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-   -   BHW Balance Shaft Module replacement (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=233651)

MOGolf December 16th, 2008 19:06

BHW Balance Shaft Module replacement
 
This thread is only for this topic. If you want to post about your car makng noises, see the links to other threads below and post in one of them.

As we learned from bad experiences, the BHW engine was equipped with at the factory with a chain driven balance shaft module. Chains and tensioners break, teeth strip off the sprockets, and nasty things happen to the engine.

VW obviously learned of this prone-to-failure design. Every engine they have with this design outside of North America got gear-driven balance shaft module replacements (not recalled, just replacement in the parts catalog and system). Finally they made one for the North American market BHW engine.

They issued a technical document to notify dealership shops of the replacement. However, they have not (as of this writing) actually made the information available via eBahn (the site they point to for everyone else to get repair info). The technical document merely states to refer to the repair manual for installation instructions. As of this writing, I am not aware that the information is actually there for North American VW repair technicians (I'm not one so I can't personally verify).

Oilhammer, who works at www.cardocautomotive.com, was alerted to the replacement parts, and less-than-helpful bulletin. I was able to track down the repair procedure published elsewhere in the world. That procedure was lacking in some steps.

We obtained the necessary parts, and together we installed them on my 2004 Passat Variant. The document link below provides a PDF with the repair procedure.

It is a supplement to other repair procedures that need to be followed as a part of the balance shaft module replacement. The other procedures are documented in the repair manual for the Passats. These include removing the front bumper cover, putting the lock carrier in service position or removing entirely, suspending the engine, timing belt replacement, and manipulating the subframe. This document does describe the necessary steps to take for loosening the subframe enough to remove the oil pan.

Read through the procedure. If you do not understand it, or do not have the other repair information, we do NOT recommend that you undertake the procedure. Failure to reassemble the car correctly can lead to poor handling which might lead to an accident. Failure to correctly reassemble the engine could also lead to a catastrophic failure.

You have been warned. You take on all responsibility for following this procedure, and all consequences of working on your car.

Having written that, I have to say I am very pleased with the outcome. My engine was making a lot of noise. It had very noticeable chain noise, though nothing terribly wrong was found on disassembly. The engine has virtually no lower engine noise after the surgery. I don't have to worry about imminent chain failure.

Refer to the following threads for further information about balance shaft issues:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=223941
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=202297

I may revise the document at any time. Please get a fresh copy before undertaking the repair on any vehicle.

This procedure can be followed as a guideline for the other engines of the world that got this replacement design. However the parts vary depending on the engine. Vehicle disassembly/reassembly may also vary.

BHW Balance Shaft Module Replacement Procedure PDF

This document is a fairly large size (1377.8kb).

Edit to add:
World IMPEX has put together a kit price of the parts for those of you who are unable to get to oilhammer for help.
Geared Balance shaft module kit

www.advancedautomotion.com can supply parts too.

Bora Parts offers kits.

I have no association with these companies.

oilhammer December 16th, 2008 19:18

Nice write up! :)

Growler December 16th, 2008 19:34

ooo now I gotta go for another ride in your wagon to hear the difference


nice writeup Glen/Brian!

auntulna December 16th, 2008 20:05

Those of us with mortal mechanical skills are humbled by your collective tour de force in figuring this problem out, finding the corrective parts, and replacing them. Needless to say, I won't be doin' the fixin' around here Bobalouie! I will be in touch for eventual scheduling for the grand overhaul.

aja8888 December 16th, 2008 21:51

Glen & Brian: Thanks for your efforts and the fine write up. ;)

Tony

leicaman December 16th, 2008 22:18

I read through the procedure and all I can say is wow....you guys have out guru'd yourselves here.

senez December 17th, 2008 05:39

The baking part is what gets me.

What? Like cookies? ;)

DeliveryValve December 17th, 2008 05:51

Great procedure and write up MOGolf and oilhammer! Big THANK YOU!

I dig the specialized tools: :D
SST MOTOOL-GHOOO1
SST OHTOOL-BJOOO1
SST MOTOOL-GHOOO2
SST OHTOOL-BJOOO2



Question: I am not clear on the procedure of installing the new gear on the crank. Does the heated gear expand enough to freely slide on with your hands? Or do you need to tap it in place with the suggested seal installer?
Also, was there a particular orientation the gear is installed? Or you just choose any position and lock it in?

MOGolf December 17th, 2008 06:38

Yes you bake the gear like cookies. On the middle rack to ensure even heating. VW's procedure says to use a "commerically available hotplate". I prefer the oven. A hotplate will heat one side more than the other.

The gear slid right on with my gloved hands. The seal installer is just there to hold it with even pressure all around while it cools. You don't want it cooling at an angle.

No orientation for the gear. It is round ;) and not keyed. The procedure for pressing the intermediate gear into place ensures that all the teeth mesh correctly.

maktas December 17th, 2008 07:48

MoGolf,

You didn't make mention of the hex shaft. Did you do anything to it?

leicaman December 17th, 2008 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by maktas
MoGolf,

You didn't make mention of the hex shaft. Did you do anything to it?

I suspect that because of the geared setup there will be less lash pulsing due to the better integrity of the geared vs the chain setup.

MOGolf December 17th, 2008 09:33

We removed the hex shaft, found it labeled with the 'D' part number. I put it back in. Now we can find out how well this holds up over time. There is no written track record of geared balance shaft modules and the hex shaft oil pump drive that I can find.

The old BS module had an unlabeled hex shaft. No A and no D. No VW nor Audi symbols either.

maktas December 17th, 2008 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOGolf
We removed the hex shaft, found it labeled with the 'D' part number. I put it back in. Now we can find out how well this holds up over time. There is no written track record of geared balance shaft modules and the hex shaft oil pump drive that I can find.

The old BS module had an unlabeled hex shaft. No A and no D. No VW nor Audi symbols either.

So that I understand, the new BS asm comes with a new hex shaft? Or did you use the old one? It is interesting you mentioned the noise was eliminated, does this mean the hex shaft has minimal impact on the noise issue?

MOGolf December 17th, 2008 09:45

We used the new hex shaft that came with the new module. The module includes a new oil pump, hex shaft, balance shafts, bearings for shafts, intermediate gear, thrust washers for the gear, and gear bolt.

To my ears, the noises from my car were coming from the chain drive.

maktas December 17th, 2008 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOGolf
We used the new hex shaft that came with the new module. The module includes a new oil pump, hex shaft, balance shafts, bearings for shafts, intermediate gear, thrust washers for the gear, and gear bolt.

To my ears, the noises from my car were coming from the chain drive.

Ok.. I see, thanks!

I hope VW issues an officiall TSB soon... I want to use my extended warranty before it runs out. I also wonder if extended warranty work can be done by non-VW dealer shops?

maktas December 17th, 2008 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by senez
The baking part is what gets me.

What? Like cookies? ;)

Yes, its gone past what is called a "mechanical fit" to a "atomic fit". VW designed the tolerance to be slightly undersized according to the material's thermal expansion coefficient. Once the critical temp is reached, the gear slips on and when it cools, it is as good as welded on. There is nothing like atomic bond forces to hold something together.

KALaBenne December 17th, 2008 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by maktas
Once the critical temp is reached, the gear slips on and when it cools, it is as good as welded on.

So I'm assuming the critical (installation) temperature is far above what would be experienced in a normal warmed-up engine?

edit: I read the PDF and I sure hope my engine never gets up to 350F

Thanks for all the hard work MoGolf and oilhammer!!

aja8888 December 17th, 2008 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by KALaBenne
So I'm assuming the critical (installation) temperature is far above what would be experienced in a normal warmed-up engine?

edit: I read the PDF and I sure hope my engine never gets up to 350F

Thanks for all the hard work MoGolf and oilhammer!!

Well, if your engine did heat up to 350F, both the shaft and the gear would too. There would be no loosening of the gear on the shaft then.:) However, other not-so-nice things would become of interest at that temperature!;)

samspock December 17th, 2008 11:27

Wow, that's a nice writeup. After reading it I almost feel like I could do this myself. Good thing I know better. I like my car, I want to keep it.

vw4life December 17th, 2008 11:46

Yah, made me question if my local VW gurus can do it [well] too. Makes me want to take that 3600 km trip to OH's shop.

engineerorange December 17th, 2008 12:53

This is a thing of pure beauty. I am glad it's only 6 hours to oilhammer for me. Only at 55k miles now, and no noise yet. But this will be done no later than 80k on our passat.

aja8888 December 17th, 2008 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by engineerorange
This is a thing of pure beauty. I am glad it's only 6 hours to oilhammer for me. Only at 55k miles now, and no noise yet. But this will be done no later than 80k on our passat.

Mine has *noise* at 54K. My friend's 2005 TDI Passat wagon in Connecticut has *noise* at 31K. This is all over the park with respect to chain/tensioner wear and noise.

abctdi December 17th, 2008 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by maktas
So that I understand, the new BS asm comes with a new hex shaft? Or did you use the old one? It is interesting you mentioned the noise was eliminated, does this mean the hex shaft has minimal impact on the noise issue?

I would think that a gear system would 'preload' the hexshaft against its hexhole and eliminate any motion that could cause a strange noise.

GreasedLightnin December 17th, 2008 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by auntulna
Those of us with mortal mechanical skills are humbled by your collective tour de force in figuring this problem out, finding the corrective parts, and replacing them. Needless to say, I won't be doin' the fixin' around here Bobalouie! I will be in touch for eventual scheduling for the grand overhaul.

Brian and Glen. You two are truly tdi warriors. Hats off to you. I'll be making the trip to St. Louis soon.
Thanks so much for the peace of mind.
Rock on!:D

EJS December 18th, 2008 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreasedLightnin
Brian and Glen. You two are truly tdi warriors. Hats off to you.

Ditto - thanks so much for all the time & effort you guys put into this.

On the upside it would seem I have some of the tools required to do the job (MOTOOL-GH0002, OHTOOL-BJ0002, & OHTOOL-BJ0001)
- who'd a thunk.

Skivvies December 18th, 2008 16:04

MOGolf and OH, thanks for the initiative, dedication, and generosity in trying this setup and supplying us with these instructions.
Just as a heads up to those that will be purchasing the parts, I just placed an order for those parts listed in the procedure. For the big ticket balance shaft module, 22 are on order and should be sent from the manufacturer mid-January. 6 of these are spoken for as of yesterday. I don't know if this is fact, but this is what I was told by the VW parts dept.

outthere December 18th, 2008 19:07

Has anyone considered the following idea?

Find 6 B5 owners in your area. Buy 6 BS modules. Rent a shop for a weekend. Fly in OH/MOGolf for a weekend GTG and split/share costs.

It seems like it would be easier to fly them in and work on 6 cars at once than to have 6 cars drive a couple thousand miles RT for a repair.

I like my car and dont think its unreasonable to sink 2500-3000 bucks into a car that will make it last another 5 or more years. I'm not sure I can explain a 1700 mile road trip from MD to St. Louis though.

JungleDeath December 18th, 2008 19:18

I like the above idea but, what about their tools?

Smokerr December 18th, 2008 20:33

MOGolf and Oilhammer I can only say, my deepest admiration (and I don't give that out to anyone hardly ever).

I have now written NHTSA (two now) and VW of A (the CEO) letters as well as one to my congresswoman.

I would urge all others to do the same.

If we can't hep them with the immediate fight we can support them in other ways.

One thing I suggested is that if we have to have the timing belt done at 80k in order to change out the OP and BS, then they prorate that.

Lug_Nut December 19th, 2008 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokerr
One thing I suggested is that if we have to have the timing belt done at 80k in order to change out the OP and BS, then they prorate that.

Pro-rate what? The belt is reportedly now an 80k mile belt:( ...

see post #11
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=231467

or
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=229870

CsTDI December 19th, 2008 08:12

Aren't the service intervals established in the manual that come with the vehicle considered part of the sales contract, at least in good faith?

What if the reason that you bought a car was that the manual that came with a particular car, and confirmed by their service dept., told you that there was absolutely zero service on the car required until 100k and sometime after you purchase it, they revised it to say, that wasn't correct, the belt needs to be replaced at 80k... It seems to me that without official notification by the manufacturer that there is a manual change, at their cost, that they can't do this.

Lug_Nut December 19th, 2008 10:15

Then you go to court and sue for breach of contract, or intent to defraud, or loss of value or some other cause. They counter with their written "reserves the right to change specifications", statements in your copy of the manual and you're SOL.
If the dealer has provided a written conformance to suitability for purpose, such as a claimed zero maintenance construction) then the dealer, not VWoA, is the guarantor.

CsTDI December 19th, 2008 12:23

The services section of the manual is either important or it is not. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Court? Not me, it would cost me alot more to go to court than the relative difference in changing the belt 20k early. However, a class action over damages, if enough occurred, could make a difference.

I guess I am just coming to terms that the big VW corporation with the great commercials, vehicles, likeability, and loyal followers, protect themselves with contracts (on our behalf no doubt :rolleyes: ) and who already has a well paved method of communicating with purchasers of its vehicles is not very likeable or loyal themselves when it comes to letting purchasers know about a known concern that has caused them to significantly change a spec. that can bury your car prior to its expected lifetime. (same with the BS assembly)

How about a letter that says based on service dept. data, customer concerns, belt manufacturer recommendations,... "we are revising our specs. so change your belt at 80k not 100k" Is that too much to ask? I suspect that they would rather not draw attention to this issue and are probably betting that the "class" of belts will make it to 100k.

I don't think the "let's not give them heartburn" dept. made this decision

owr084 December 19th, 2008 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by outthere
Has anyone considered the following idea?

Find 6 B5 owners in your area. Buy 6 BS modules. Rent a shop for a weekend. Fly in OH/MOGolf for a weekend GTG and split/share costs.

It seems like it would be easier to fly them in and work on 6 cars at once than to have 6 cars drive a couple thousand miles RT for a repair.

I like my car and dont think its unreasonable to sink 2500-3000 bucks into a car that will make it last another 5 or more years. I'm not sure I can explain a 1700 mile road trip from MD to St. Louis though.

I've thought about that too when the time comes.

OH/MOGolf - what kind of facility would it take? How many lifts would be needed to complete 6 changeouts? Does the work need to all be done on a lift? If so, then 3 lifts would be needed for two days?

TheGrove December 19th, 2008 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by owr084
I've thought about that too when the time comes.

OH/MOGolf - what kind of facility would it take? How many lifts would be needed to complete 6 changeouts? Does the work need to all be done on a lift? If so, then 3 lifts would be needed for two days?

Read the thread B5 BHW engine noise Revisited. OH goes into detail there about his tools and that he won't do the work without them and it is prohibitive to ship his multiple chests of tools. This is one of the big reasons for the Feb weekend meeting in St Louis so he can do a bunch of cars and have access to his full assortment of tools - beyond what is required for just this job.

oilhammer December 19th, 2008 17:54

It is much more realistic for people to bring their cars to me as Bill stated.

Skidor December 19th, 2008 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGrove
Read the thread B5 BHW engine noise Revisited. OH goes into detail there about his tools and that he won't do the work without them and it is prohibitive to ship his multiple chests of tools. This is one of the big reasons for the Feb weekend meeting in St Louis so he can do a bunch of cars and have access to his full assortment of tools - beyond what is required for just this job.

Anyone own a shipping business? I wonder how many B5's we could fit on a trailer....

abctdi December 20th, 2008 07:24

Believe it or not, I'd rather drop it off at the dealer under warranty. I'm still at 54k miles and live across the country from the gurus.

DeliveryValve December 20th, 2008 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidor
Anyone own a shipping business? I wonder how many B5's we could fit on a trailer....

I've been wondering for a while too and would like to go that route if I need it. I am at 55,000 miles and have another 45,000 miles left on my warranty. Hopefully a needed warranty fix would be corrected with the right parts. :confused:

aja8888 December 20th, 2008 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve
I've been wondering for a while too and would like to go that route if I need it. I am at 55,000 miles and have another 45,000 miles left on my warranty. Hopefully a needed warranty fix would be corrected with the right parts. :confused:

I wonder what kind of failure would get you into the extended warranty? Chain break/destroy engine?

Sprocket December 20th, 2008 09:08

I'm wondering as well. If the chain fails though and since they aren't made anymore, wouldn't they have to pony up and pay for the new gear design? Here's another question, does it have to fail in order for them to cover it? Mine is making noise now, is that enough or do I have to have a complete failure?

Route 66 December 21st, 2008 19:12

VW and the extended warranty companies deal only with failures not speculation. The shop that put in my BS had told me that if the warranty company did not cover whatever that problem was that I was looking at $1000.00 to drop the oil pan.

maktas December 21st, 2008 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonh
I'm wondering as well. If the chain fails though and since they aren't made anymore, wouldn't they have to pony up and pay for the new gear design? Here's another question, does it have to fail in order for them to cover it? Mine is making noise now, is that enough or do I have to have a complete failure?


This is the dilemma I am in. My extended warranty will expire mid next year, so I plan to do a last ditch effort and sit down with my stealership's service manager and make him undestand this issue and argue that there is engine noise that was not solved with a new water pump and say that the BS has to be changed. Its worth a shot, but I think the better senario is if the chain breaks BEFORE the extended warranty runs out.

The bottom line is that VW needs to stand up and admit they put a junk BS design into an otherwise great engine, and issue a TSB so that we can all get the BS that needed be in in the first place. This is exactly like my old 1994 Intrepid.... the 3.3L engine was excellent, the issue was the the junk 41TE/42LE tranny that needed an overhaul every 60k.

maktas December 21st, 2008 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Route 66
VW and the extended warranty companies deal only with failures not speculation. The shop that put in my BS had told me that if the warranty company did not cover whatever that problem was that I was looking at $1000.00 to drop the oil pan.

How did you get them to change the BS, did you just argue that there was a noise?

Route 66 December 22nd, 2008 09:39

Originally, I heard this noise. It was incorrectly diagnosed from three separate VW Dealerships as the power steering pump. I felt that they were wrong. So, a friend recommended an unknown shop to me that he had used in the past and was happy with. I took my car there and once the BS was off, he knew it was the hex shaft. So he called Fidelity (the warranty company). They sent someone to the shop to confirm the damage and give the ok to proceed with the repair.

maktas December 22nd, 2008 11:51

Not to clutter this thread, however, could someone post a detailed diagram of the BS assembly? I am curious to understand more about the parts involved.

oilhammer December 22nd, 2008 12:11

Those diagrams have been posted in the other threads, and there are several pictures as well.

maktas December 22nd, 2008 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Those diagrams have been posted in the other threads, and there are several pictures as well.


Well I found this on this page on the other thread by MoGolf, I would love to see what part#/description each of the numbers are associated with (on the Bill of Material) then using the new parts list for the module I can cross reference to see all of the parts we are talking about. I am guessing its parts 1-> 4...18->28. There is no chain so I am guessing this is pretty close to the new BHW BS module.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3629/BR...y_overview.JPG

oilhammer December 22nd, 2008 17:05

There is a detailed parts list in MOGolf's pdf document on the procedure. Much of it is hardware. The 3 main pieces are the 'housing' (which is the BS module with oil pump) and 2 gears. Everything else is hardware, and the front crank seal.

All the parts in question that get replaced are in that picture basically. But that is NOT a picture of a BHW engine. But it is the same basic layout.

MOGolf December 22nd, 2008 18:19

The equivalent parts of 1, 2, and 18-32 in that picture are covered in the parts list in the PDF. There is no 3-4 for the BHW module. The new BS module includes 1, the equivalent parts of 18-24 (oil pump and its pick up), and 27-31. The various sized bolts (2 and 26), and gears (25 and 32) are listed separately.

maktas December 22nd, 2008 19:17

Excellent, thank-you guys. I finally got around to looking at the PDF, we all appreciate the work you guys have done.

leicaman December 22nd, 2008 21:44

What I think we should start is a list of people who are qualified (ie gurus) who have the technical experitise who can replace the oil pump chain with the oil pump gear assembly. We all know that Oilhammer and MoGolf have done the procedure and are of course fully qualified. As folks get 'em fixed, we should make a note of who really knows how on earth to get this operation done properly. I don't think it would be out of the way to make it a sticky or something on that order.

Route 66 December 22nd, 2008 21:49

I was thinking Jason TDI.

MOGolf December 24th, 2008 12:49

PDF updated
 
I updated the PDF with minor revisions. Reduced picture size of BS module installed to properly fit the page, included pictures of T10053 seal installer and 3393 subframe alignment pins.

Noted that I need to get pictures of using these tools.

rarmstrong December 26th, 2008 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888
Mine has *noise* at 54K. My friend's 2005 TDI Passat wagon in Connecticut has *noise* at 31K. This is all over the park with respect to chain/tensioner wear and noise.

Can anyone describe what the said noise sounds like? My 04 has 78k on it so far...been a decent car so far with only a few things while under warranty... motor mounts, AC relay...and then alternator went out after warranty. I'm wondering if I too will have the bs problem.

Thanks!

MOGolf December 26th, 2008 07:50

Refer to the other threads.

cspeter8 December 26th, 2008 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOGolf

Edit to add:
World IMPEX has put together a kit price of the parts for those of you who are unable to get to oilhammer for help.
Geared Balance shaft module kit

I have no association with the company.

Cool. A question: How much would purchase of all the machined special service tools cost? I could not find the tool with part# 3359 at www.metalnerd.com. Is the cost high enough to entertain the idea of 'renting' the tools for shipment from anyone who has them already?

MOGolf December 26th, 2008 18:10

http://www.metalnerd.com/cat14.htm Second from the bottom (as of this posting).

I personally won't rent tools to anyone. The total cost of tools listed (not counting the usual sockets, wrenches, Torx bits, XZN bits, engine support, oven, blocks of wood, and heat resistant gloves) is in the neighborhood of $600 (plus or minus a few) plus shipping and tax (where applicable) and depending on sources.

DickSilver December 28th, 2008 14:25

Oilhammer: Is the kit sold by World Impex (IMPEX SKU # 935619) that you refer to in your original post, the same kit sold thru dealers? Or is it separately sourced, so as to not depend on VWOA's stocking strategy?

aja8888 December 28th, 2008 15:12

FYI: World Impex Kit:

IMPEX SKU # 935619
BHW MODULE REPAIR KIT


Included In Kit
03G 103 295 Q differential case with gears, shafts and oil pump
03G 105 212 C replacement gear for crankshaft
03G 103 305 C balance shaft drive gear
4- N 911 213 01 bolts to attach balance shaft drive gear
5- N 106 014 02 balance shaft bolts
N 910 512 01 balance shaft bolt
N 911 234 01 bolt for balance shaft front near drive gear
N 909 775 02 bolt for balance shaft front near oil pump
038 103 085 E crankshaft seal
045 105 229 crankshaft pulley bolt
2 -N 908 897 01 bearing cap bolts


I have an e-mail into them to see if they actually have all of the above in stock (I hear otherwise).

oilhammer December 31st, 2008 14:32

Two more done today. :D Now I am out of some minor parts (fasteners) and have a bunch more stuff on order.

The dealers do not sell any 'kits' and most of them do not even have any idea about this upgrade.

tdigreg December 31st, 2008 17:00

thanks oilhammer
mine is now quiet, the gear drive is amazing, the door panels are rattle free its like a new car(still needs a good cleaning), what a difference:D now i feel safe to go for 500K

MOGolf December 31st, 2008 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdigreg
... the gear drive is amazing,... its like a new car(still needs a good cleaning), what a difference:D now i feel safe to go for 500K

:) Exactly how I felt. You just don't realize how bad it was until after the surgery. You "know" it is bad before, but the results make it crystal clear that this is the way the engine should have been built.

Your car will also have a small part in the next revision of the PDF. I was able to get pictures of using the 3393 subframe alignment pins on your car.

tdigreg December 31st, 2008 18:37

thank glen sorry our paths didnt cross yesterday hope to see you soon its just as smooth as yours thanks for all the research

MOGolf January 2nd, 2009 18:41

Revised PDF to include pictures of 3393 alignment pin usage, change wording about pulling off the crankshaft sprocket (it will always break - heating didn't help), and used options to reduce file size significantly.

sschnath January 3rd, 2009 16:37

Apparently I'm living on borrowed time
 
Just logged in after a little over 4 months and just read all the posts on the BS problem. This forum is an amazing resource and thanks to all of you that have contributed.

I did my first timing belt/water pump on my '04 TDI at 105K and started getting noise at around 130-135K. Took it to two dealers, neither could isolate the problem (although both thought it was in the timing belt area) and now I understand why.

I have 194K now and have been living with the noise all this time. I figured if it was a bearing in one of the tensionsers it would get worse and I would deal with it then. I really didn't think it was timing belt related as it just seemed way too soon after the initial work was done and I just couldn't afford to have them start poking around without a better idea as to what it might be.

The noise hasn't gotten worse so I've continued to monitor it. Some days it's worse than others but overall it hasn't been getting progressively worse over time so I was beginning to think it was normal due to the mileage on the engine.

I had planned on doing the next belt change at 210K. That would probably be 4-5 months from now. I think I need to accelerate the timing belt work.

Normally I would have the dealer where I bought the car do the work -- I've been pretty happy with them for the most part on smaller jobs. But they really stuck it to me cost-wise on the first timing belt job and I'm not going to let them do the next one.

I've started having another VW dealer in my area do some minor work just to try them out. Initial estimates indicate that they'll be more reasonable on the cost of a timing belt job. However, I don't know whether I'm ready to let them at the BS yet.

I live in the Kennebunkport, Maine area and work outside of Boston, so I can travel some if I need to. Can anyone recommend a quality shop in this general area?

TheGrove January 4th, 2009 12:01

Chris Hill (MrCHill) is probably your best bet. His shop is in Braintree MA http://www.kraftwerke1.com/

cspeter8 January 5th, 2009 18:46

how to get the special service tools
 
We have a detailed illustrated procedure document, a source to buy the kit at worldimpex.com (sku #935619) and alot of suggestions on how to select a local mechanic to do the job.

One additional thing I feel I am hung up on - where do we get the special service tools? Are they available at the volkswagen dealer parts dept, or elsewhere?

thanks

MOGolf January 5th, 2009 19:13

www.samstagsales.com
tools.vw.com (an Equipment Solutions division of Snap-On site)
and World Impex can also get tools.

oilhammer January 6th, 2009 05:05

Some dealers will also order them for you, but it requires a few extra steps and that can be tough for them :rolleyes:

aja8888 January 6th, 2009 08:08

I have sent e-mails and filled out parts request forms at World Impex to verify if they have the BHW balance shaft upgrade kit parts in stock (IMPEX SKU # 935619). I have not gotten ANY response from them regarding this request yet. Has anyone ordered and recieved this kit from them yet? Or are they just taking orders?

Thanks,

Tony

oilhammer January 6th, 2009 08:31

My other ones have been on order for a while and are still not in. Still likely a couple weeks away, and those are all spoken for as I understand.

There WILL be a shortage of parts as these start to fail. And the chain driven stuff is obsolete, and not being restocked.

aja8888 January 6th, 2009 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
My other ones have been on order for a while and are still not in. Still likely a couple weeks away, and those are all spoken for as I understand.

There WILL be a shortage of parts as these start to fail. And the chain driven stuff is obsolete, and not being restocked.

Brian, does it make sense for some of us that are wanting to have this upgrade done to place orders at our local dealerships for these parts now? Even though there is a current lack of these parts in the U.S., is there a chance that by having additional orders placed the parts pipeline may speed up? What could placing of these orders hurt? Just thinking out loud here.

Tony

oilhammer January 6th, 2009 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888
Brian, does it make sense for some of us that are wanting to have this upgrade done to place orders at our local dealerships for these parts now? Even though there is a current lack of these parts in the U.S., is there a chance that by having additional orders placed the parts pipeline may speed up? What could placing of these orders hurt? Just thinking out loud here.

Tony

Couldn't hurt I guess.

KALaBenne January 6th, 2009 12:06

OH, just out of curiosity, how long does it take you to do this job?

oilhammer January 6th, 2009 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by KALaBenne
OH, just out of curiosity, how long does it take you to do this job?

I am sticking with the 8 hours labor charge, same as changing out the chain driven module, and the upgrade takes a few more minutes due to swapping that gear over.

I am not certain but I guess I could get one done start to finish in maybe 5 to 6 hours,not counting time for the sealant to properly cure. I rarely monitor the actual clock time it takes me on big jobs, because I have so many things going on at once during the day I get taken away from big jobs sometimes.

I know I can have the whole deal apart and the old module out on the bench in about 2 hours. It is the going back together that takes some time. Things like cleaning up the mating surfaces on the engine parts, lining up the subframe, filling the coolant, etc. can gobble up lots of time.

MOGolf January 6th, 2009 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888
Brian, does it make sense for some of us that are wanting to have this upgrade done to place orders at our local dealerships for these parts now? Even though there is a current lack of these parts in the U.S., is there a chance that by having additional orders placed the parts pipeline may speed up? What could placing of these orders hurt? Just thinking out loud here.

Tony

Your dealership is probably going to want to be paid up front for special order expensive parts like this. I know the one closest to me would require that. You'll also have to have a shop willing to install parts that you bought (unless you're doing the job yourself).

I may be able to do a few here throughout the year, if scheduled in advance and once parts are actually in-hand. I won't put up the money for the parts purchase ahead of time. I can't afford to have people be no-shows and claim that they either sold the car, went someplace else, just changed their minds, or drive off without paying for the parts.

aja8888 January 6th, 2009 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOGolf
Your dealership is probably going to want to be paid up front for special order expensive parts like this. I know the one closest to me would require that. You'll also have to have a shop willing to install parts that you bought (unless you're doing the job yourself).

I may be able to do a few here throughout the year, if scheduled in advance and once parts are actually in-hand. I won't put up the money for the parts purchase ahead of time. I can't afford to have people be no-shows and claim that they either sold the car, went someplace else, just changed their minds, or drive off without paying for the parts.

MoGolf: Thanks, I understand your position, especially when it involves the costly parts and your time. While all your (and Oilhammer's) absolutely great work has been going on, I, and I am sure others monitoring this issue, have been doing our own due diligence on what we may do to help our own situations for getting these upgrades done before we have a much larger problem. I drive a lot in my business and want my car to be at its peak reliability now that we are hearing of more catastropic chain failures. This is absolutely critical to me.

It is apparent that Oilhammer will be booked for a good bit of time and he is "parts constrained" at the moment so we (the folks wanting to get the upgrade soon) need to find other shops/Gurus who can do this upgrade. My intent for getting more parts orders in the pipeline is to forge an additional demand to the supply chain, if that is possible. And I am not sure that the effort will have ANY effect.

I have spoken today with the sales department at World Impex where they now have a list of parts for the module replacement on their website (thanks;) ). Based on their estimates of delivery, it is possible that I can have the kit before the end of this month and I have placed an order this afternoon. I also have a fairly local trusted shop/Guru who is working with me on this upgrade. If all this works out as planned, I will be upgraded and there will be another installer in the south here that can handle this work for others. This is my plan. It may not work, but I have to give it a try. If none of this works out like planned, my wife has family in St. Louis and we may make a visit this spring, with a stop at OH's shop.

From reading these related B5 balance shaft threads, there are efforts on the east coast to do the same as I am trying to accomplish, so I am not alone.

FYI: I went to our local VW dealer here in town, which is quite large BTW, and asked about getting the BS module and related parts. They (parts department) never heard about this upgrade and couldn't find the parts in their system. Now, maybe they didn't look hard enough, and I felt like it was a bother for them to help me. But that is what I got for two hours of my time yesterday. This is not the first time I have been treated this way at that dealership, but it is the last time.

Tony

oilhammer January 6th, 2009 17:31

I would be doing them non-stop if I could. I just am waiting on parts. I did the 2 that I had parts for (after our initial job on MOGolf's car) and now am waiting for more. I have 2 more BS modules, 2 sets of gears, and enough water pumps, timing belts, etc. to choke an elephant. But I do not yet have all the bolts I need.

My current order is 3 more BS modules/gears and the remainder of the bolts. This will allow me to do the 5 I have scheduled in the pipeline, and will be ordering more ASAP.

I also got a bunch of engine mounts, alternator pulleys, hood release pulls, and about 60 liters of G12 and about 75 liters of VW ATF.

...just waiting on Volkswagen :o ...and I just got yet another PM about getting one in.

MOGolf January 6th, 2009 17:39

I understand and fully support your efforts. I thought it should be made clear that people should not go to dealers expecting to order expensive parts without paying until delivery, or landing up with parts but without the ability to have them installed. You've got that situation covered. :)

Neither oilhammer nor myself could possibly fix all the cars, though we would like to do that so we know the job would be done right. If we win a lottery, that might happen, but I have a feeling that getting VW to cover the expense has better odds. ;)

Your experience with the local dealership is why we need places like World Impex to offer all the parts as a "kit". They've got the correct list of parts and quantities. Easy shopping and it doesn't take two hours of frustration.

Lug_Nut January 6th, 2009 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
...and I just got yet another PM about getting one in.

One 'what' in?
An additional geared BS module:)?
Or, another B5.5 that has thrown it's chain:eek:?

oilhammer January 6th, 2009 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut
One 'what' in?
An additional geared BS module:)?
Or, another B5.5 that has thrown it's chain:eek:?

Another noisy one. You know, these B5 TDIs were like hen's teeth when we were shopping for one new in 2004...now they are coming out of the woodwork needing this upgrade done! LOL! :p

Man I wish I could get more parts here faster!!! :mad:

DickSilver January 9th, 2009 10:14

I have ordered the BS kit from Impex today. They said they expect some kits in, on Monday 12 Jan. Of course until the materials actually are in-hand, it's a "check is in the mail" situation. My 2004 B5.5V is just at 101,000 miles, so that with a new timing belt, water pump, etc., make a proper job.

I will use Fast Enough, a VW shop of excellent repute close by here in Lexington KY, to do the work. Maybe now I'll have a car good for lots of future miles!!

oilhammer January 9th, 2009 10:36

Just make sure your shop of choice has the special tools for the job. Not everyone may have them. I didn't.

leicaman January 9th, 2009 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Just make sure your shop of choice has the special tools for the job. Not everyone may have them. I didn't.

I am assuming the tools you refer to are the ones as specified in the repair .pdf that MoGolf assembled. These are tools in that .pdf are beyond what a normal timing belt procedure would require, correct?

vw4life January 9th, 2009 12:55

I am curious how the BS gets replaced so it's rotation is timed to the engine so it does indeed balance and not cause an out of balance situation?

MOGolf January 9th, 2009 12:58

Engine is locked at TDC. BS is installed with its lock. The intermediate gear between the crank and BS gears is sized appropriately so that the BS rotates at the proper rpm.

Lug_Nut January 9th, 2009 16:34

One gear, the one on the BS I believe, is slotted.
Crank at TDC, BS at TDC, BS gear loose and free to shift in the slots, install the idler to mesh w/both gears letting the BS gear rotate while the BS shaft is held, then tighten the BS gear bolts in their slots where ever the crank and idler put the gear and the BS puts the shaft.

ScotR January 9th, 2009 17:40

I was just reading the how to page for the bs module and it is a very good right up. I myself have done a few and there are a few things that can be done to make it easier. 1- No need to remove lock carrier from the car, puting the carrier in "service position" gives amble room for the job, also doesn't require A/C tools. 2- The crank sprocket gets pulled off with the same puller the new 2.0 tdi in the a5 body uses. Just have to grind the legs on the puller 1.5mm to engage the sprocket. The gear will never break using that tool. Don't have the vas# handy but can get it. Hope that helps.

MOGolf January 9th, 2009 19:40

I kept telling Brian about #1 but he prefers to remove the lock carrier.

You might mean T10392, the tool for pulling off the crankshaft gear that gets installed in this repair. The T40001 is what was specified by VW for pulling off the sprocket. Their procedure may have been written before the T10392 became available.

blaz January 10th, 2009 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotR
I was just reading the how to page for the bs module and it is a very good right up. I myself have done a few and there are a few things that can be done to make it easier

Er, ScotR, would you be in the Mechanic business?

There's a bunch of Ontario Passat owners looking for a place to get this done, without the trek to Missouri.

oilhammer January 10th, 2009 19:25

It is not a big deal for me to remove the lock carrier because I have an A/C machine handy. You could certainly leave it in place. I just prefer not to have to lean over things.

While the A/C is being sucked down I do other things on the job, so there really is no wasted time. I pull them off on just about every B5 timing belt job.

wolfsburg January 11th, 2009 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaz
Er, ScotR, would you be in the Mechanic business?

There's a bunch of Ontario Passat owners looking for a place to get this done, without the trek to Missouri.

I would think that VDubTech should be able to do this..in Toronto just off 400 north of 401...But no parts are available in Ontario!????? Well for that matter anywhere it seems.

sschnath January 12th, 2009 09:50

I had a dealer that I trust quote ~$3300 for a complete rebuild of the timing belt area (including water plump and tensioners), new serpentine belt, plus the balance shaft replacement parts included in the Impex kit.

It worked out to $2072 for parts and tax and $1100 for 12 hrs of labor. They believe this to be worst case and think the labor could come down some when they actually do the job. They've never done the job so I doubt it would come down much. They normally charge around $1000 for the timing belt work so the incremental BS work would cost me $2300. This seems reasonable and would prevent me from having to travel to get this done.

They're also willing to order the parts without any sort of up front payment from me, mainly because they're not seeing any of the BS parts in stock (which I was prepared for) and they have no idea how long it will take to get them.

I'm going to have a second dealer quote it but I'm pretty sure they'll come in a few hundred dollars higher and I'm sure they won't order the parts without advance payment.

maktas January 13th, 2009 07:48

I got a call from my extended warranty company, probably to offer an extention on the current plan, I wasn't able to talk to them yet (they left a message), but what do you guys think it? I guess it will depend on how much they are asking, but it could be a good hedge against a $3000 parts and labor BS replacement work. Its kinda a cynical to hope that the chain will break.

aja8888 January 13th, 2009 07:52

Well, if the chain does break, it can be the end of the engine (crankshaft and rod bearings fail, no lubrication to the top end, etc. That can cost a lot but the extended warranty may cover it. Do you have faith that it would is the question?

oilhammer January 13th, 2009 10:03

We just had a Passat W8 in here with a bad chain tensioner/cam phaser assembly, and that extended warranty company would not cover it. So I would not 'depend' on that type of scam.

leicaman January 13th, 2009 10:25

The W8 sure sounds like one expensive motor. So if you think the BHW is expensive with its BS bs, just think how tight a W8 is in a Passat engine bay. Gives me the willies just thinking about it.

oilhammer January 13th, 2009 11:54

Not all that tight actually.. But it is expensive. Nearly $20k for one, and there is not anything serviceable on the longblock (in other words, if it needs a valve job, you get to buy a new engine).

DickSilver January 13th, 2009 13:14

I studied the option of going ahead with a 100K timing belt replacement and buying an "extended warranty" that looked to be from a reputable outfit. Their requirements were extensive in terms of the maintenance I must perform, all MUST be done at "licensed" repair/service shops. They limited their coverage to $3300 on the engine and $6000 total on the car during another 100K/5 year driving interval.

I decided that using the extended warranty to bet that the chain & BS module would fail but then cost less than $3300 after a catastrophic failure, and NOT have them weasel out of the warranty was the wrong way to go about things, so I have bought the geared BS kit from Impex and am having my local independent shop do the work.


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