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-   -   Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: ‘Now it is absolutely clean’ (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=501301)

TDIMeister August 14th, 2019 15:30

Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: ‘Now it is absolutely clean’
 
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-riva...ent-interview/

Quote:

Recent comments from a Volkswagen executive suggests that the German automaker is not yet ready to fully let go of diesel-powered vehicles. The comments, which were related by Sebastian Willmann, Head of Diesel Engine Development at VW, were published by the veteran carmaker in a blog post promoting its 2.0 TDI EA288 Evo diesel engine, which is designed to meet the strict Euro 6d-Temp standard.

casioqv August 14th, 2019 17:03

I hope this means they will eventually reintroduce diesels in NA, but I doubt it.

Quote:

Volkswagen has since unveiled its first all-electric car, the ID.3
Hmmm... I'm pretty sure my e-Golf is all-electric, as were the CityStromer Golf models going back to 1989

IndigoBlueWagon August 14th, 2019 17:14

Just yesterday I was talking with my local guru about the return of VW diesels. He believes that VW won't do anything until the buyback cars are all sold. We're getting close to that. And then he thinks they may bring the EA288 back, as it will meet EPA standards without difficulty. We were also wondering why VW doesn't seem to be doing much in the way of gasoline engine development. Perhaps that indicates a desire to add diesels to the lineup instead of new gasoline engines.

Or we could be dreaming...

atc98002 August 14th, 2019 17:55

Yeah, we're dreaming. :)

I did read an article the other day that ocean-going vessels are all going to have to switch from bunker fuel to something a little more refined, and that was expected to cause a significant rise in the price of diesel fuel for general use. Can't remember when the cutover was supposed to happen, but it wasn't far off. A couple of years at most. While there are stations around me that have kept the price of D2 near RUG, there are others that D2 is a little higher than PUG. If what this article said is true, D2 could end up $1 or more per gallon higher than even PUG. That alone would kill any chances of the TDI returning to the US.

Myself personally, I've already gone to a plug-in hybrid, and when VW finally gets the ID Crozz (hopefully with a better name) stateside my lease will be up and I'll be looking hard it at. With my current car, I'm around 400 MPG, and using about $15 per month in electricity. I can live with that. :)

Pat Dolan August 14th, 2019 20:00

When the elctric car thing bombs (there will be a surge of interest, since the whining Euro weenies and the looney idiots in the press tell everyone that they are the future) there MIGHT be a chance to buy another diesel from someone, maybe not VW though. Too bad, since after 50+ years of involvement, I have probably bought my last ever new VW (Q7 TDI)

nwdiver August 14th, 2019 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5529273)
When the elctric car thing bombs

What exactly would cause them to 'bomb'? There has already been significant improvement just in the past 5 years and the rare materials like cobalt are being engineered out of the battery. Batteries are getting cheaper, more powerful, longer lasting AND more sustainable.

PLUS there's an increasing amount of clean and 'free' energy available called 'curtailed renewables'. CA is tossed out enough surplus solar in May to power >1M EVs. Add an EV to a network and you can get free power when free power is available. Doesn't get any cleaner than solar or wind that would have been wasted if it wasn't used to charge a car :D

IndigoBlueWagon August 15th, 2019 02:21

One thing that might help electric cars bomb is if owners have to pay the full cost for the car without subsidies, and if they have to pay the same taxes for fuel as other cars. The fuel tax won't amount to much, given electric's MPGe, but eliminating the Federal and state handouts could cause buyers to look to less expensive options.

Sadly, the current oil glut doesn't give drivers incentive to save fuel with either diesel or electric. That's why Ford sold nearly a million F 150s last year. Doesn't bode well for diesel or electric.

bhtooefr August 15th, 2019 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5529273)
When the elctric car thing bombs (there will be a surge of interest, since the whining Euro weenies and the looney idiots in the press tell everyone that they are the future) there MIGHT be a chance to buy another diesel from someone, maybe not VW though. Too bad, since after 50+ years of involvement, I have probably bought my last ever new VW (Q7 TDI)

Have you driven a good EV?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529291)
One thing that might help electric cars bomb is if owners have to pay the full cost for the car without subsidies, and if they have to pay the same taxes for fuel as other cars. The fuel tax won't amount to much, given electric's MPGe, but eliminating the Federal and state handouts could cause buyers to look to less expensive options.

Sadly, the current oil glut doesn't give drivers incentive to save fuel with either diesel or electric. That's why Ford sold nearly a million F 150s last year. Doesn't bode well for diesel or electric.

While crappy compliance cars' sales fall off a cliff when incentives are removed and taxes added, actually good EVs merely see a pull-forward of the existing demand to get the incentive, and then a dip in sales for a quarter or two until the demand recovers. We're seeing this effect with Tesla in the US right now, and we've seen it in various European countries.

Part of this is simply because in some ways, EVs are better. Much smoother and much more responsive power delivery than a turbocharged ICE with a randoshift transmission or a CVT, quieter, and if you've got somewhere to plug it in at night or at work, you don't have to stop to refuel it for your daily driving.

And, F-150s are really an American thing - in much of the rest of the world, fuel taxes (which attempt to internalize the negative externalities of burning fuel) make them too expensive to use. But, even in that kind of giving no ****s about the environment or fuel costs market, Tesla's selling every car they can make here.

oilhammer August 15th, 2019 07:31

I hope they come back here. That would be great. Their US portfolio is just getting worse and worse seemingly by the day.

IndigoBlueWagon August 15th, 2019 08:49

Toof, I think it's premature to make any claims about sales trends as rebates disappear. And Tesla's days of selling every car they can make (despite their history of not meeting production targets) may be behind them. We don't have enough history on that to say, either.

And you're right, trucks are an American thing. That's where I live. But electrics are kind of an American thing, too. Europeans I talk to don't take electrics seriously except for urban use, because at European highway speeds they can have trouble with batteries overheating and the actual range is dramatically reduced. I haven't talked to anyone from Norway, however.

I honestly can't believe that as a culture how totally insensitive we are to the fossil fuels we consume. At Starbucks this AM the parking lot was gridlocked momentarily because of the huge trucks and SUVs trying to get in and out of spaces that are too small for them. All the vehicles I saw had one occupant and no payload. Crazy.

nwdiver August 15th, 2019 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529291)
One thing that might help electric cars bomb is if owners have to pay the full cost for the car without subsidies,

Except the cost of EVs is falling faster than the subsidies are phasing out. By ~2025 they'll likely be cheaper than an equivalent ICE.

Rob Mayercik August 15th, 2019 09:39

I'm with IBW that EVs are not carrying their share of the "road tax" burden, since that's levied through purchase of fuels they don't use. This is likely to become a LOT more interesting when the all-electric tractor-trailer cabs start appearing on the roads, since diesel tractor-trailers buy a LOT of fuel. There's been no real discussion about how to account for the "gas tax" revenue lost to EVs, other than some hare-brained silliness about GPS trackers being forced on the owners, and it needs to start happening SOON.

tdi54 August 15th, 2019 10:02

One positive news about the Diesels, I hope VW brings these fine vehicles back to NA.

IndigoBlueWagon August 15th, 2019 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5529363)
Except the cost of EVs is falling faster than the subsidies are phasing out. By ~2025 they'll likely be cheaper than an equivalent ICE.

What evidence do you see of this? Tesla's playing pricing games, has nothing to do with the cost of building the cars, as their second quarter profit figures demonstrated. New EVs from Audi, Jaguar, and Mercedes are all in Model S price ranges.

Look at it this way:
  • MSRP for a Chevrolet Bolt is $36,620. It earns a $3,750 federal tax credit, and up to an $1,875 state tax credit ($1,500 in MA). That makes the total cost of the car $30,995.
  • A Chevy Sonic Hatch an MSRP of $18,020. A Cruze Hatch is $19,620. A Trax is $21,300. So the largest price difference is $12,975.
Some buyers may not be able to use the entire tax credit. And they may need a charging station in their house. The $13,000 difference works out to about $240/month on a 5 year loan. That would buy a lot of gasoline.

So even with the credit and rebate the electric is going to cost substantially more to own in the first 5 years. And a lot more if the incentives go away.

wxman August 15th, 2019 11:30

I know this has been discussed on here before, but the speculation that BEV will reach price parity with ICEV by 2025 is not a unanimous conclusion.

According to a recent comprehensive "cradle-to-grave" study (Elgowainy et al. (2018), “Current and Future United States Light-Duty Vehicle Pathways: Cradle-to-Grave Lifecycle Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Economic Assessment” Environ. Sci. Technol.), the cost of long-range BEV on 100% solar power is expected to decrease to $0.38/mile over its entire lifespan (15 years) by 2035, while the cost of ICEV over its lifespan is projected to be $0.26/mile (fossil gasoline) to $0.31/mile (renewable gasoline/diesel) by 2035.

casioqv August 15th, 2019 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 5529400)
the cost of long-range BEV on 100% solar power is expected to decrease to $0.38/mile over its entire lifespan (15 years) by 2035

Is this supposed to include purchase price and maintenance or just electricity/fuel? With our unusually high electricity prices in CA, I'm paying about $0.06/mile for electricity in the e-Golf. That's at $0.22 /kWh, and owning your own solar panels is supposed to be cheaper than that.


I got the car really cheap as it was a year old slow charge model, but my total price estimate is about $0.145/mile if I go 200k miles in 15 years, including maintenance (tires, etc.) and purchase price, but not including insurance and registration.

oilhammer August 15th, 2019 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529405)
Is this supposed to include purchase price and maintenance or just electricity/fuel? With our unusually high electricity prices in CA, I'm paying about $0.06/mile for electricity in the e-Golf. That's at $0.22 /kWh, and owning your own solar panels is supposed to be cheaper than that.


I got the car really cheap as it was a year old slow charge model, but my total price estimate is about $0.145/mile if I go 200k miles in 15 years, including maintenance (tires, etc.) and purchase price, but not including insurance and registration.


You won't be able to go 200k miles/15 years in its current state. At least, I very much doubt it. Although this "aging" will likely just manifest itself with a shorter and shorter range, but its cost-per-mile will likely remain the same, unless the battery's aging also includes a loss of efficiency. Meaning, now you have X amount of electrons going in and giving you X distance. But if the same X needs to go in, but after 50k miles you are getting only X - Y the distance, then the cost-per-mile WILL go up some.

It would be like buying a car that gets 30 MPG when new, but only getting 20 MPG later on, and there is nothing you can do about it.

flee August 15th, 2019 12:36

Missing from the comparisons of ownership costs of BEV vs ICE cars is the
most expensive condition that BEV's are (relatively) immune from, that is
the inevitable rise in the price of fossil fuel.
Electricity prices, while likely to increase, are set by state and local utilities
and not allowed to rise dramatically. By contrast, a single disruption in fossil
fuel supply can result in overnight price increases of double digit percentages.

IndigoBlueWagon August 15th, 2019 12:41

I'm betting that in most metropolitan markets electricity costs have risen faster than gasoline costs in the past 5 years. Utilities are charging more for delivery and maintaining their grids, increasing costs.

And these days an increase in fossil fuel isn't that "inevitable." The US now has more fuel reserves than in recent history. When prices increase slightly, producers just bring more wells on line. I think fuel costs are going to be relatively stable for the foreseeable future.

turbobrick240 August 15th, 2019 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529420)
And these days an increase in fossil fuel isn't that "inevitable." The US now has more fuel reserves than in recent history. When prices increase slightly, producers just bring more wells on line. I think fuel costs are going to be relatively stable for the foreseeable future.

Have you seen who is at the helm of the crazy train that is our current government? Nothing would surprise me at this point.

wxman August 15th, 2019 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529405)
Is this supposed to include purchase price and maintenance or just electricity/fuel?...

It includes all costs over the lifespan of the vehicle, including the vehicle purchase price (without tax credits).

The cost of electricity is assumed to be $4.56/gge in that study.

nwdiver August 15th, 2019 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529420)
I'm betting that in most metropolitan markets electricity costs have risen faster than gasoline costs in the past 5 years. Utilities are charging more for delivery and maintaining their grids, increasing costs.

At least one VW executive sees EV parity with ICE in '3 to 5 years'.

And you can't go by the average price of electricity as an indicator to how much it will cost to charge an EV. Soon you won't even be able to go by the lowest TOU rate. More and more aggregators are going to offer the ability to use EVs as a way to balance the grid. This will make charging them extremely cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5529410)
You won't be able to go 200k miles/15 years in its current state.

My 2012 Model S has now clocked >150,000 miles and I still get >220 miles on a charge. I just finished a road trip from NM to WA with no problems. The new cars are even better. There's also a few Teslas driven as a service that have >400,000 miles. The degradation you describe is also not how degradation works. If a 70kWh battery now has 60kWh of capacity after 10 years it does not require 70kWh to get 60kWh out. The batteries are simply able to hold less charge... it's not much different than having a smaller gas tank. The round-trip efficiency of the battery may decline a little over time but it's not going to be >10%. Have you never had an old cordless tool battery that didn't really hold a charge anymore? They charge significantly faster since they simply can't hold the energy any more....

casioqv August 15th, 2019 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5529410)
You won't be able to go 200k miles/15 years in its current state.

I disagree, based on my understanding of how lithium ion batteries age, and are managed in EVs.

Lithium ion life is drastically longer if the batteries cycle over a narrower range, e.g. 20% to 80%, and avoid full charges and discharges. The factory "full capacity" on an EV only allows this, e.g. charges within about the 20-80% range. As real capacity reduces over time, these boundaries relax keeping the usable capacity roughly the same, but eventually accelerating battery aging. You won't see a usable reduction in capacity for a long time- probably well over 200k miles based on what I've heard from other people. This is why EV batteries last so much longer than phone or computer batteries. With the e-Golf you can also manually narrow this range further with the CarNet software, to further increase battery life.

As lithium batteries age, they do not get noticeably less efficient... they merely can't be charged with as much energy. The total range of the vehicle will eventually fall, but the cost to charge will fall proportionally.

A lithium battery using 100% capacity lasts only about 400 charge cycles, but using only 60% capacity raises this 10 fold to 4,000. 4,000 cycles at 100 miles per cycle is 400,000 miles. My e-golf is rated to 83 miles but actually gets 100-120 in my experience, unless climbing steep grades or running the AC hard.

So if EV batteries were used like cell phone batteries at full charge-discharge, they'd only last 40k miles, but I would expect around 400k life from an EV with proper software and/or an owner that carefully manages charge levels. That seems to be consistent with what high mileage modern EVs are reporting as shown in the post above (400k battery life). This would likely double again to ~800k mile life if you do only short trips in a small town and drop the full charge level via software to 75% of full capacity or so.

vwxyzero August 15th, 2019 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by atc98002 (Post 5529258)
Yeah, we're dreaming. :)

I totally agree. Although I have a great deal of respect for the TDI maestros here, deisel is being shuned in many European cities, and if it's downhill in Europe it ain't gonna be uphill in the States. Yes I still own my VW diesels, but two of them are up on blocks, and my daily driver is electric (guess I need to fix my profile.)

To many recent articles make clear points that diesel is dying.

Two of many:

Bloomberg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-city-centers

LA Times

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...s-city-centers

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

vwxyzero August 15th, 2019 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDIMeister (Post 5529212)

It's also worth reading the comments on this article, as well as following the Twitter link for all the rebuttals.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon August 15th, 2019 18:25

What did you expect from people reading something called Teslarati?

EVs have their supporters. So do diesels. Both groups are going to express opinions in ways that support what they like. Very little of it is factual, probably none of it is objective.

Whether or not we see diesels again probably has more to do with money and politics than anything else. And whether or not EVs become a significant part of our transportation culture will be driven by the same forces. Americans in particular have demonstrated their indifference to climate change. That threat is not going to get many Americans to change their habits.

It doesn't matter what's cleaner, more reliable, or even less expensive to operate: a lot of people like internal combustion engines, and that affection may take generations to go away. I expect Europeans will continue to buy diesels, and I also believe they could find a market in the US if a manufacturer wants to offer vehicles here. VW was able to sell off its "dirty diesel" cars pretty quickly. There may well be enough demand for more to persuade VW to bring them back, if the courts and EPA will allow. Like I said, money and politics.

nwdiver August 15th, 2019 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529501)
Americans in particular have demonstrated their indifference to climate change. That threat is not going to get many Americans to change their habits.

As the song goes, 'The times they are a changin'...'

Frank Luntz, the GOP’s message master, calls for climate action

“I’m here before you to say that I was wrong in 2001,” Luntz told the Senate committee. “Just stop using something that I wrote 18 years ago, because it’s not accurate today.”

jackbombay August 15th, 2019 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529291)
One thing that might help electric cars bomb is if owners have to pay the full cost for the car without subsidies...

I'm sure you would fall off your chair if you had to pay the full cost of your fuel without subsidies, the list of subsidies for our fuel should include the cost of the wars we have fought to ensure reliable access to oil from the middle east, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529356)
I honestly can't believe that as a culture how totally insensitive we are to the fossil fuels we consume. At Starbucks this AM the parking lot was gridlocked momentarily because of the huge trucks and SUVs trying to get in and out of spaces that are too small for them. All the vehicles I saw had one occupant and no payload. Crazy.

Do you remember the intro the the Six Million Dollar Man TV show? Where Steve Austin is a test pilot and crashes his plane at hundreds of miles per hour? That's exactly what humans are in the process of doing with the entire planet.

https://youtu.be/0CPJ-AbCsT8?t=116

IndigoBlueWagon August 16th, 2019 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5529520)
As the song goes, 'The times they are a changin'...'
Frank Luntz, the GOP’s message master, calls for climate action
“I’m here before you to say that I was wrong in 2001,” Luntz told the Senate committee. “Just stop using something that I wrote 18 years ago, because it’s not accurate today.”

I'd love to think they're changing, but I just don't see it. Some people are now saying the right things, but they're largely falling on deaf ears.

oilhammer August 16th, 2019 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5529432)
At least one VW executive sees EV parity with ICE in '3 to 5 years'.

And you can't go by the average price of electricity as an indicator to how much it will cost to charge an EV. Soon you won't even be able to go by the lowest TOU rate. More and more aggregators are going to offer the ability to use EVs as a way to balance the grid. This will make charging them extremely cheap.



My 2012 Model S has now clocked >150,000 miles and I still get >220 miles on a charge. I just finished a road trip from NM to WA with no problems. The new cars are even better. There's also a few Teslas driven as a service that have >400,000 miles. The degradation you describe is also not how degradation works. If a 70kWh battery now has 60kWh of capacity after 10 years it does not require 70kWh to get 60kWh out. The batteries are simply able to hold less charge... it's not much different than having a smaller gas tank. The round-trip efficiency of the battery may decline a little over time but it's not going to be >10%. Have you never had an old cordless tool battery that didn't really hold a charge anymore? They charge significantly faster since they simply can't hold the energy any more....

Settle down, moneybags, I was talking about an eGolf, not your precious Tesla. :rolleyes: We all know thanks to you Teslas are perfect and we should all be so lucky as to afford one like you. Thread crapping again. Some of us LIKE our diesels, and this thread was a glimpse of hope for us. Thanks again for smearing your zealot feelings on it. I will think of you today as I put three more old cars back into service.

Tdijarhead August 16th, 2019 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5529551)
Settle down, moneybags, I was talking about an eGolf, not your precious Tesla. :rolleyes: We all know thanks to you Teslas are perfect and we should all be so lucky as to afford one like you. Thread crapping again. Some of us LIKE our diesels, and this thread was a glimpse of hope for us. Thanks again for smearing your zealot feelings on it. I will think of you today as I put three more old cars back into service.


Thank you oilhammer, well said. I put that guy on my ignore list so I can’t see his posts I could care less what he says about his wonderful Tesla. This is a DIESEL forum last time I looked.

oilhammer August 16th, 2019 05:17

Posting this here in honor of nwdriver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbIOsC_XXyc

The one I am building will be even more epic. :D

turbobrick240 August 16th, 2019 06:04

That's a pretty badass mower- for those days when you have got to mow the lawn and contract cancer in a hurry :eek: .

New Jalopnik article relating to dieselgate(probably go over like a lead balloon here :) ) :

https://jalopnik.com/the-big-diesel-...ion-1837177598

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news...ailure-opinion

nwdiver August 16th, 2019 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5529551)
Settle down, moneybags, I was talking about an eGolf, not your precious Tesla. :rolleyes: We all know thanks to you Teslas are perfect and we should all be so lucky as to afford one like you.

Apologies... Sometimes forget facts are offensive these days.

On side note a new Tesla Model 3 is ~roughly the same price as an eGolf depending on options.

oilhammer August 16th, 2019 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwdiver (Post 5529615)
Apologies... Sometimes forget facts are offensive these days.

On side note a new Tesla Model 3 is ~roughly the same price as an eGolf depending on options.


I am not offended by the fact that my daily driver cost me a grand total of $6k and has covered nearly 190k miles. It is what I can afford. And, it is what I LIKE. If you'd like to buy me a Tesla, even a "cheap one", and line my house' roof with solar panels, I would gladly drive it every day. Well, maybe. I may not like it.

Not all of us are as fortunate as you clearly are. Some of us peons just have to get by with our little diesels. Oh, the horror.... :eek:

nwdiver August 16th, 2019 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5529632)
I am not offended by the fact that my daily driver cost me a grand total of $6k and has covered nearly 190k miles. It is what I can afford. And, it is what I LIKE. If you'd like to buy me a Tesla, even a "cheap one", and line my house' roof with solar panels, I would gladly drive it every day. Well, maybe. I may not like it.

I'm simply correcting misinformation and providing options that many people just are not aware of. For example: For $6k you can get a used LEAF to use as a daily driver which even with the POS battery Nissan put in the LEAF should function as a commuter for most people past 200k miles. Additionally if you shop around a bit and DIY you can get enough solar to provide 100% of the energy and then some for <$3k ($2100 after the FTC). I recently helped our electrician put together a 4.5kW system that will generate ~9,000kWh/yr (>25k miles/yr) for ~$3k.

oilhammer August 16th, 2019 10:25

How about you just start with buying my new HVAC system? Where do I send the estimate? Can you fart out some extra cash to pay for the new transaxle my lawn mower needs? Or should I just have you buy me a new one? One that runs on unicorn tears and orphan farts. Or perhaps I should just get a goat? I have a disabled child... well, young man (although he is only 80 pounds, but he just turned 20) living at home with me. My wife quit her job to take care of him full time. Can you provide a home health care professional to deal with him so my wife can go back to work? He is wheelchair bound, and needs multiple doctor visits every month. Can you provide an electric powered wheelchair lift capable van, since clearly my Sprinter that only gets 27 MPG is not good enough... Oh, and while you are digging into your cash cow (oh, wait, you probably think cows are evil too, you know, bovine farts and all... you have a cash tree... silly me) can you see if you can recover my driveway? Well, heck, just buy me a house closer to work. That'll be easier. In fact, build me a new one. All "green" and such. Make it out of recycled toenail clippings and discarded Starbuck's cups. Just so long as the walls can support that nest of solar panels you are providing to power it with. And a rain collection system. Don't want any public water, that's probably bad too, right? Your kind likely doesn't poop, but I do, so I'll need something to deal with that. I have a septic system now, but I am sure that is probably bad too. Poop in a bucket and throw it in a flower garden? Are flowers ok? Speaking of work, I'm sure you'd like it if I had no work. Which would suck, because I actually LIKE what I do, but I am sure you do not. So you'd have to provide me a stipend. Not much. You know us dumb people can get by eating hot dogs (er, wait, vegan-dogs, heck, if you are paying, I'll eat your hippie food ;) ) and mac'n'cheese.

On second thought, nah, don't do any of that. I'll keep on keepin' on just fine, thanks. But one thing I will NOT do, is go on some EV forums and threadcrap there. I have no desire to do that. I would love it if others would do the same. This IS a TDI site (says so at the top of the page). And this thread was about diesels. :p

casioqv August 16th, 2019 15:28

I'm sad to see so much hatred of EVs and EV owners on here, I love the e-Golf for the same reasons at the TDI - it's efficient, reliable, and fun to drive with tons of torque and the range really isn't the problem I was worried it would be. So far my cost of ownership for a '16 e-Golf has been slightly cheaper than my 2001 Golf TDI, with a lease costing about $5k total, plus a $10k buyout option I might take. $15k for a brand new car that doesn't need any fuel or most ICE related maintenance expenses.

We were sorta forced into it when short on money, because the 01m in our TDI failed, and my wife felt unsafe trying to learn to drive it as a manual swapped car with a newborn baby in the back. With the government incentives plus free charging at work, it proved way cheaper than trying to upgrade to an auto TDI new enough to not have another horrible 01m. The only thing cheaper would have been an old junker that couldn't safely attach a modern childs seat.

Tdijarhead August 16th, 2019 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5529573)
Posting this here in honor of nwdriver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbIOsC_XXyc
The one I am building will be even more epic. :D


Now that’s a lawn mower. I should have one of those. I had to buy a new/used mower this spring. Hustler Super Z, I have a big yard and that is just about as good as it gets.

Tdijarhead August 16th, 2019 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529719)
I'm sad to see so much hatred of EVs and EV owners on here, I love the e-Golf for the same reasons at the TDI - it's efficient, reliable, and fun to drive with tons of torque and the range really isn't the problem I was worried it would be.


I don’t know that there is hatred. Just impatience and annoyance with those who would worship at the feet of Muskie and think that he and they have all the answers for questions that many of us just don’t care about.

I think several people here drive an electric vehicle and this is America, last time I looked. You can drive any car you want and think any way you wish. The rub comes when someone wants to force me to validate their choices, I prefer diesel and this is a diesel forum.

If someone feels compelled to “crap post” about EV’s on a diesel forum expect to “inhale some diesel smoke.” (Get some blowback)

atc98002 August 16th, 2019 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529501)
EVs have their supporters. So do diesels.

I happen to like and support both. I guess my "green" credentials have a shade of blue to them. :p

It's really not an either/or proposition. There are tasks that diesel is still by far the best choice, i.e. long distance and trucking. Tesla and Nikola can both make a lot of noise about their upcoming long haul trucks, but it will be years if not decades before they will be able to replace diesel.

EV is outstanding for local to moderate distance driving, say up to 200 miles. Go beyond that and you have to consider locating a working fast charge station, and then waiting to "fill it up". But have great low end power, with an EV being even better since full torque begins at zero RPM. Both are more economical than driving a comparable gas power vehicle.

EV is a much tougher call if you don't have a dedicated place to park that you can install an EVSE for charging. This includes apartment dwellers, or people with homes that don't have off-street parking. And as noted, new EVs aren't cheap. Also, some areas of the country have electric rates that make an EV far less economical.

When I had my Passat TDI, there was a nearby Shell station that was doubling my Kroger fuel discount, so I was getting diesel sometimes as low as 30-40 cents a gallon. My per mile cost to drive was around 3 cents. Once they stopped doing that, my per mile was still around 5-6 cents. Now with my PHEV, based on my Fuelly monitoring, my cost per mile for gas is about a penny. Adding my electrical use, I am no more that 4 cents per mile total. But electricity in Washington state is pretty low, and very little of it is coal generated. For other parts of the country, the cost to charge an EV could easily make the cost per mile between EV and diesel about the same, or even perhaps but diesel ahead.

Right now I'm locked into a three year lease, so I'm just a bystander at this time. I believe that by mid-2022 I can pick from a number of vehicles that offer the driving range I desire, the options I want, and a price I consider reasonable. My hope is that an EV will meet all my requirements. But if VW does return with a TDI, and they put it in something like the current Tiguan, or slightly smaller, I would seriously consider it as well.

gearheadgrrrl August 16th, 2019 19:13

nwdiver, nice that you can afford a new electric car every few years and the six figure array of solar cells to charge them... I can't. Don't bother telling me about taxpayer subsidies, I don't think I've every earned enough in a year to take advantage of them, and now I'm retired. 200 Mile range? Sorry, I live 60 miles from the nearest charging station and one of my most frequent trips is 350 miles with the closet charging point 80 miles away. And that range drops to 100 miles in our cold winters and half that with a 10 year old battery. And did I mention I'm driving a 2003 TDI? When it was 8 years old I DIY'd the timing belt for less than $300, a new battery for even a Leaf would have been around $6000.


So nwdiver, save your 'lectric car scam for the big city folks who can afford to throw away a car every few years and can take Uber when the battery dies!

Matt-98AHU August 16th, 2019 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5529583)
That's a pretty badass mower- for those days when you have got to mow the lawn and contract cancer in a hurry :eek: .
New Jalopnik article relating to dieselgate(probably go over like a lead balloon here :) ) :
https://jalopnik.com/the-big-diesel-...ion-1837177598
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news...ailure-opinion

Oh, you mean the article written by Jamie "It's called AdBlue because the fluid is blue in color" Kitman?

Yeah, I tore his arguments to shreds in the comments. See if you can guess who I am in the commentariat there.

So full of factual errors, just like 90% of the rest of the poorly informed "journalism" on the topic.

These guys are lawyers and writers, they don't have the faintest clue of the technical realities that are actually going on. It's a majorly skewed perspective compared to what I know from the amount of homework I've done on the topic, and I've done quite a lot because A) it's kind of important to my line of work, B) I'm just kind of intellectually curious like that. I don't take journalism on technical matters on face value because I've repeatedly seen how it gets butchered, especially when it's not all fluff about how amazing such and such high end car's interior is and coming up with ridiculous superlatives to describe it.

Most auto journalists are there to review what it's like to operate a car and be inside of it, most of them don't have the faintest clue how to diagnose, repair or even come close to fully understanding what it takes for all these insanely complicated systems to work as well as they do.

Once again, I'll remind you that the mighty Jamie Kitman, long time auto journalist who's been at it for decades, decided to write something somewhat tech-y, and within the first paragraphs of the article claimed Adblue is named such because that's its color.

That's all you need to know about how well he actually understands the tech at play here. He doesn't. At all. Not in the slightest.

turbobrick240 August 16th, 2019 20:15

Yeah, I saw more than a couple errors in that Jalopnik article. I thought it's illustrative of the current automotive environment in N. America though. Like it or not, I just can't picture VW bringing their diesels over here again. I guess we'll see.

Matt-98AHU August 16th, 2019 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5529778)
Yeah, I saw more than a couple errors in that Jalopnik article. I thought it's illustrative of the current automotive environment in N. America though. Like it or not, I just can't picture VW bringing their diesels over here again. I guess we'll see.

Errors in Jalopnik articles are the norm. They're more clickbait than substance.

Just was surprising that one of the rare moments a decades-long established and "respected" automotive journalist (Kitman is Automobile Mag's "New York bureau chief" or something stupid) actually contributes to the clickbait trash that is Jalopnik for once, and he writes an article that only lives up to the low standards that site sets rather than something genuinely insightful and factual.

Someone actually responded to my initial long-winded post "I'd be careful, Jamie is a well-respected long time journalist."

To which I replied I don't give a crap. You write an article full of BS, I'm going to call it for what it is. I have zero care about one's supposed standing in the greater field if they're spewing lies. Zero. I care more about finding out what's true, not who just happens to be well respected by a majority.

Call a turd for what it is. If I don't make friends along the way in doing so, once again, don't care. I'm not here to play nice with supposed highly respected individuals and pretend that by serving them platitudes I might get something in return. F that.

jackbombay August 16th, 2019 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5529727)
The rub comes when someone wants to force me to validate their choices...

Nobody is doing that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearheadgrrrl (Post 5529764)
I DIY'd the timing belt for less than $300 a new battery for even a Leaf would have been around $6000.

When 2003 TDI's were new, a new engine would have been $6000 too, but that didn't stop people from buying them.

IndigoBlueWagon August 17th, 2019 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU (Post 5529779)
Errors in Jalopnik articles are the norm. They're more clickbait than substance.

So true. Barely re-digested press releases, incomplete summaries of marketing events, plagiarized restatements of news stories...that is most of what you see in automotive web and blog articles. When I see links I rarely even bother to click through, because I know they're either incomplete, biased, or just plain wrong.

I've posted this before: If I needed a vehicle (and look at my sig, another vehicle is the last thing I need right how) I'd consider an EV for daily driving. A Chevy Bolt would get the job done for me. However, it's hard to justify spending $36K on a Bolt when my 17 year old Jetta Wagon does the job better, costs about $.07/mile for fuel, and is fun to drive. Insurance is cheap, excise tax is nothing, and it has a manual transmission, which I still prefer by far. It's most likely fully depreciated. Purchasing or leasing a new EV can't come close to that car's overall cost.

turbocharged798 August 17th, 2019 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdijarhead (Post 5529727)
I don’t know that there is hatred. Just impatience and annoyance with those who would worship at the feet of Muskie and think that he and they have all the answers for questions that many of us just don’t care about.

I think several people here drive an electric vehicle and this is America, last time I looked. You can drive any car you want and think any way you wish. The rub comes when someone wants to force me to validate their choices, I prefer diesel and this is a diesel forum.

If someone feels compelled to “crap post” about EV’s on a diesel forum expect to “inhale some diesel smoke.” (Get some blowback)

Bingo, this is TDIclub, not Teslaclub or EVclub. The site resources are to support the discussion of TDIs not EVs. A certain person above should have been banned off the site a long time ago but somehow keeps going wasting bandwidth. :rolleyes:


Yet another diesel discussion thread ruined by this EV shill.

gearheadgrrrl August 17th, 2019 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5529787)
Nobody is doing that.



When 2003 TDI's were new, a new engine would have been $6000 too, but that didn't stop people from buying them.


And provided you change the timing belt etc. when called for, it's pretty unlikely you'll need to spend $6k for a new engine. With an electric car the battery life is around 10 years, you might get lucky and get 12 before you have to lay out $6k or more for a new battery. That's why the price of a used early Leaf is largely determined by it's remaining battery capacity.

turbobrick240 August 17th, 2019 10:21

I can see why nwdiver is somewhat of a lightning rod for unpleasant comments in this diesel forum, but we're better than that, right? We shouldn't fault the guy for acting on his convictions. Just ignore him if you don't like what he has to say. No need to be nasty about it.

donDavide August 17th, 2019 11:43

I saw a leaf plugged in at Sonic the other day, not even a charging station, I just laughed knowing i didn't need fuel for several days.

vwxyzero August 17th, 2019 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobrick240 (Post 5529892)
I can see why nwdiver is somewhat of a lightning rod for unpleasant comments in this diesel forum, but we're better than that, right? We shouldn't fault the guy for acting on his convictions. Just ignore him if you don't like what he has to say. No need to be nasty about it.

This. I totally agree with you, but full disclosure I also drive an electric Fiat 500e daily and two of my TDI's are up on blocks.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Matt-98AHU August 17th, 2019 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5529819)
So true. Barely re-digested press releases, incomplete summaries of marketing events, plagiarized restatements of news stories...that is most of what you see in automotive web and blog articles. When I see links I rarely even bother to click through, because I know they're either incomplete, biased, or just plain wrong.

I've posted this before: If I needed a vehicle (and look at my sig, another vehicle is the last thing I need right how) I'd consider an EV for daily driving. A Chevy Bolt would get the job done for me. However, it's hard to justify spending $36K on a Bolt when my 17 year old Jetta Wagon does the job better, costs about $.07/mile for fuel, and is fun to drive. Insurance is cheap, excise tax is nothing, and it has a manual transmission, which I still prefer by far. It's most likely fully depreciated. Purchasing or leasing a new EV can't come close to that car's overall cost.

I've considered a Fiat 500e because they're so cheap on the used market, and according to VeeDubTDI, they did a good job of ticking the right boxes for longevity of an EV drivetrain. In particular proper thermal management of the batteries. Really good bang for the buck, just a very short range.

But the fact that I can't charge at home is making it a hard sell at the moment. Just not in that position right now.

But, I have driven a 500e and while on the highway it was a little underwhelming, around town it's a total riot. Go-kart like steering, plenty of torque to get up and go, park it anywhere, and my long torso actually fit comfortably enough, which is increasingly rare these days.

Instead, I'll keep on fixing up whatever random TDI people in the area give up on and are willing to let go for next to nothing and if the stable gets too large, sell one... or two. But that's also me, being that I can fix my own, I have a hard time justifying spending the money on something new and get hammered by the depreciation. I'm not in the majority with that one I'm sure.

jackbombay August 17th, 2019 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearheadgrrrl (Post 5529882)
And provided you change the timing belt etc. when called for, it's pretty unlikely you'll need to spend $6k for a new engine.
With an electric car the battery life is around 10 years...

10 years? So people are driving 40k miles a year? See Casioqv's post below.

The Leaf is an electric car which seems to have battery life issues which seems to be why you have singled out the leaf as your example of electric cars, stacking the deck in your favor. A more broad look at EV battery life paints a different picture though. Also, as the technology matures battery life will only get better.

FWIW, I bought my 2003 TDI Jetta Wagon new, no plans to sell it, but I also think EV tech is really cool stuff and look forward to watching it evolve over the coming years. I'm sure at some point in my life I'll own an EV, but I don't need to buy one now as currently my vehicle needs are met.

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529444)
So if EV batteries were used like cell phone batteries at full charge-discharge, they'd only last 40k miles, but I would expect around 400k life from an EV with proper software and/or an owner that carefully manages charge levels. That seems to be consistent with what high mileage modern EVs are reporting as shown in the post above (400k battery life). This would likely double again to ~800k mile life if you do only short trips in a small town and drop the full charge level via software to 75% of full capacity or so.


casioqv August 17th, 2019 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5529919)
The Leaf is an electric car which seems to have battery life issues which seems to be why you have singled out the leaf as your example of electric cars, stacking the deck in your favor. A more broad look at EV battery life paints a different picture though. Also, as the technology matures battery life will only get better.

FWIW, I bought my 2003 TDI Jetta Wagon new, no plans to sell it, but I also think EV tech is really cool stuff and look forward to watching it evolve over the coming years. I'm sure at some point in my life I'll own an EV, but I don't need to buy one now as currently my vehicle needs are met.


Yea, the leaf seems to have thermal issues which kill the batteries. I'm surprised the e-Golf doesn't seem to, since they didn't include any battery cooling system. On the e-golf forum one guy tracked his battery degradation level and saw 2% capacity loss per year.


If you're still living in the mountains, that's a pretty rough environment for an EV... cold temps plus steep grades drastically reduce the range.

tikal August 17th, 2019 20:22

The cost of fuel to move our passenger vehicles is too low currently in the USA to make 'EVs show up in the radar' in the foreseeable future.

Ok so Tesla sells all the vehicles they make and so does GM/Ford/Toyota/etc. sell every huge (and not so huge) SUV/truck they make. So what? What conclusion are you reaching with this comparison? What is the point? Millions and millions and millions of vehicles that do routinely 20 MPG, ok sorry 15 MPG vs thousands and thousands of sedans (plus a few SUVs) that do above 100 MPG!

I am not sure I understand the logic of the poster (#8).

jackbombay August 17th, 2019 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529975)
Yea, the leaf seems to have thermal issues which kill the batteries. I'm surprised the e-Golf doesn't seem to, since they didn't include any battery cooling system. On the e-golf forum one guy tracked his battery degradation level and saw 2% capacity loss per year.

Thanks for the info!

The average lifespan of cars in the US 11.7 years and around 175k miles, so if the battery does "only" make it to 200,000 miles there's a good chance that is 25,000 miles longer than it needed to last.

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529975)
If you're still living in the mountains, that's a pretty rough environment for an EV... cold temps plus steep grades drastically reduce the range.

Yea, still in the mountains, but I have a garage that is heated by a greenhouse, rarely goes below 40* in there. I'm totally happy with my TDI still, and by the time I do end up with an electric car I'll likely not be living here anymore.

El Dobro August 18th, 2019 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by casioqv (Post 5529975)
If you're still living in the mountains, that's a pretty rough environment for an EV... cold temps plus steep grades drastically reduce the range.

Al least you're getting regen going down the mountain. :D

vwxyzero August 18th, 2019 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Dobro (Post 5530063)
Al least you're getting regen going down the mountain. :D

You'd be really surprised to see how well that actually works! [emoji2]

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

vwxyzero August 18th, 2019 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU (Post 5529914)
I've considered a Fiat 500e because they're so cheap on the used market, and according to VeeDubTDI, they did a good job of ticking the right boxes for longevity of an EV drivetrain. In particular proper thermal management of the batteries. Really good bang for the buck, just a very short range.


Spot on, I did a ton of research before buying mine used (lease return.) They learned from all the early electric Mini mistakes, and it's a great city car and that's all I need right now. I can run all over LA all day long and plug it in at home. Done. It's definitely not a road trip car, at least not yet.

A friend has one with Abarth wheels and tires, he looses and average distance of about 5 miles per charge, but the handling on the freeway is far superior to mine, so much so that I'm considering it when it's time for new tires.

I have no interest in converting anybody here, but with something like 16 States in the Union that have all adopted CARB standards auto dealers have to sell zero emission vehicles or they're out of the market in the states that comply.

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jmodge August 18th, 2019 17:31

Caught something on TV about tax breaks being deleted and registration fees going up on EV’s to make up for missing fuel tax revenue

SilverGhost August 19th, 2019 10:20

I hate to rain on anybody's parade, but I heard from somewhat reliable sources, that part of the legal settlement between Volkswagen and various government agencies was they were NOT to sell diesels in US anymore.

I have not gone over the court settlement to verify these claims, but trust the source enough to take their word for it. Besides, it tracks with the powers that be and their opinions of diesels (in govn't not VW).

Jason

tdi54 August 19th, 2019 10:27

May be off topic but I see more than my share of Tesla's on southern california freeways. However, many of which are with open windows on hot california days; perhaps they prefer getting baked under the excruciating sun so that they do not sacrifice the meager amount of distance their EV's can cover.?? I don't know, but I can say, while they seemingly are suffering (and breathing highly polluted air), I pass by them with my 600+ per tank Jetta effortlessly with the comfort of ice cold ac.

casioqv August 19th, 2019 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdi54 (Post 5530360)
perhaps they prefer getting baked under the excruciating sun so that they do not sacrifice the meager amount of distance their EV's can cover.??.


I doubt it- running the A/C drops the range about 10-15%, so pretty much any Tesla will still have 200-300 miles of range with the A/C blasting. There's plenty of regular gasoline cars on the market that have under 350 miles range with a full tank, and they don't get charged to full every night...


In my e-Golf I've only done that once or twice when we forgot to plug it in to charge the night before, so I didn't have my usual buffer of having twice the range needed for the trip I am taking.

jackbombay August 19th, 2019 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdi54 (Post 5530360)
(and breathing highly polluted air)

Oh yea, the air inside a car with the windows rolled up is totally clean air, it is nothing like the air outside the car.

vwxyzero August 20th, 2019 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5530517)
Oh yea, the air inside a car with the windows rolled up is totally clean air, it is nothing like the air outside the car.

LOL

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oilhammer August 20th, 2019 03:23

You'd think Tesla owners would want to smell their own farts anyway. ;)

(reference to a South Park episode, for those that don't get it)

I have no "hatred" of anything, I am just tired of listening to it here on a diesel website, aside from threads specifically placed for that topic. Once nwdriver posts, in ANY thread, it becomes a shill for EVs and how the planet is going to implode, and we are all idiots, yada-yada-yada. He just cannot grasp anything outside of his own little pie in the sky world. I choose to think that we TDI owners are actually far more "green" than a lot of other Americans, and we shouldn't be beat up on because we have chosen to drive a 50 MPG car instead of a 15 MPG car as being "not enough". I think taking care of something old(er), and efficient, is the ultimate recycling. And if it works for me, and others, then so be it. To each his own.

IndigoBlueWagon August 20th, 2019 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer (Post 5530530)
I think taking care of something old(er), and efficient, is the ultimate recycling.

Our a superior way of being "green." Few take the raw materials and energy that it takes to fabricate and assemble a car into consideration when totaling the car's carbon footprint. Or disposal, for that matter.

I maintain that driving my Jetta half a million miles is far more ecologically sound than changing cars every three years, or even driving an EV for 10 years but ending up with a something that's only eligible for a scrap yard.

kjclow August 20th, 2019 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Mayercik (Post 5529371)
I'm with IBW that EVs are not carrying their share of the "road tax" burden, since that's levied through purchase of fuels they don't use. This is likely to become a LOT more interesting when the all-electric tractor-trailer cabs start appearing on the roads, since diesel tractor-trailers buy a LOT of fuel. There's been no real discussion about how to account for the "gas tax" revenue lost to EVs, other than some hare-brained silliness about GPS trackers being forced on the owners, and it needs to start happening SOON.

In most states, the taxes collected from fuel sales account for less than half of the needs for infrastructure support. The remaining needs are mostly made up from property taxes or in some cases special sales taxes. So the people we ought to be going after to get more tax dollars are the apartment renters. E-vehicles don't make enough of a ripple in the pond yet to matter to the fuel tax issue.

I'm a few days late to this thread so if my post is a repeat of what others have already said, I'm sorry.

bhtooefr August 20th, 2019 06:40

Apartment renters indirectly pay property tax, FWIW - the building owners pay it, and will therefore pass it on to renters in the form of increased rent.

IndigoBlueWagon August 20th, 2019 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5530574)
Apartment renters indirectly pay property tax, FWIW - the building owners pay it, and will therefore pass it on to renters in the form of increased rent.

Exactly

bizzle August 20th, 2019 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow (Post 5530572)
In most states, the taxes collected from fuel sales account for less than half of the needs for infrastructure support. The remaining needs are mostly made up from property taxes or in some cases special sales taxes. So the people we ought to be going after to get more tax dollars are the apartment renters. E-vehicles don't make enough of a ripple in the pond yet to matter to the fuel tax issue.

I'm a few days late to this thread so if my post is a repeat of what others have already said, I'm sorry.

If the infrastructure is underfunded then the fuel tax intended to pay for it should be raised.

scooperhsd August 20th, 2019 09:47

EV's might make sense - strictly around town. Out here on the great Plains - a drive to anywhere that I need to go is at least 200 miles. I can easily go there AND back in my 2000 TDI Beetle - I prefer to refill my 2015 Golf when leaving so I don't have to fill up on the way home.


I get so many miles per tank (over 600) and drive my Beetle so little right now that I have to start thinking about winter fuel NOW - in the middle of August. I'd imagine that after my next tank, I'll think about putting PowerService white in about the middle of November (along with topping off the tank) and that will take me to Febuary. We drive the Golf more than that - but I still get 400 mile tanks on it.


EV's aren't paying their way on the transportation infrastructure of this country yet. It will be worse if the tractors for 18 wheelers start to be electric. I can see a combination of the GPS trackers for EVs AND separately metered charging stations to recover the true costs of EVs.


Part of the Infrastructure problem is that politicians keep taking money out of the vehicle taxes to use elsewhere.


And if electric drive is really so superior (I kind of doubt this), why don't large trucks adopt the same model as railroad engines - the petro motor is used to generate electricity that drives the wheels ?

Matt-98AHU August 20th, 2019 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGhost (Post 5530358)
I hate to rain on anybody's parade, but I heard from somewhat reliable sources, that part of the legal settlement between Volkswagen and various government agencies was they were NOT to sell diesels in US anymore.

I have not gone over the court settlement to verify these claims, but trust the source enough to take their word for it. Besides, it tracks with the powers that be and their opinions of diesels (in govn't not VW).

Jason

I have read most of the settlement, it in no way bars VW from selling diesels ever again, they just can't sell cheating diesels. The other part of the settlement was a required investment in developing not only EVs but also helping implement EV charging infrastructure as part of the penance... and there was a very large dollar figure attached to the required investment... Whole lotta zeros.

But it in no way states they can never sell new diesels again... anywhere. Just that any new diesels would have to go through the more stringent on road evaluation in order to get certification, which every diesel has had to do since the scandal now anyway...

kjclow August 20th, 2019 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5530574)
Apartment renters indirectly pay property tax, FWIW - the building owners pay it, and will therefore pass it on to renters in the form of increased rent.

Yes, but at a lower tax rate than the average home owner. At least in the areas that I've both owned a home and rented an apartment.

kjclow August 20th, 2019 11:30

As part of the conversation on replacing our JSW, when the time comes, both hybrids and E-vehicles are being discussed. If that day were today, I think we would end up with a Highlander hybrid. Gets about the same mileage as my Ram and will seat 7, when needed. I'd love an Atlas or Q7 diesel but doubt they'll be available when the extended warranty on the JSW runs out.

vwxyzero August 20th, 2019 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow (Post 5530635)
Yes, but at a lower tax rate than the average home owner. At least in the areas that I've both owned a home and rented an apartment.

This is complete BS. How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Homeowners property tax has always been lower than commercial real estate tax (which includes apparent buildings,) even in NC where one of my kids live.

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KITEWAGON August 20th, 2019 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 5530574)
Apartment renters indirectly pay property tax, FWIW - the building owners pay it, and will therefore pass it on to renters in the form of increased rent.


I probably shouldn't contribute to this off topic tangent, but the answer here is sort of yes and no. Property tax isn't exactly passed through. I rent apartments for whatever the market can bare. If rents are going down but taxes go up, I just absorb the hit and make less money. And if rents are going up and my taxes happen to go down then you can bet I'm keeping the extra money.

Now the taxes do impact the overall rental market, but for individual landlords it isn't like the rents are based on some kind of "cost +" formula. They are based on the rental market. And the property tax structure certainly impacts that market.

KITEWAGON August 20th, 2019 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU (Post 5529914)
I've considered a Fiat 500e because they're so cheap on the used market, and according to VeeDubTDI, they did a good job of ticking the right boxes for longevity of an EV drivetrain. In particular proper thermal management of the batteries. Really good bang for the buck, just a very short range.


Same, perfect for my commute. The issue that I have is that they are all in CA. I'd pretty much need to buy one there and have it shipped out here. Not more than a few EV's available around here and they aren't so cheap as CA.

vwxyzero August 20th, 2019 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by KITEWAGON (Post 5530673)
Same, perfect for my commute. The issue that I have is that they are all in CA. I'd pretty much need to buy one there and have it shipped out here. Not more than a few EV's available around here and they aren't so cheap as CA.

Well at least you got the thread back to cars.
California and Oregon, and soon to be any state that has either adopted, or plans to adopt CARB standards. Fiat, and I expect any other car manufacturer are required to, or will be required to sell a certain amount of zero emission vehicles or they're be out of business in the states that have and intend to adopt CARB - which is currently close to 16 States that either have or are in the process of adopting CARB. The dealer I bought mine from, who bought lease returns from Fiat in bulk was exporting them all over the country and into Europe. Unfortunately he retired and moved to Florida.

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El Dobro August 20th, 2019 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by KITEWAGON (Post 5530673)
Same, perfect for my commute. The issue that I have is that they are all in CA. I'd pretty much need to buy one there and have it shipped out here. Not more than a few EV's available around here and they aren't so cheap as CA.

I bought a Spark EV that just came off lease from Carvana. They delivered it right to the house.

jackbombay August 20th, 2019 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5530551)
Few take the raw materials and energy that it takes to fabricate and assemble a car into consideration when totaling the car's carbon footprint.

When my 2003 TDI was new people hit me with that several times, telling me that my TDI was actually terrible for the environment because of all the energy required to build it, but now its old enough than I can hold my chin high knowing that I'm doing the earth a favor by keeping "an old car on the road"?

And everybody that buys ALH Jettas now gets to wear the ever so esteemed crown of "environmental responsibility", but if it wasn't for people buying ALH Jettas new, there wouldn't be any for sale used now, it's the exact opposite of the chicken and the egg, we know used/old cars only exist because people purchase new cars, we know what came first, the new car.

I certainly see the logic that buying a new car is environmentally unfriendly, but it just doesn't hold true when the discussion is about high efficiency cars.


Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5530551)
driving an EV for 10 years but ending up with a something that's only eligible for a scrap yard.

Why would you scrap it after 10 years? EVs can be repaired just like ALH VWs!

Lightflyer1 August 20th, 2019 15:50

I must get huge environmental creds for my restored 1935 Ford then. Saved it from going to the crusher. Still in use after about 85 years.

vwxyzero August 20th, 2019 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5530706)
I must get huge environmental creds for my restored 1935 Ford then. Saved it from going to the crusher. Still in use after about 85 years.

Like the kids would say 'pics or it didn't happen'

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Tdijarhead August 20th, 2019 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 (Post 5530706)
I must get huge environmental creds for my restored 1935 Ford then. Saved it from going to the crusher. Still in use after about 85 years.


Extra credits if it’s diesel.

IndigoBlueWagon August 20th, 2019 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5530700)
When my 2003 TDI was new people hit me with that several times, telling me that my TDI was actually terrible for the environment because of all the energy required to build it.

I don't understand this. What makes people think that a TDI takes significantly more energy to build than a gasoline powered VW?

IndigoBlueWagon August 20th, 2019 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5530700)
But if it wasn't for people buying ALH Jettas new, there wouldn't be any for sale used now, it's the exact opposite of the chicken and the egg, we know used/old cars only exist because people purchase new cars, we know what came first, the new car.

Why would you scrap it after 10 years? EVs can be repaired just like ALH VWs?

I bought my ALH new. Although I've also bought a bunch of used ones, most of which had to be resurrected. Which brings me to the second point. I wasn't saying EVs had to be scrapped in 10 years, but a lot of owners care for their cars as if they will have used them up by that time, and the only economical outcome is to scrap them. You hear those discussions here all the time, "it will cost more to fix than the car is worth, so I'm walking away."

jackbombay August 20th, 2019 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5530721)
I don't understand this. What makes people think that a TDI takes significantly more energy to build than a gasoline powered VW?

They weren't referring specifically to the TDI aspect of my Jetta, just the fact that it was a new car, that I was a bad guy environmentally for buying a new car when I could have bought a used one.

jackbombay August 20th, 2019 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 5530724)
. I wasn't saying EVs had to be scrapped in 10 years, but a lot of owners care for their cars as if they will have used them up by that time, and the only economical outcome is to scrap them.

Ah, yea, 10 years was the average lifespan of a car in the US quite recently, it is actually up to 11.7 years now, but thats still pretty disappointing.

scooperhsd August 20th, 2019 18:00

Not me - I drive cars into the ground - the ultimate recycling. Sometimes even when the repair costs more than the car is worth ( my 5 speed conversion on the Beetle, for one example). I usually buy one new/ near new car per decade or so...



Beetle currently has 370,000+ miles, Golf is currently at 88,000 miles (it did about 8 months as an Uber vehicle).

jerryfreak August 20th, 2019 18:08

is this the same version of the EA288s in the US?

vwxyzero August 20th, 2019 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerryfreak (Post 5530749)
is this the same version of the EA288s in the US?

Donno, maybe you could go back to the original Tweet on Twitter that this whole article is based on and try to figure out what's up with that particular VW executive:

https://twitter.com/vwschweiz/status...497740288?s=19

But you might need to brush up on your German for all the backlash to that Tweet from the German regulatory body of tweeps. [emoji854]

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bizzle August 21st, 2019 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooperhsd (Post 5530614)
EV's might make sense - strictly around town. Out here on the great Plains - a drive to anywhere that I need to go is at least 200 miles. I can easily go there AND back in my 2000 TDI Beetle - I prefer to refill my 2015 Golf when leaving so I don't have to fill up on the way home.


I get so many miles per tank (over 600) and drive my Beetle so little right now that I have to start thinking about winter fuel NOW - in the middle of August. I'd imagine that after my next tank, I'll think about putting PowerService white in about the middle of November (along with topping off the tank) and that will take me to Febuary. We drive the Golf more than that - but I still get 400 mile tanks on it.


EV's aren't paying their way on the transportation infrastructure of this country yet. It will be worse if the tractors for 18 wheelers start to be electric. I can see a combination of the GPS trackers for EVs AND separately metered charging stations to recover the true costs of EVs.


Part of the Infrastructure problem is that politicians keep taking money out of the vehicle taxes to use elsewhere.


And if electric drive is really so superior (I kind of doubt this), why don't large trucks adopt the same model as railroad engines - the petro motor is used to generate electricity that drives the wheels ?

Your situation seems like a perfect candidate to score a sub $15K loaded eGolf and then renting a car for those out of town trips.

It's less obvious when the vehicles already owned are fully paid for, but it's worth checking if something like that pencils out (if curious, no point if that's not the only reason).

dslman August 21st, 2019 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5529273)
When the elctric car thing bombs ....

Ha ha ha ha!
I'm sorry, but this made me laugh! I was just thinking what happens if nobody buys all these electric vehicles? I can see the headlines a few years from now " Electric car/truck sales much lower than predicted ... After all those billions of dollars invested!
I believe Electric would completely take over in a heartbeat if they could get rid of the batteries all together & power them some other way, such as Thorium.
Batteries are HEAVY, messy, Expensive, Wear out, get HOT, have too short a range & still cost a fortune. What happens to your 300 mile range when you have to pull a trailer? You loose almost 1/3 so 300 miles of range becomes only 100 miles of range pulling a trailer.Watch This Video
.

IndigoBlueWagon August 21st, 2019 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Dolan (Post 5529273)
When the elctric car thing bombs

I've been saying for a while that I believe EV sales are at, or near, peak. Cost, practicality, and drivers' resistance to try new things will keep them in a niche, if that. Low fuel prices aren't helping, either, nor are companies trying to sell sedans to a market that's almost totally abandoned cars for SUVs and trucks.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Hwycruiser August 21st, 2019 19:31

I have also heard that there is not enough natural resources on our planet to make enough batteries for everyone to drive an electric vehicle.

jackbombay August 21st, 2019 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hwycruiser (Post 5531034)
I have also heard that there is not enough natural resources on our planet to make enough batteries for everyone to drive an electric vehicle.

Of the 8 billion people on the planet only a billion or so can afford a new car, so we don't need to worry about making enough for everyone on the planet, right?

vwxyzero August 21st, 2019 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackbombay (Post 5531041)
Of the 8 billion people on the planet only a billion or so can afford a new car, so we don't need to worry about making enough for everyone on the planet, right?

[emoji106]

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kjclow August 22nd, 2019 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hwycruiser (Post 5531034)
I have also heard that there is not enough natural resources on our planet to make enough batteries for everyone to drive an electric vehicle.

That would be based on today's battery technology. Many companies are working on lighter weight, faster charging, and longer use batteries. What weighs a 1000 pounds (just a number) today may weigh less than 100 pounds tomorrow. Just look at lead acid batteries compared to lithium.

IndigoBlueWagon August 22nd, 2019 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjclow (Post 5531103)
That would be based on today's battery technology. Many companies are working on lighter weight, faster charging, and longer use batteries.

We've been hearing that for a long, long time. Just saying.

I was reading the current Car & Driver last night and observed that of all the vehicles tested (Mercedes AMG, new Explorer ST, Silverado Diesel, Land Rover Evoque, Mercedes GL, Porsche 911) got actual FE right around 20 MPG. In a recent comparison test of mid-sized SUVS (BMW X5, Audi Q7, Mercedes GLE), and they all got FE in the low teens in their test.

My point? Most of these cars (and trucks) sell well, indicating that this kind of FE is totally acceptable in the current environment. Not to people here, but we're not the mainstream. This is why diesels and EVs have an uphill battle.


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