptable" is based largely on their willingness to pay the fuel bill, there is zero inherent correlation between "Sells well" and "environmentally friendly".

BeetleGo August 22nd, 2019 08:55

Maxwell batteries. :cool:

vwxyzero August 22nd, 2019 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeetleGo (Post 5531146)
Maxwell batteries. :cool:

Smart battery management is already here. [emoji41]



Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

oilhammer August 22nd, 2019 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531111)
We've been hearing that for a long, long time. Just saying.
I was reading the current Car & Driver last night and observed that of all the vehicles tested (Mercedes AMG, new Explorer ST, Silverado Diesel, Land Rover Evoque, Mercedes GL, Porsche 911) got actual FE right around 20 MPG. In a recent comparison test of mid-sized SUVS (BMW X5, Audi Q7, Mercedes GLE), and they all got FE in the low teens in their test.
My point? Most of these cars (and trucks) sell well, indicating that this kind of FE is totally acceptable in the current environment. Not to people here, but we're not the mainstream. This is why diesels and EVs have an uphill battle.


This has always been my observation, too. Going from mostly 35 MPG cars to 50 MPG cars and/or EVs isn't a huge step. But we (Americans at large, not necessarily present company) are just fine with 15 MPG. And I tell you first hand, since we (our shop) run a small used car finder/broker deal (boss' extra little deal) and the number of pump suckers people ask about and buy is astounding. Also, stuff that you really wouldn't think would be so thirsty, is... like an AWD CRV (automatic, of course). Down into the teens around town. That is nuts.

kjclow August 22nd, 2019 10:05

That was part of the reason we traded our 07 or 08 CR-V for the Golf. It wasn't AWD but still got mid to upper teens around town.

IndigoBlueWagon August 22nd, 2019 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5531162)
Also, stuff that you really wouldn't think would be so thirsty, is... like an AWD CRV (automatic, of course). Down into the teens around town. That is nuts.

One of the cars I mentioned is the BMW X2. Truly a small car, reviewers have described it as being like a tall GTI. But weighing 3,800 lbs, 20" wheels, and getting 300 HP from a 2 liter engine takes its toll. 20 MPG, on 93 octane.

Friend of mine's wife drives a Mini Clubman. Automatic, AWD. 16 MPG in town. :eek:

jackbombay August 22nd, 2019 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531174)
Mini Clubman. Automatic, AWD. 16 MPG in town. :eek:

That is essentially a mobile heat generator that produces movement as an accidental byproduct.

Matt-98AHU August 22nd, 2019 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531111)
We've been hearing that for a long, long time. Just saying.
I was reading the current Car & Driver last night and observed that of all the vehicles tested (Mercedes AMG, new Explorer ST, Silverado Diesel, Land Rover Evoque, Mercedes GL, Porsche 911) got actual FE right around 20 MPG. In a recent comparison test of mid-sized SUVS (BMW X5, Audi Q7, Mercedes GLE), and they all got FE in the low teens in their test.
My point? Most of these cars (and trucks) sell well, indicating that this kind of FE is totally acceptable in the current environment. Not to people here, but we're not the mainstream. This is why diesels and EVs have an uphill battle.

Very true. The only time they started to decline was when fuel prices remained high for awhile... Prices have been just low enough for long enough that people can seemingly justify the poor fuel economy again so they can have their large trucks and SUVs. That and credit has once again become easy to come by and the economy isn't in total shambles.

What EV does have going for it is the lack of maintenance. If they can get more range and much faster recharge times or otherwise make EVs more convenient and affordable, the lack of maintenance costs could push a number of people towards favoring them a lot like how Japanese cars first became popular in the U.S., partly for fuel economy but also due to the reputation for reliability and longevity.

Once there's a tipping point and a wide availability of good EVs on the used market along with the convenience factor being addressed, we may very well start to see a shift that favors EVs en masse.

When that might happen is a big guessing game, could be another decade. Of course if most governments have their way, no one would be able to buy an internal combustion anything after 2030 or so...

casioqv August 22nd, 2019 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU (Post 5531207)
What EV does have going for it is the lack of maintenance.


After driving around an EV for a while you notice that ICE cars are a big pile of seething greasy metal rapidly grinding themselves to dust. It's amazing how far they've come in terms of maintenance and reliability but they're still a huge pain for people that just want to get to work.

IndigoBlueWagon August 22nd, 2019 13:37

That's a bit of an overstatement. I own several cars that are more than 15 years old, and two that are well over 20 years old. They all work fine. And EVs, by definition, are unlikely to ever accumulate the miles that an ICE car will.

I'll preempt you mentioning the Tesloop cars, those are an exception. And back in the 90s if you talked to black car drivers in NYC, the Lincoln Town Cars they drove lasted really well, many to over 400K miles. Biggest single reason is they were never stationary.

turbobrick240 August 22nd, 2019 14:40

Taxi miles are hard miles on vehicles. The ford panther just happens to be an extremely robust platform. The NYC prius taxi fleets do quite well too. The Tesloop cars have gotten the EV torture test of all supercharger charging. That sort of punishing charging arrangement is very much out of the norm.

IndigoBlueWagon August 22nd, 2019 14:46

Actually, what I've read is the charging regime they used for the Tesloop cars was gentle on battery life. Rarely fully depleted, rarely fully charged. My daughter lived in San Diego for a year and was a big Tesloop user between SD and LA. Used to buy tickets on Groupon for cheap.

turbobrick240 August 22nd, 2019 17:38

I would hope they were rarely fully depleted! I would not be impressed if the driver told me I had to get out and walk. Most EV owners know to keep the state of charge between 20-80% as much as practicable. There's a couple views on how damaging it is to rely solely on superchargers for power, but I would avoid it.

jackbombay August 22nd, 2019 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531220)
I'll preempt you mentioning the Tesloop cars, those are an exception.

Why are the high mileage Tesloop cars not to be considered in a discussion about vehicle longevity?

oilhammer August 23rd, 2019 03:34

I maintain a certain Jetta TDI that has over 400k miles, and I would argue not only has it held up FAR better than any Panther Ford in that time period, it has done so with using about a third the fuel.

Most all the old cabs have had engines, transmissions, rear ends, and countless steering and suspension components replaced. Not to mentions PILES of brakes. Dozenspeed's Jetta has needed none of that. And that car STILL feels solid.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/5630/medium/decosign.jpg

But he clearly doesn't neglect nor abuse that car either. ;)

turbobrick240 August 23rd, 2019 04:21

Well, good maintenance does wonders for a vehicle. Like Irv Gordon's 5? million mile Volvo. There's nothing magical about that car, though it is very cool. He just followed the factory service schedule and otherwise took exceptionally good care of it.

redbarron55 August 23rd, 2019 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5531351)
Well, good maintenance does wonders for a vehicle. Like Irv Gordon's 5? million mile Volvo. There's nothing magical about that car, though it is very cool. He just followed the factory service schedule and otherwise took exceptionally good care of it.

As Volvo helped pick up the tab for the work that helps as well.
If you read the instruction manual for the Volvo, decarburizing the cylinder head a every year or so and inspecting the bearings and replacing as necessary helps. If you follow the manual you will overhaul the car every few years.
I helped a friend work on his Volvo back in the 70's and in his case his wore out the oil pump shaft!
A car will run as long as you are willing an able to fix it as the Cubans have proven for 60 years.

Lightflyer1 August 23rd, 2019 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwxyzero (Post 5530715)
Like the kids would say 'pics or it didn't happen'

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Look here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...35#post5400288

oilhammer August 23rd, 2019 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbarron55 (Post 5531376)
A car will run as long as you are willing an able to fix it as the Cubans have proven for 60 years.

... or repower it with a newer diesel engine. :D (seriously, loads of "classic" American cars down there are little more than bondo laden shells atop recycled Japanese diesel pickup powertrains... ever see the show Cuban Chrome?)

showdown 42 August 23rd, 2019 07:33

Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??

For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.

IndigoBlueWagon August 23rd, 2019 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531329)
Why are the high mileage Tesloop cars not to be considered in a discussion about vehicle longevity?

Because it's highly unlikely an individual owner would accumulate miles that fast, and under those more-or-less ideal conditions. Mild climate, good roads, easy access to charging stations allowing charging at times that optimizes battery life.

turbobrick240 August 23rd, 2019 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbarron55 (Post 5531376)
As Volvo helped pick up the tab for the work that helps as well.
If you read the instruction manual for the Volvo, decarburizing the cylinder head a every year or so and inspecting the bearings and replacing as necessary helps. If you follow the manual you will overhaul the car every few years.
I helped a friend work on his Volvo back in the 70's and in his case his wore out the oil pump shaft!
A car will run as long as you are willing an able to fix it as the Cubans have proven for 60 years.

Huh, I never heard that Volvo picked up part of his maintenance costs. I do know they gave him a new Volvo at every 1 million miles- 3.2 million btw. Makes sense though I guess.
https://www.indystar.com/story/money...volvo/2908911/

turbobrick240 August 23rd, 2019 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by showdown 42 (Post 5531392)
Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??
For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.

First it gets a secondary life as grid storage. Then they get recycled. No big deal. Those lead acid battery recyclers are often a nightmare ecologically, btw. Though a heavily concentrated area of lead pollution has got to be better than moderate lead pollution everywhere.

casioqv August 23rd, 2019 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5531351)
Like Irv Gordon's 5? million mile Volvo. There's nothing magical about that car, though it is very cool.


I googled Irv to check how many he's up to now and found out he passed away last year :(



I do think the Volvo 1800 was built with unparalleled quality... and it didn't have the concessions to safety over durability later Volvos had (e.g. making the interior soft instead of tough). True, any Ship of Theseus will last forever if you just replace things as they break, but from what I've heard Irv's car actually had surprisingly little replaced or repaired.

oilhammer August 23rd, 2019 09:20

Well the older cars like that P1800 didn't HAVE a lot of stuff to repair or replace. That helps. We have several farm tractors from the early fifties, the first of the post-war new stuff, and they were, and still are, extremely good reliable and functional machines.

IndigoBlueWagon August 23rd, 2019 09:21

Volvos of that era weren't anything special. I owned a 122, good friend had an P544. Drove a few used 1800s as I always like the car. The 1800, like a lot of low volume cars of that era (think Karmann Ghia) were rust nightmares. Volvo's engines of that era closely resembled BMC engines (MGB), including oil leaks, consumption, and SU carbs that needed frequent maintenance. Electrical systems weren't that great, either. They were simple, however, and easy to fix. And my '67 122 had rear disc brakes and shoulder seat belts. Ahead of its time.

Jay Leno did a video of the P1800 that was used in the TV show "The Saint", starring Roger Moore. It was very rusty when it was restored, and that car lived in the UK where it doesn't snow.

jackbombay August 23rd, 2019 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531400)
Because it's highly unlikely an individual owner would accumulate miles that fast, and under those more-or-less ideal conditions. Mild climate, good roads, easy access to charging stations allowing charging at times that optimizes battery life.

Conditions were far from ideal, most of the charging on the high mileage tesloop cars was done at "super charger" stations that are bad for the battery, use of the super chargers is supposed to be limited to long trips when "you have to charge quickly". The 450,000 mile tesloop car was supercharged regularly. That car did have the battery replaced twice.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/350883...-450000-miles/

Remember when the guy here with the user name 5King was stacking miles on his new ALH at an absurd rate? As a Medical courier? He hit 400,000 in a very short time, nobody here was saying his high mileage numbers should be excluded from consideration due to the rate at which they were accumulated.

casioqv August 23rd, 2019 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5531423)
Well the older cars like that P1800 didn't HAVE a lot of stuff to repair or replace. That helps. We have several farm tractors from the early fifties, the first of the post-war new stuff, and they were, and still are, extremely good reliable and functional machines.


Please excuse me for waxing philosophical for a moment.

Simplicity is immortality... simple systems cannot age. Aging emerges from complexity.

Simple physical matter- a single atom for example, does not age. An atom can fail for sure (e.g. atomic decay) but the probability of failure per time is constant, it doesn't increase as things get older.

So then why do vehicles and people age, when we're just made up of a lot of atoms?

Because they are complex systems made of individual ageless components... however they are robust to just a few isolated failures. Ageless components do fail, they just are no more likely to fail when older vs when new. But complex systems over time accumulate failures, and therefore gradually become worse.

Simple systems cannot accumulate failures- when a single part fails they immediately stop working, and when fixed they have identical reliability as when new.

An example:
If you look at something outrageously complex like a Mercedes Benz HVAC system, it exhibits horrible aging. It will work, but worse and worse as small parts of it fail over time. Take a base model MKIV climate control system in comparison- if one part fails it doesn't work anymore. Parts break, but the system never ages... it will go just as long between failures in a 700k mile car as a 7k mile car.

Humans age in the same way, and actually enter an ageless period when old, where our body has failed to the point that it lacks normal levels of redundancy and complexity. At that point, our chance of death is high, but no longer increases over time. Each year you live, you are just as likely to live another year (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11742523).


In places like Cuba and countries that are not wealthy enough to afford new cars, all of them operate in late life ageless phase. Once complex luxury cars can become ageless when everything fails except the last individual parts essential to make the car move.

IndigoBlueWagon August 23rd, 2019 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531434)
Remember when the guy here with the user name 5King was stacking miles on his new ALH at an absurd rate? As a Medical courier? He hit 400,000 in a very short time, nobody here was saying his high mileage numbers should be excluded from consideration due to the rate at which they were accumulated.

No, but his repair history should be excluded. He didn't replace dampers or brakes until he had over 400K on the car. I sold them to him. I asked how he got brakes to last so long, and he said he drove the same route every day, very light traffic, and he got so he could exit the highway, turn into the parking lot, and use is brakes only to stop when he was down to parking lot speed. And because Texas roads are pretty smooth and he didn't carry much, the dampers lasted far longer than normal. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

oilhammer August 23rd, 2019 10:23

There is a time vs. distance thing to take into consideration, too. Since "most" TDIs purchased new, or even used, had fuel economy as a very high consideration to the buyer, one assumes that they piled on a lot of miles in a relatively short period of time. Which, in most cases, means a lot of highway miles which are generally far easier on any car.

So, two identical cars, one driven 5k miles a year, the other driven 25k miles a year, after 10 years may not really look or feel much different than each other assuming both were cared for the same. Subtle things like wear patterns on pedals, shift knobs, steering wheels, etc. can give a clue as to more miles sometimes. But it usually isn't something drastic.

And I am in and out of some pretty TRASHED cars that often do not have [to me] that many miles on them. People can be destructive pigs sometimes. Other cars are like museum pieces.

redbarron55 August 23rd, 2019 11:31

I always felt that a high mileage car (say 100 K) that was driven highway miles was and had mostly driver seat wear was a good prospect to make a good second hand car.
Especially one that has a regular service history with the dealer (maybe good, maybe bad).
I just bought a 2012 Touareg TDI Executive with 96 K miles that was bought back and sat at the manufacturer's storage lot for a while. Regular service from Jim Ellis VW in Atlanta where there is little or no salt and was sold twice as a CPO used car by Ellis.
I think got a good deal and now to hope that the engine timing chains last...
Basically I believe in benign neglect and not starting new problems for no good reason.
That does not include oil changes etc

atc98002 August 23rd, 2019 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by showdown 42 (Post 5531392)
Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??

For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.

I don't know if it's federally mandated, but it seems that most if not all EV batteries have a pretty reasonable battery capacity warranty. Kia is 7 year/100,000 miles to retain at least 70% capacity. I believe VW is going to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty for 70%. Not counting the Leaf, with it's less than ideal battery cooling system, many other hybrids and EVs have reached substantial mileage on their original batteries. Tesla data shows that even after 140,000 miles most batteries are still at 90% capacity or better. It appears that an EV with proper battery cooling will not have a battery issues for the expected life of the car.

As to recycling, as already mentioned an EV battery can continue to function as local storage for a solar panel installation for many more years. There are also businesses ramping up lithium-ion recycling, as the minerals in the battery are worth enough to recycle.

But I said earlier, EV automobiles won't be completely replacing ICE vehicles for quite some time. I see both working side by side for many years, each doing what it does best. Would I buy another TDI? Yes I believe I would. Would I buy an EV in the future? I'm pretty sure that answer is yes as well. I personally have no conflict between the two. :)

flee August 23rd, 2019 22:30

We are into year 12 of owning an Escape hybrid, currently at 221,000 miles.
Not a real EV but it has AWD and I still get 26 mpg which is down from 29 originally.
This seems to indicate both the longevity of the battery tech and the ability of an
SUV, while compact, to deliver good economy over a long service life IMO.

All that being said, I would still be driving my '02 TDI but my 21 year old daughter is
the best fit for that vehicle insurance-wise.;)

El Dobro August 24th, 2019 02:51

There's a 2012 Volt named Sparkie that the original owner got up to 477,625 miles before it developed a problem. He sold it to a shop, which found the problem, repaired it and plans to continue driving it. They tested the battery and found it degraded only 20% after all that use.

Tdijarhead August 24th, 2019 04:10

I just went to the fuel station and filled my golf 796 miles and the fuel light wasn’t on...had to have been close. I’ve had several (5-6 )800+ mile tanks since I’ve owned my golf. I fill the tank completely, the vent has been removed.

I love getting the most miles per fill up on this car. Which brings me to a question.

From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Because if I am, that would mean that under normal circumstances an electric car with a factory range of 300 miles would have an effective operating range of 180 miles without recharge. Between the low 20% (60 miles) and the high 80% (240 miles).

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “, which I never seem to have gotten in my golf. I would never even consider going to the fuel station at just below 1/4 tank and only filling to just over 3/4 that’s just silly.

I must not be understanding something in this whole equation. Oh and nwdiver don’t bother answering me, you’re on my ignore list, whatever you post I can’t see and have no intention of even trying to look.

vwxyzero August 24th, 2019 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5531379)

Thanks! That's a beauty! I'll comment on the other end of that link when I get some extra time.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon August 24th, 2019 05:54

Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time. Not really accurate as EV ranges have increased, but it's not that far off.

There are a lot of things I like about my MKIV TDI, but near the top of the list is the range between fills. Once you get used to 700+ miles on every fill, with some over 800, it's hard to go back to even the 500 per tank my GSW delivers. I would not enjoy recharging every 200 or so miles. And before someone posts "just plug it in at night," I have a 275 gallon over the road diesel tank with a pump at my house. So I can refill at home...in 5 min or less.

jackbombay August 24th, 2019 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
From what Iím reading ďfilling upĒ an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, Iím not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and Iím never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

You're not understanding it correctly, nobody is trying to mislead you.

300 miles of range means you can drive it 300 miles, the car will limit charging to %80 and stop moving when you hit %20, with that %60 of the batteries maximum capacity the car can go 300 miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get ďrange anxiety ď...

You think EV owners get range anxiety bad? My buddy has a Toyota Landcruiser, 1984 model, he gets 12 MPG, he has to fill up at 160 miles! HE ran out of gas in Nevada, he got 4 gallons, he had to go 50 miles to get to the next gas station, on 4 gallons, he ran out as he pulled into the gas station...

jackbombay August 24th, 2019 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531646)
Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time.

If your daily driving is only 50 miles I see no issue, some people might let a fuel light control their emotions, but I know my car will go 100+ miles once the fuel light has come on so if I'm only driving 50 miles there is no reason to care about the fuel light.

atc98002 August 24th, 2019 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
From what Iím reading ďfilling upĒ an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, Iím not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and Iím never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Nah, not quite accurate. For best longevity, it's best to keep a battery between 20-80%, but it's not required, and many EV owners charge to 100% all the time with no significant impact on battery life. I believe it's more important to not drop below 20% too often, but that's really more in line with how I treat my gas tank anyway. Also, most EVs have artificial limits to the minimum and maximum charge limits. What they list as a 64 kW battery is restricted to a usable amount of perhaps 56-58 kW. The rest is used as a buffer at the top and bottom of the charging limits. Again, to provide better long term battery life.

bizzle August 24th, 2019 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5531630)
I just went to the fuel station and filled my golf 796 miles and the fuel light wasn’t on...had to have been close. I’ve had several (5-6 )800+ mile tanks since I’ve owned my golf. I fill the tank completely, the vent has been removed.

I love getting the most miles per fill up on this car. Which brings me to a question.

From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Because if I am, that would mean that under normal circumstances an electric car with a factory range of 300 miles would have an effective operating range of 180 miles without recharge. Between the low 20% (60 miles) and the high 80% (240 miles).

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “, which I never seem to have gotten in my golf. I would never even consider going to the fuel station at just below 1/4 tank and only filling to just over 3/4 that’s just silly.

I must not be understanding something in this whole equation. Oh and nwdiver don’t bother answering me, you’re on my ignore list, whatever you post I can’t see and have no intention of even trying to look.

People are simply repeating what they've read from 20 years ago. The general rule you are citing is still accurate, but the end-user doesn't have to worry about it. Do you remember charging single cell rechargeables decades ago? Both the batteries and the chargers were dumb so the user had to monitor the charging cycles. Now you can still find dumb batteries but you'll be hard pressed to find a charger that isn't smart in some way--monitoring the battery condition as well as leveling it when necessary. As the technology improved, and became more dangerous, the battery packs themselves became smarter (compare the battery packs for any major cordless tool company) where one can't realistically charge a cell individually. Those packs, like all of the battery packs in any of the EVs we're discussing, have monitoring and stabilizing coding that the electricity has to flow through in order to charge them. They aren't raw cells that the end-user has to think about conditioning. When people only charge their batteries up to 80% on the dash the battery pack itself isn't at 80%. Similarly, when a driver is seeing 0% on the dash, there's still a bit of hidden capacity for emergency (in the eGolf this was called "Turtle" mode where everything would shut off and the motors would creep along at about 5mph for another couple miles so a driver could at least get off the main road and possibly make it to park and charge) and even then there's at least 20% more that the end-user will never see.

Batteries benefit from not being deep discharged or fully charged and the 20/80 just seems to be where the best efficiency curve is but that doesn't mean they don't also benefit from just keeping them at right around 50% charge at all times, which is what people manually limiting their charge cycles to 20/80 on the dash are doing. It's the same with mobile phones or any consumer device. End-users can't normally deplete batteries below the 20% threshold regardless of what the charge indicator is showing. This is especially true with Li-based batteries because they will literally explode when they become destabilized.

In comparison to liquid fuel based vehicles, I've been driving European imports for the last 30 years and it's always been my understanding to fuel them up before they drop much below 1/4 tank (or 1/8 tank, whatever...point being not to drive them to empty like you seem to be doing).

IndigoBlueWagon August 24th, 2019 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bizzle (Post 5531690)
In comparison to liquid fuel based vehicles, I've been driving European imports for the last 30 years and it's always been my understanding to fuel them up before they drop much below 1/4 tank (or 1/8 tank, whatever...point being not to drive them to empty like you seem to be doing).

What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D

When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.

bizzle August 24th, 2019 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531697)
Funny how you feel the need to educate us on battery technology, and then you repeat a non-fact based guideline from 20 years ago. What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D
When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.

I never said that running out of fuel makes a TDI hard to start. Is that really all you think about when someone advices someone else not to run or store a vehicle with no fuel in the tank?

Running any vehicle down to where there is no fuel left in the tank is an invitation for problems, regardless of year, make, or model. Waiting to fill your tank up for 800 miles, like the person I was responding to, also seems like a stupid way to drive around, regardless of what it could do to the car because of what it can do to the *driver*.

The post I wrote about battery tech was 100% accurate and if you have anything to augment or refute it, add to the conversation. Not sure what incentive you have to take potshots at my points.

bhtooefr August 24th, 2019 13:12

100% being a true 100% depends on the manufacturer - Tesla's usual practice is for 100% to actually mean 4.2 volts per cell, their cells' maximum charge voltage rating (unless a problem is detected which warrants reducing maximum charge voltage). So, if you need the range, you can use it, but you're advised that normal usage charging should be to 90% to extend longevity.

0% is almost never a true 0%, though, AFAIK everyone has some buffer at the bottom to avoid damage.

casioqv August 24th, 2019 17:35

I found this site really useful at explaining battery management and longevity.


https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

Tdijarhead August 25th, 2019 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531671)
300 miles of range means you can drive it 300 miles, the car will limit charging to %80 and stop moving when you hit %20, with that %60 of the batteries maximum capacity the car can go 300 miles.
...


Thank you, that is something I did not realize.



Quote:

Originally Posted by bizzle (Post 5531703)
Running any vehicle down to where there is no fuel left in the tank is an invitation for problems, regardless of year, make, or model. Waiting to fill your tank up for 800 miles, like the person I was responding to, also seems like a stupid way to drive around, regardless of what it could do to the car because of what it can do to the *driver*.
.

One of the things we love about these cars is the incredible miles per gallon we can achieve. I have never run my car out of fuel, I agree that is pretty stupid.
However I donít think Iím the only one who drives as far as I can on a tank of fuel. I donít like to stop at the diesel pump every 2-3 days because my tank needs topping off.

If your driving style is such the youíre topping off every few days thatís fine I donít care itís your decision, just in my opinion, silly. Kinda like having to plug your electric car in every day.

Mythdoc August 25th, 2019 12:06

500 miles to fill up at around 1/4 tank seems pretty fine to me in my Q5 TDI. I have a couple of stations where I like to go, so when I am passing by, I stop. YMMV

tikal August 25th, 2019 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5531587)
I don't know if it's federally mandated, but it seems that most if not all EV batteries have a pretty reasonable battery capacity warranty. Kia is 7 year/100,000 miles to retain at least 70% capacity. I believe VW is going to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty for 70%. Not counting the Leaf, with it's less than ideal battery cooling system, many other hybrids and EVs have reached substantial mileage on their original batteries. Tesla data shows that even after 140,000 miles most batteries are still at 90% capacity or better. It appears that an EV with proper battery cooling will not have a battery issues for the expected life of the car.

As to recycling, as already mentioned an EV battery can continue to function as local storage for a solar panel installation for many more years. There are also businesses ramping up lithium-ion recycling, as the minerals in the battery are worth enough to recycle.

But I said earlier, EV automobiles won't be completely replacing ICE vehicles for quite some time. I see both working side by side for many years, each doing what it does best. Would I buy another TDI? Yes I believe I would. Would I buy an EV in the future? I'm pretty sure that answer is yes as well. I personally have no conflict between the two. :)

According to this:

https://www.kia.com/us/content/dam/k...ty_soul_ev.pdf

It is 120 months/100,000 miles and it is transferable and it includes the Battery pack (ďEV Battery).

I presume the "small print" will say something like if you 'abused' it or extreme climate the warranty is either reduced or cancelled.

atc98002 August 25th, 2019 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5531905)
According to this:

https://www.kia.com/us/content/dam/k...ty_soul_ev.pdf

It is 120 months/100,000 miles and it is transferable and it includes the Battery pack (ďEV Battery).

I presume the "small print" will say something like if you 'abused' it or extreme climate the warranty is either reduced or cancelled.

I must have looked at a link for another country of something, or I overlooked a specific mention of the EV model. I agree, there's always fine print in there somewhere...:p

tikal August 25th, 2019 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Dobro (Post 5531624)
There's a 2012 Volt named Sparkie that the original owner got up to 477,625 miles before it developed a problem. He sold it to a shop, which found the problem, repaired it and plans to continue driving it. They tested the battery and found it degraded only 20% after all that use.

Great start.

Now bring data for about 100 Volt vehicles that have reached 200,000 miles or more and give as an average and spread of the battery degradation. Geographical diversity of these 100 vehicles would also be very helpful.

El Dobro August 25th, 2019 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5531907)
Great start.
Now bring data for about 100 Volt vehicles that have reached 200,000 miles or more and give as an average and spread of the battery degradation. Geographical diversity of these 100 vehicles would also be very helpful.

https://www.voltstats.net/

tikal August 26th, 2019 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Dobro (Post 5531915)

Good deal. Thanks. I see there are 20 cars with 100K miles or more.

kjclow August 26th, 2019 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5531646)
Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time. Not really accurate as EV ranges have increased, but it's not that far off.

There are a lot of things I like about my MKIV TDI, but near the top of the list is the range between fills. Once you get used to 700+ miles on every fill, with some over 800, it's hard to go back to even the 500 per tank my GSW delivers. I would not enjoy recharging every 200 or so miles. And before someone posts "just plug it in at night," I have a 275 gallon over the road diesel tank with a pump at my house. So I can refill at home...in 5 min or less.

I had my daughter and her fiancť in my truck the other day. He asked what my DTE range was because from where he was sitting it looked like I was running on E. I still had about 150 miles left on the tank and had already driven about 400. He just bought a 19 taco with the 4 banger. I think he struggles to get over 350 miles per tank with all city driving.

El Dobro August 26th, 2019 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5532040)
Good deal. Thanks. I see there are 20 cars with 100K miles or more.

That list represents roughly 2% of Volt production, so I'm sure there's a lot more high mileage ones out there.

IndigoBlueWagon August 26th, 2019 11:51

Regardless of what anyone says, I can't agree that the Volt is an EV. It has an internal combustion engine. Regardless of propulsion method, it can charge batteries whenever programmed to do so. That has to improve battery life.

As an aside, Colorado just adopted California's mandate to sell 5% of new cars as "electric" by 2023. That includes plug-in hybrids. Those vehicles are currently 2.6% of auto sales. Manufacturers can buy credits if they don't meet the mandate.

IXLR8 August 26th, 2019 17:37

I have a 02 ALH Golf, love the car and it's FE. I have 300K miles on it, but Maine winters have killed it. Due to rust through out it will no longer pass a safety inspection. :(
The JSW I replaced it with is a nice car, but I just can't get the same FE.
Our local taxi service has a fleet of Prius, all of them have gotten over 400K miles on them before they get replaced. I think they reported that the highest mile one they had was 475K miles. None of them had their batteries replaced before they were turned in.
My question, can the power grid handle recharging all these electric cars we are suppose to be getting?? How "clean" will all this power be that is going to be generated to charge these "clean" cars??

IndigoBlueWagon August 26th, 2019 17:53

My son is driving his '02 Golf from Northampton MA to Madison WI today. Trip is just over 1,000 miles and he's doing it all in one shot. He called me at about 5 PM from near Toledo and while we were talking he said he'd stopped near Buffalo for fuel, made a rest stop near Cleveland, but he didn't want to stop again till he got home. I asked him about fuel, and he said, "oh yeah, fuel. I have 385 miles to go and a half tank. Probably too close for comfort." That's the opposite of range anxiety.

marcusku August 26th, 2019 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5532202)
My son is driving his '02 Golf from Northampton MA to Madison WI today. Trip is just over 1,000 miles and he's doing it all in one shot. He called me at about 5 PM from near Toledo and while we were talking he said he'd stopped near Buffalo for fuel, made a rest stop near Cleveland, but he didn't want to stop again till he got home. I asked him about fuel, and he said, "oh yeah, fuel. I have 385 miles to go and a half tank. Probably too close for comfort." That's the opposite of range anxiety.


The TDI range sure is nice. In a Mk4 if you slowed down and didn't have a headwind you could make that on one tank!

We recently bought a Chevy Bolt for my wife and will primarily get used around town. The range is advertised as 240 miles which seems realistic with a mix of city and hwy driving. In town it would actually go much further but straight hwy going 70 the range seems to be closer to about 200 miles. Although I love my TDI it sure is a fun car to drive. It has 200 hp and you can sure tell, faster than my RC4 Mk4 Golf was.

Electric cars make a lot of sense for most people's daily driving but they will have their shortcomings for quite some time for those you put a lot of miles on or take long trips.

BeetleGo August 27th, 2019 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXLR8 (Post 5532200)
I have a 02 ALH Golf, love the car and it's FE. I have 300K miles on it, but Maine winters have killed it. Due to rust through out it will no longer pass a safety inspection. :(
The JSW I replaced it with is a nice car, but I just can't get the same FE.
Our local taxi service has a fleet of Prius, all of them have gotten over 400K miles on them before they get replaced. I think they reported that the highest mile one they had was 475K miles. None of them had their batteries replaced before they were turned in.
My question, can the power grid handle recharging all these electric cars we are suppose to be getting?? How "clean" will all this power be that is going to be generated to charge these "clean" cars??

Now? No. But electric chargers, particularly high output American Tesla chargers are multiplying VERY quickly. Tesla knows that this is a crucial component to electrifying. And if your a competitor, Tesla has left the door open for other carmakers to use the same system! Few are taking this offer up.

Just wait until you can charge your car with induction (Mercedes is already offering it on their electric S Class), where you park over a charge point and the car rejuices without lugging in! Itís not far off. I intend to sell my TDI in 3-5 years for a Model Y. I love my diesel, but with induction, I will switch.

tikal August 27th, 2019 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXLR8 (Post 5532200)
I have a 02 ALH Golf, love the car and it's FE. I have 300K miles on it, but Maine winters have killed it. Due to rust through out it will no longer pass a safety inspection. :(
The JSW I replaced it with is a nice car, but I just can't get the same FE.
Our local taxi service has a fleet of Prius, all of them have gotten over 400K miles on them before they get replaced. I think they reported that the highest mile one they had was 475K miles. None of them had their batteries replaced before they were turned in.
My question, can the power grid handle recharging all these electric cars we are suppose to be getting?? How "clean" will all this power be that is going to be generated to charge these "clean" cars??

As another data point regarding Priuses used as taxis (and not necessarily to contradict your information). When I traveled to Spain some few years I learned that the Pruises used in the city of Valencia were experiencing issues but I do not have specifics.

turbobrick240 August 27th, 2019 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5532293)
As another data point regarding Priuses used as taxis (and not necessarily to contradict your information). When I traveled to Spain some few years I learned that the Pruises used in the city of Valencia were experiencing issues but I do not have specifics.

The Prius would not be the vehicle of choice for large taxi fleets (like nyc) if there were reliability or maintenance issues. It's not my cup of tea, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that they aren't rock solid at this point.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...parently-video

bizzle August 27th, 2019 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeetleGo (Post 5532252)
I intend to sell my TDI in 3-5 years for a Model Y. I love my diesel, but with induction, I will switch.

Not me, I'm waiting for the bus!

atc98002 August 27th, 2019 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by bizzle (Post 5532344)
Not me, I'm waiting for the bus!

Yeah, the VW Buzz would be my choice over the Model Y. But I think the Crozz will be what I end up with. Reports are now calling it the ID4x, so we'll just have to see what VW does. :p

bizzle August 27th, 2019 13:02

We'll be keeping the Treg so I'm thinking Buzz over Crozz for my family.

Not sure when we'd be driving the Treg under those conditions but if it keeps the wife happy...

jackbombay August 27th, 2019 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5532293)
As another data point regarding Priuses used as taxis (and not necessarily to contradict your information). When I traveled to Spain some few years I learned that the Pruises used in the city of Valencia were experiencing issues but I do not have specifics.

This is some premium grade exceedingly vague completely unverifiable information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5532202)
My son is driving his '02 Golf from Northampton MA to Madison WI today. Trip is just over 1,000 miles...

Intermediate level long distance driver, not bad ;-)

IndigoBlueWagon August 27th, 2019 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5532422)
Intermediate level long distance driver, not bad ;-)

I'd agree with that. I'm headed out there in October, and am considering taking a couple more days and heading to Bozeman to visit my brother before he leaves the area. That's a little more serious.

jackbombay August 27th, 2019 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5532440)
heading to Bozeman to visit my brother before he leaves the area.

Why's he leaving Bozeman?

oilhammer August 28th, 2019 03:39

We help service a lot of cabs, many of which are Prius or hybrid Camry models. They overall hold up OK but are subject to a few things with higher mileages. Batteries are common (we do these on non-cab Toyota hybrids frequently).

Camry getting a new battery:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...24_1205201.jpg

Prius battery (note how the entire interior aft of the B-pillars must come out... these are not service friendly AT ALL):

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...1140553-00.jpg

Transmissions here and there:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...219_104635.jpg

Not that the transmission itself fails, but they leak coolant from an o-ring in the bellhousing (there is coolant running through the transmission case to cool the motor/generator). The o-ring, because of the design of the transmission, would require complete disassembly to fix... and Toyota doesn't even sell any parts for these anyway. Fortunately used units are readily available.

We seem to be doing a high number of Prius (and other Toyota) evaporator cores lately:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...109_061914.jpg

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...15_0620511.jpg

And of course the common coolant pumps, valves, etc. of their complicated dual cooling system:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...208_054057.jpg

IndigoBlueWagon August 28th, 2019 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5532490)
Why's he leaving Bozeman?

His wife has a new job in Alexandria VA. He's moving there later this fall, somewhat reluctantly. But he says he'll go back to Bozo if the opportunity arises. He's been there since college (mid 70s). Really likes it there.

redbarron55 August 28th, 2019 06:00

The only thing I had to replace in 197 K miles was that electric inverter coolant pump and the battery. 14 years and 197 miles, not bad.
I found a pullout "New" Battery that had been replaced by Toyota right before it was wrecked in Mississippi.
New tires, New battery, New pump in the 2002 Gen I Prius. Mom gave it to our son for the last two weeks of it's like.....
Normal death sentence for my cars.

atc98002 August 28th, 2019 06:01

@Oilhammer, that picture of a completely disassembled dash is scary!

oilhammer August 28th, 2019 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5532542)
@Oilhammer, that picture of a completely disassembled dash is scary!

Heh, just another day at the office here. You want scary, check out someone doing a "bulletproofing" on a 6.0L Powerstroke. :eek:

IndigoBlueWagon August 28th, 2019 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbarron55 (Post 5532541)
The only thing I had to replace in 197 K miles was that electric inverter coolant pump and the battery. 14 years and 197 miles, not bad.
I found a pullout "New" Battery that had been replaced by Toyota right before it was wrecked in Mississippi.
New tires, New battery, New pump in the 2002 Gen I Prius. Mom gave it to our son for the last two weeks of it's like.....
Normal death sentence for my cars.

I think the admirable thing about this is you managing to drive a Gen 1 Prius for 14 years and 197K miles. I test drove one before I bought IBW and after a short highway run decided I wouldn't be able to tolerate it on a daily basis. And I wanted to like the car. My recollection is it couldn't hold 75 MPH without the transmission going nuts.

The Gen 1 is still my favorite, followed closely by the current Gen. A lot of people think the current Prius is fugly, but I think it steps over the line of being so ugly it's beautiful.

oilhammer August 28th, 2019 06:56

I cannot stand to drive them long enough to get the coolant up to temp after service. I make one of the porters do that. That is always a fun PITA, because they are awful to bleed the cooling systems on. The one's with the coolant going through the catalyst are not as bad, they warm up much faster.

redbarron55 August 29th, 2019 16:05

While I was driving the Prius our other car was a 2009 JSW and I did enjoy it much more.
The Prius was a good bit cheaper to own and drive, but all it had to do was get me to and from work.
By the way my wife hated it as well. but I noticed that almost without fail I ended up where I wanted to go and got back.

Owain@malonetuning August 29th, 2019 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5532509)
Prius battery (note how the entire interior aft of the B-pillars must come out... these are not service friendly AT ALL):
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...1140553-00.jpg

Looks like one heck of a job! is the photo blurry from you shaking in anger :p

oilhammer August 30th, 2019 03:39

Yeah must've had some schmutz on the camera lens.

The job isn't all that bad. I have done just about everything you can think of to a Prius. Engines, transmissions, HVAC case stuff, steering racks, axle beams, and COUNTLESS batteries, inverters, water pumps, intake manifolds, control valves, thermos bottles.... you name it. Not a bad car to work on really. Toyotas in general are not too bad, but they for sure are not really made to be taken apart and put back together due to all the cheesy little plastic expando-clips everywhere. Where Volkswagen would use a gauntlet of Torx screws (fender liners, bumper covers, splash shields) that are super easy to R&R, Toyota uses those darn clips that have a 50% chance of breaking upon removal. Plus, they'll use four different ones to hold one piece on the car. And some of them are frightfully expensive. The four big ones on the bottom of an RX330 for instance ar $18 apiece! :eek: Also, Toyota does not seem to bother with good corrosion resistant fasteners, especially on things like steering/suspension/exhaust/brakes.

My boss, who when I first met him way back in the '80s, was a big flag waving GM fanboy. And he took no breaks from ribbing my friend and mentor at the time about Toyotas. Now, the boss is a total Toyota (mostly the hybrids) kool-aid drinker. And bad mouths GM like they are the spawn of satan. :rolleyes: So to that end, he seems to solicit a lot of Prius work here. We get loads of them that the dealers just price the repairs out of orbit for any mere mortal, and we come in and do the job for FAR less and get them back on the road. So that's cool. Even the only Toyota specialist shop in town won't touch any Toyota hybrid aside from simple oil changes and stuff. So we stay busy with those for sure.

Only downside is, Prius drivers crash. A lot. And those cars are very fragile on the outside. You can, literally, with your bare hands, tear a bumper cover right off the front of one (reference cheesy plastic clips above). And the low hanging fragile bits behind them, like the thermos bottle, the dual radiators, condenser, etc. are all ripe for smashing. Steering racks bend and break if you drive over a dead squirrel. Control arms bend easily. And a deer strike.... yeah, those usually cannot be fixed. So we are constantly dealing with cobbling broken stuff back together, and I swear every Prius driver must carry a roll of duct tape in the glove box, because they often come in here with that as the only means to hold whatever fragile plastic bits on the outside of the car that came loose on to the body. :p

IndigoBlueWagon August 30th, 2019 05:04

I was behind a Prius entering the freeway the other day and the entire rear bumper was covered with duct tape. The car was silver and the tape was gray. You'd think at least they could have matched the color.

There was a Peach Parts member whose sig said "Lumpy duct tape is a sign of poor workmanship." I like that.

oilhammer August 30th, 2019 07:02

This seriously just showed up this morning:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/med...7173483728.jpg

I cannot make this crap up, LMAO.... note the twine dangling off the bottom, too. A nice touch. :D

turbobrick240 August 30th, 2019 09:21

That reminds me of the '10 Corolla a buddy had. The front bumper cover was held on with duct tape until I classed it up for him with some pop rivets and zip ties. The sheet metal was so thin on that car that leaning up against it could induce dents. Nothing like the '90's yota pickups I used to own.

redbarron55 August 30th, 2019 10:33

The duck tape must be a local thing.
I don't see any down here in Florida and Alabama.
Not on Prii anyway.
The first time I R&Rd the battery it was a PITA but once you know your way around it's not so bad.
The Gen 1 Prius I had had no problems with 75 + but it was not a great touring car by any means.
Maybe cheap drivers have taken over the Prii and turned to Duct Tape.

turbobrick240 August 30th, 2019 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbarron55 (Post 5533093)
The duck tape must be a local thing.
I don't see any down here in Florida and Alabama..

Yeah, I suspect the Red Green Show doesn't get much air time down in Florida and Alabama. Just as well, the adhesive probably doesn't work so great in the heat. Not that it ever works that great. :D

imbrian August 31st, 2019 06:09

indiana is heavy in the duct and bailing wire....no inspection right? so ya go to the neighbor farmer and grab the wire first, then duct for aesthetics.

redbarron55 August 31st, 2019 15:27

The question when we were working on old crop dusters was how many layers of duck tape before you had to pull it off and re-tape...

Warthog September 2nd, 2019 07:48

In reference to the oilhammer-photo of the Toyota with the duct tape and twine: I''d guess they tried to hang a bicycle rack off the back and this is what happened.
Rather common thing I've noticed around here - Clemson SC...Plastic car bodies not meant to carry off-hung loads!
BTW, RED duct-tape IS available!

tikal September 3rd, 2019 10:44

I find it paradoxically interesting about the sensitive reaction of some posters in TDIClub to the possibility (albeit remote) that VW will bring back vehicles that on the average will do 40 MPG or better and comply with US/Canada regulations. What's wrong with that? Do we see the big picture that the majority of Americans continue to buy gas powered vehicles that cannot make even 20 MPG?

In my opinion the 'fight' between light duty diesel vehicles and EVs is a terrible false dichotomy and rather embarrassing to be happening at TDIClub :-(

kjclow September 3rd, 2019 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 5533577)
In reference to the oilhammer-photo of the Toyota with the duct tape and twine: I''d guess they tried to hang a bicycle rack off the back and this is what happened.
Rather common thing I've noticed around here - Clemson SC...Plastic car bodies not meant to carry off-hung loads!
BTW, RED duct-tape IS available!

Or the twine was a left over from when the rear hatch would latch. My dad always got a kick out of the neighbor that made a big deal out of being an electrical engineer. His method of fixing a broken taillight was red tinted tape. The bulb still worked, so he still had a brake light.

kjclow September 3rd, 2019 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikal (Post 5533823)
I find it paradoxically interesting about the sensitive reaction of some posters in TDIClub to the possibility (albeit remote) that VW will bring back vehicles that on the average will do 40 MPG or better and comply with US/Canada regulations. What's wrong with that? Do we see the big picture that the majority of Americans continue to buy gas powered vehicles that cannot make even 20 MPG?

In my opinion the 'fight' between light duty diesel vehicles and EVs is a terrible false dichotomy and rather embarrassing to be happening at TDIClub :-(

I have no issues with VW, or anyone else, bringing diesel vehicles back to our shores. As many on this thread and site have stated and I agree with, a small hatch or sedan are not the correct applications for the diesel. Put it in the SUVs. Add a hybrid component if that will help it sell better. I'd buy one if they also don't price it out of consideration.

BeetleGo September 3rd, 2019 13:10

The thing is, you will be able to buy an 8th gen Golf(etta) for some time to come, but gen 9 will be the ID. Golf, inc. is on the Tesla track. Dieselís are dead in these sized cars and electric is whatís replacing it.
I know that I switched to diesel in large part because I liked the torque! Guess what, if I have to go to an automatic, make mine a one speed electric please! Preferably domestically made, with acceleration like a Porsche, safety like no other, and lack of rust - ever.

jmodge September 3rd, 2019 13:13

I was talking to a local shop owner today and he claimed the powers that be are debating getting rid of DEF. Apparently there are claims of it being more unhealthy than without, Cancer concerns

atc98002 September 3rd, 2019 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmodge (Post 5533857)
I was talking to a local shop owner today and he claimed the powers that be are debating getting rid of DEF. Apparently there are claims of it being more unhealthy than without, Cancer concerns

Unless they come up with a replacement fluid, that would mean the death of diesel completely. I don't think there's any way to meet emissions requirements for NOx without it. At least not with an engine that would be worth the TDI label.

BeetleGo September 3rd, 2019 14:41

If you own a pre-scandal TDI, drive it into the ground, then shop electric.

I’m trying to wait as long as possible. My TDI is in great shape under the covers, but some drunk smacked me good about 3 weeks ago, and ran. The rear wheel well, the rear door, the driver’s door, and the side view mirror all got side swiped, but since the car is otherwise completely reliable, and the doors and windows work, my car just got reclassified as an “urban beater” while I wait for the electric market to become more established. Maxwell batteries and induction chargers under parking spots are coming. Mercedes will off induction from the getgo.

I just hope I can wait!

jmodge September 3rd, 2019 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5533863)
Unless they come up with a replacement fluid, that would mean the death of diesel completely. I don't think there's any way to meet emissions requirements for NOx without it. At least not with an engine that would be worth the TDI label.

Can of worms either direction. It will be interesting to see how long technology stays affordable to the middle class. I still think I will see mass transit become the most viable mode of transportation in my lifetime

IndigoBlueWagon September 3rd, 2019 16:09

BeetleGo, sorry to hear about the damage to your Golf.

wxman September 3rd, 2019 16:15

The only cancer concern with DEF that I can think of is emissions of ammonia which are possible with excess DEF dosing in some cases. Even then, the cancer concerns would be from secondary particle formation with ammonia reacting with nitrate/sulfate in the atmosphere post exhaust emission.

Many of the diesel vehicles available in the U.S. now have ammonia oxidation catalysts that remove any excess ammonia from the exhaust.

atc98002 September 3rd, 2019 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmodge (Post 5533902)
I still think I will see mass transit become the most viable mode of transportation in my lifetime

Depending on your location, it already is. I've never been to New York, but I imagine the city would grind to a halt without the subways. I have been to DC, and the Metro light rail is the only way I'll ever try to get around in that town. I'm sure there are other major US cities that offer something similar. But for the vast majority of the US, mass transit will never be viable. Too large an area wtih too few people in it to make economic sense. Private transportation will still be required, although the future may bring about viable self driving cars. But there sure aren't any of those around yet... :p

jmodge September 3rd, 2019 17:05

If vehicles can be produced economically enough for the masses to afford them, sure. If not R&D cost can’t be recouped if sales numbers go down and single costs of vehicles would go up. At that point vehicles would need the mass transit revenue. Not that it affects me as such, but there are many people around who do not have vehicle purchases in there future.

IndigoBlueWagon September 3rd, 2019 18:33

Mass transit could be a great solution for daily transportation, except most cities with older transit systems are neglecting them to the point that they no longer provide reliable or safe transportation. NYC is in the middle of a desperate attempt to throw money at their subway system to stem the increasing travel times for many riders. Boston has experienced a subway derailment and fire in the past few months. Both more common events than the should be. BART is limited in scope and close to 40 years old with limited upgrades in that time. I'm not that familiar with Chicago's transit system except to know that it's an amazingly slow and uncomfortable way to get to and from O'Hare.

Where I live commuter rail was re-introduced about 20 years ago. We had it when I was very little, and in the late 50s the state stopped providing a subsidy because they'd built a limited access highway to Boston and thought it was no longer needed. When they brought it back they did it with diesel powered trains that move slow, have limited flexibility in train length, and riding them is like going back in time. Contrast that with the rail service between Hong Kong's airport and downtown, where the trains are electric, fast, and provide seatback internet connections. We've got a long way to go when it comes to public transportation.


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