building a tdi-m with rover pump???

[CRSMP5]

well not positive which area to ask for schooling but ill assume here...

0460414099 from a land-rover defender 2.5 aka 300 tdi

fitting it is as simple as mk4 onto mk3 ahu mount.

i have a AHU engine from a 98 jetta, i have the above rover pump in hand, and seek advice on nozzles to use and any tips about using this pump to build a tdi-m.. ive read some bits via search, but looking for someone who has done it

 

[hustler900]

I would be very interested in what mods are needed to bolt this pump onto an AHU. How about an ALH? I was just starting to look into the Rover Mtdi pumps for my AHU swap but I ended up taking another path. Would be good to know for any future swaps though.

 

[CRSMP5]

mounting the pump is simple. well not difficult.. you have to rember the AHU pump is small where it goes into the mount.. like any pre ahu pumps... a newer pump alh?? aka 99.5+ mk4 style requires a machine shop to open that hole up to about 68mm i think it was.. then from reading requires a few shims to get the gear to line up perfectly with the belt... rember the pully becomes the adjustment vs turning the pump to do so. mine was machined next day.. and machinest said it was cake too.

for a mk4 style tdi its direct bolt on...

 

[ryanp]

the pump fits an AAZ bracket which bolts up to the TDI block, you need to weld on a lug for the TB roller or just leave it out. the AHU sprocket fits the LR shaft perfectly too.

the advance springs need swapping to something softer (AAZ?) and they run fine, have a look on vwdiesel.net for my posts as well as others on this subject. getting the timing right is the hardest part.

 

[jetfiremuck]

I have a 200 tdi LR pump that I am thinking of using on the ahu motor. The lr pump pulley looks like it will work. It has a heavier mass maybe using the mass as a flywheel effect damping pulses thru the pump.

 

[ryanp]

The rover pulley is no good at all, the offset is wrong and it's too large AFAIK

 

[CRSMP5]

im going to use a mk4 style pully..

 

[ryanp]

the mk4 pulley has no keyway on the 'holder/flange' so setting it at TDC can be a pain, id prefer to use an AHU pulley and just live with the fact that you have to adjust the timing by swinging the pump.

 

[markb_1303]

I've just put one of these pumps on a 1Z which I have transplanted into a 1985 audi 80.

I used the pump bracket from a 1.9TD T4 transporter van (eurovan?? to the americans) becuase I had one laying around. The AAZ bracket I had I'm sure was too small, but now ryanp has mentioned it, I will have to look again. Ryan, was the AAZ a late one with the 2-piece hub by any chance?

I used the 1Z pulley which meant slotting the pump mounting holes so the timing could be set by turning the whole pump.

Timing figures, I started at 1.54mm which is a number I have seen on a few threads and it ran at that setting. However, it was a bit smokey and with some more advance ran perfect. The car is at the MOT station at the moment but when I get it back I will check what the timing is set to now and start tweaking the pump a bit. I intend to investigate the govenor and timing springs etc...

 

[ryanp]

I've just put one of these pumps on a 1Z which I have transplanted into a 1985 audi 80.

I used the pump bracket from a 1.9TD T4 transporter van (eurovan?? to the americans) becuase I had one laying around. The AAZ bracket I had I'm sure was too small, but now ryanp has mentioned it, I will have to look again. Ryan, was the AAZ a late one with the 2-piece hub by any chance?

I used the 1Z pulley which meant slotting the pump mounting holes so the timing could be set by turning the whole pump.

Timing figures, I started at 1.54mm which is a number I have seen on a few threads and it ran at that setting. However, it was a bit smokey and with some more advance ran perfect. The car is at the MOT station at the moment but when I get it back I will check what the timing is set to now and start tweaking the pump a bit. I intend to investigate the govenor and timing springs etc...

The bracket was the one with a 2pc hub as far as I remember, at first I got my mates grandad to open up a TDi one but realised this afterwards! I did the same for the first setup I made, slotting the holes. The second one just used a stock AAZ bracket and the Mk4 golf Hub/sprocket but finding TDC would be a pain with no keyway so I sold it all on.

I'd like to see how the pump goes if you open the timing cover up and put a softer spring in, maybe a AAZ one will work?? The governor needs doing as the Land rovers don’t rev well at all.

Really need to fit one of these into my dads Mk1 caddy with some .216 injectors and a nice turbo!! TD’s run too hot!!

 

[markb_1303]

Yeah, the AAZ bracket that I had was off the earlier one piece pulley design, but I did wonder about the 2-piece style AAZ as I put one of those in my mk2, didn't fancy ripping it apart though!

I've got a spare AAZ to try the advance spring out of, i've also got a "GTD" pump and a couple of other random pumps to try. I did noticed it fell quite flat as the revs went up, so that is definitely on the list.

At the moment I've got a VNT turbo from a crafter van on there, built my own controller for it but havn't got it wired up just yet (one of the advantages of the rover pump is the throttle position sensor on it!) but I did have a quick drive with the vacuum lines ran in the car just to see how much it would boost - when my mate plugged the line in it pegged my 1.5bar boost gauge in an instant and pulled HARD, then blew a boost hose! When I've got the boost, advance and gov sorted I'll be putting some DSS stage 2 nozzles in it too.

 

[ryanp]

Which turbo from the crafter do you have?? The LR throttle pot is easy to fit to other pumps if you have the skills! I sent all the parts to a mate for him to make a VNT controller, not sure how far he got with it. I'd like to see your version.

Fit the spring and report back, you might also need to make the cover deeper to get more advance.

DSS nozzles will be nuts, lol, you will have loads of fuel with those and an 11mm pump! Have you considered a lift pump for it too?

Email me some pics if you could, been talking with my bro's and we NEED to put an M-TDi in the Caddy! lol

 

[blackdogvan]

Interesting that some have been able to find a stock IP bracket that fit without a bit of machine time. I've fitted my LR 300tdi 11mm pump on my Mtdi & it wasn't too difficult bu there were a few things. I started with a canadian AAZ IP bracket & had to have the nose bore opened up for the LR pump but just a few mm. From there it installed easily with a ALH 2 piece flange/pulley & shorter delivery valves from an old AAZ pump so the stock lines would line up without needing any bends.

Goes like a stabbed rat compared to the AAZ I had in before, mileage is consistent at 7.5L/100km (AAZ was 9.3) which is pretty good for pushing around a fat Vanagon & a heavy foot. PP520's (from RyanP), K03 hybrid @ 18psi & NO smoke... none; i could probably use a bit more fuel but i'm happy as it is. Initally I set the timing to 1.2 but that was a tad (ok more than a tad...) smokey at cold start. I beleive its around 1.4ish now & no smoke at start & not clacky sounding. I'm very happy with the results.

 

[ryanp]

Reuben, Did you get toy pump set at a diesel shop so the 'hub' is in the right place for TDC.

I thought i mentioned the AAZ bracket to you, sorry if i mislead you!!

Do you have some more pics of your throttle cable setup as the bottom pic is more VAG than landy!

Ry

 

[blackdogvan]

Reuben, Did you get toy pump set at a diesel shop so the 'hub' is in the right place for TDC.

I thought i mentioned the AAZ bracket to you, sorry if i mislead you!!

Do you have some more pics of your throttle cable setup as the bottom pic is more VAG than landy!

Ry

Ya Giles pressed the hub on so its locks at TDC. On the LR pumps its not hard to figure out though, the woodruff key on the shaft points to the #1 cylinder pump outlet at pump TDC.

The throttle cable setup is from your pal @ Brickwerks & fits under the vanagon engine cover. It'd be easy to bend one I suppose. Throw is setup for the vanagon (T3) throttle cable.

I wouldn't lose any sleep about any bracket info, I figured that one out on my own a few years ago when I started this build.

 

[CRSMP5]

well ive got a few other machinest friends.. one who likes to do extream custom little things.. like cluutch choes on a rc nitro car.. i bet he can add me a groove for the mk4 hub to be keyed like the rover one.. just need to get a mk4 pully set up still..

the bracket is simple.. any shop should be able to open thqat up..

 

[CRSMP5]

well after pondering the pump gear solution i think ive got the best idea.. build a custom one..

has anyone ever looked at how they make adjustable cam gears for the gasser engines? id expect a cam to have more force/tension then a fuel pump right?

ill have a machinest friend build me a plate.. drill tap my pump gear.. then cut the bad boy so i have a perfect adjustable pump gear in mk4 style but direct fit to the rover pump.. as long as i have a tooth of adjustment built into it i should be tits perfect..

 

[ryanp]

The mk4 pulley fits right on though? just needs a key way to make sure its in the right place, seems like a lot of effort for nothing!!

 

[CRSMP5]

adding keyway is much harder, rember its tapered hole too, then a simple piece of round steel, some slots.. and drill/tap.. id also have to find a mk4 pully set up with hub.. get the mk4 pull machined thinner and stuff.,.. so reality is, is it?

even if i had to buy a cam gear for a gasser at $100ish new for the plate id look for a used one 1st, its gotta cost less overall AND evryone would have easy ability to duplicate it..

reality for me is this is the 1st of many tdi-m's ill end up building.. know a few others who want tdi's but do not want the electrical hassle.. and with my connections rover pumps are not hard to get..

 

[coronan]

I seen the LR 300 was rated for 120 hp. Is the pump the limiting factor or the turbo?

 

[ketchupshirt88]

i guess that depends on what turbo you wanna use...

the rover pump is an 11mm pump so I would assume that its overall fueling capability is on par with the 11mm electronically controlled ALH pump provided the same nozzles are being used.

but you know what they say about assuming...

 

[vanbcguy]

The Rover 2.5L engine puts out 120 hp in stock form - stock injectors, stock turbo, stock emissions profile. The pump itself has no trouble pushing more fuel than that.

The pump head itself is identical to an 11mm ALH pump. The cam plate in the pump (which is what actually pushes on the plunger more or less) isn't quite as aggressive as the stock AHU/ALH ones. This does limit the fueling you can achieve a tiny bit. Larger nozzles take care of that though. If you are going for an all out 200 hp+ build then swapping in a different cam plate wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, however the stock one is sufficient for most people's needs if they are doing injectors too.

The earlier Rover 200 TDI pumps have a more aggressive cam plate than the later 300 TDI ones, though there's been some suggestions that the 200 pumps are more likely to break plunger return springs due to said cam plate. I can't say either way - I have the 300 TDI version along with large nozzles and I definitely don't have any issues getting enough fuel in there.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

 

[CRSMP5]

i just installed a vw 11mm cam plate and return springs in a 200 pump that had broken springs... one day the owner will have it fitted up and ill getta see how it varies vs a 300 pump with gov mod.. but its more then nuff to get in trouble with no gov mod.. gov mod just lets ya lift heads and blow turbos when facing off against a wrx... but wrx lost..

so imo.. put it in.. be happy... ive been running stock gov as kept hurtin things with the mod.. but again.. i do have a bew bottom end to build something from now.. compound turbo.. 45psi boost is my plan... just not in a hurry as its more fun to drive vs foxing broken crap..

why would a gov mod break things... engine rpm vs turbo rpm... turbo dislikes over spooled and stock rpm its ok with... but when it pulls till the cam plate skips in the pump and you drive it like a race car it did few things... ate few turbos.. ate the cam plate... lifted the head... the turbo is my limiting factor.. but its so unsafe with what it will do i have let it be my limit...

 

[Marzocchi]

Hey guys. I'am from Germany and have some experience with TDIs but I'm new to building an M-TDI.
I am just working on an ALH with a LR 300TDI ERR4046 pump and have some difficulties to get the sprocket on.

Unfortunately the right english terms for the pump parts are not common to me...

I have a LR 300TDI Pump with Governod mod. I have a complete ALH engine with ALH Pump. I removed the ALH pump and put the LR pump on instead. The mounting holes of the LR pump do not have threads but thats ok.

My problem is, that the ALH sprocket with 3 mounting holes does not fit the LR Pump (sout?/flansh?). What do I have to do?

Thanks for your help and regards

 

[jimbote]

Hey guys. I'am from Germany and have some experience with TDIs but I'm new to building an M-TDI.
I am just working on an ALH with a LR 300TDI ERR4046 pump and have some difficulties to get the sprocket on.
Unfortunately the right english terms for the pump parts are not common to me...
I have a LR 300TDI Pump with Governod mod. I have a complete ALH engine with ALH Pump. I removed the ALH pump and put the LR pump on instead. The mounting holes of the LR pump do not have threads but thats ok.
My problem is, that the ALH sprocket with 3 mounting holes does not fit the LR Pump (sout?/flansh?). What do I have to do?
Thanks for your help and regards

you have to swap hubs

 

[vanbcguy]

Yup, you need both the hub and the pulley from an ALH. The Rover hub has the wrong offset.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

 

[Marzocchi]

Thanks. I got that fixed. I now installed the pump to the ALH engine and set the timing to 1.42. All good.

Starting the engine I had to give the main fuel screw about 5-6 turns to get enough fuel (using the small stock alh nozzles at the moment) but then it awoke. Normal?

My problem now is that i'm afraid I did something wrong putting the pump back together after the governor mod (2 shims to the spring)

The engine almost does not react to the gas lever position.
There is a bit of a reaction at the very end of the lever travel. I can adjust idle rpm with the main fuel screw but the engine will suddeny rev to nirvana if I screw it in too much.

In the video below you see that the engine will start good at 100% throttle. I adjust rpm with the main fuel screw. Releasing the gas lever will stop the engine to run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfXzXz0wejQ

Any ideas what I have done wrong? Thanks

 

[jimbote]

Sounds like you need to advance the throttle lever a couple of splines

 

[damac]

i just started my first mtdi alh project today with rover 300 pump. i think im timed to 1.54 because i thought thats what google said

mine came off a used runner so the guy said. i was surprised after i primed fuel it didn't take allot of cranking before it started up without glowplugs.

mine seems to be steady idling and reacts to pedal, etc. so i didn't have to tamper with fuel screw, etc.

did you test the pump before you did the governor mod?

 

[SplitBusVanatic]

SO42 1966 splitty with AFN from 1997 Passat.
Flipped Passat gearbox.
Converted to mtdi using Land Rover 300tdi pump.
Bored out the factory afn injector pump bracket to accept the replacement pump.
Grew tired of limp mode and the old sensors.
So from a future proof point of view and a cost analysis of replacing multiple sensors such a as MAF and n75 and throttle potentiometer. vs buying the rover pump and the golf alh pump sprocket. Also changed the turbo to a waste-gate type. Didn’t have the knowledge to make up a vnt controller for the afn factory turbo.
Result was: It was a no brainer. Mtdi all the way for me.
Here’s a cold start.
https://youtu.be/n3pSJyuVwF0
Little smoke on start up. May need a further tune.