Lucky I took car in for work today

mrvermin

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Lucky I took car in to Mechanic today

WOW, after picking my car up at the shop today I find out just how lucky I am that I decided to take it in today...

While driving these past few weeks I started to notice that the Valve noise was getting progressively louder. I did the Ghetto Stethoscope thing and it sounded like ticking from the lifters. So I made an appointment with my Mechanic to bring the car in today and borrow one so I could work while he worked on my car. When I got back to pick up my car I got the news...

Now, a bit of history...

I had my stock CAM replaced with a Colt Stage 2 Cam with new lifters a while ago, so getting the lifter noise now is a bit strange. Anywho...

Back to the present...

I found out that a few of my lifters were failing, so all were changed out, and in doing so a few things were found. One is that the Cam Journals (sp?) were scored :( (I'll have picts of that later). It was explained that it was not a critical issue and that it will not cause engine failure, but it pisses me off that it happened :mad:

Second I found out that my Cam Gear on the Timing Belt was cracked in multiple places and had almost failed.... :mad: picts below (sorry, cell phone camera...)

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=85904&title=broken-cam-gear&cat=5528

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=85905&title=broken-cam-gear-2&cat=5528

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=85906&title=broken-cam-gear-3&cat=5528

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=85907&title=broken-cam-gear-4&cat=5528

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=85908&title=broken-cam-gear-5&cat=5528

So my mechanic replaced the Cam Gear and reset the timing again. The Cam was also checked out and there are (thankfully) no stress cracks or blemishes in the Cam :)...

From how it was explained to me, the only way to cause those "injuries" to the Cam Gear was to install it using an Air Gun to tighten it instead of a proper Torque Wrench. Apparently, when my mechanic tried to get the Cam Gear off, he found that it had been tightened to about 200lbs/ft :eek: causing it to crack :eek:...

Anyway, I was really lucky today, if I had not decided to have it checked out, the gear would have failed and my engine would have seized after dropping valves into pistons and my car would have been toast :(

I live to learn, and won't get fooled again...

MrVermin
 
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OmegaRenegade

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thats crazy!
what lifters went into the car when you got the cam upgraded? were those the black top one?

glad you got that sorted before anything let go
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
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WOW! I am amazed it didn't fail with cracks like that. Who was the mechanic that did the timing belt last?

This is yet another reason I prefer to do my own work, but I understand not everyone has that option, and why I am so willing to help others learn as well.
 

mrvermin

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2001 Jetta TDI
I'll bring the gear and the lifters to the Wednesday meet in Brampton this Wednesday.

MrVermin
 

mrvermin

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2001 Jetta TDI
Should have went to DCB.



See you Wendnesday. ;)

Hmmmmm...... I think ....... Naw...... I had best say nothing...... History has proved that once certain words are uttered, wagons are circled and shots are fired..... So .... mum.mum.mum

MrVermin
 

geoman

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woodstock ontario canada
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say mrvermin, who's the sleuth mechanic that sorted out your mess? better get my wheels to him to get sorted out! can any of this be attributed to part quality/failure? what are the lb/ft the gear should have been set to? is this all about install? if the cam journal scoring doesn't do anything except piss you off, what did he do to remedy it? was it left alone?
 

mrvermin

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say mrvermin, who's the sleuth mechanic that sorted out your mess? better get my wheels to him to get sorted out! can any of this be attributed to part quality/failure? what are the lb/ft the gear should have been set to? is this all about install? if the cam journal scoring doesn't do anything except piss you off, what did he do to remedy it? was it left alone?

PM sent

MrVermin
 

Abacus

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You know, I understand people wanting to keep things on the QT and not make any waves, but it would be helpful to the rest of the board if stuff like this was known.

People should be able to stand on their own reputation, not on the perceived reputation given to them by others.

Maybe I'm starting to get a little ornery in my old age, but if you screw up...man up, and take the good with the bad. We all make mistakes, but what ticks me off is when someone makes a mistake and doesn't want others to know about it because it would be a 'blemish' on their reputaion.
 

mrvermin

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You know, I understand people wanting to keep things on the QT and not make any waves, but it would be helpful to the rest of the board if stuff like this was known.

People should be able to stand on their own reputation, not on the perceived reputation given to them by others.

Maybe I'm starting to get a little ornery in my old age, but if you screw up...man up, and take the good with the bad. We all make mistakes, but what ticks me off is when someone makes a mistake and doesn't want others to know about it because it would be a 'blemish' on their reputaion.
You know, you are right. If the parties involved (and their Kool-Aid drinking minions) want to slag me, or flame me for this, go right ahead.

I had my stock Cam changed out for a Colt stage2 Cam at DCB (Brandon/VDUB TECH). During the installation, there were issues with the Lifters supplied by Kerma that were resolved in the end by replacing them with others sourced by Brandon. (Kerma refunded me the amount of the problematic lifters and Brandon did not charge me for the replacements that he sourced).

Since that installation, the vehicle was louder than normal and after a number of months (8 or so) I decided to have the car checked out by another mechanic (Henrick at Wroth). When Henrick pulled the Cam Gear out to check on the lifters he found the Cam Gear in its current state as well as etching marks in the Cam Lobes.

When Henrick tried to remove the Cam Gear he found that the bolt was tightened to around 200ft/lbs, which is insane. He replaced the lifters and the Cam Gear and now the car is quieter....

MrVermin
 

VDUB TECH

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Then why didnt you pick up the phone and call me?That was over a year ago.....Ive said it before and im going to say it again.DCB stands behind there work 100 Percent
 

Abacus

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Hmmm, something is not adding up. I noticed the same thing jimbote did in this post:

jimbote said:
can't really tell from the pic's but it looks like a very fresh crack as in never run in the broken state...I can't see any burnishing along the fractures...again the pictures are slightly out of focus...
Those cracks appear fresh and not run on, is there any chance Henrick removed the cam sprocket bolt with a gun and had it set incorrectly, so it would spin clockwise and not counterclockwise? There was no cracking on the cam snout? How about the bolt, any abnormalities there? I also wish the pictures were clearer and larger, because they will probably tell the tale.

How did the sprocket break like that? An overtightened bolt would cause, I assume, cracking from the point of origin outward, whereas these look like they started beyond that point, on an unstressed area, almost like it was dropped just right or the incorrect puller was used and too much force applied. There appears to be no abnormalities on the center taper area indicating an improper torque. Those who have seen stuff like this, please chime in here, I am truly curious and would love to be educated.

Also, could the sprocket could be run in that state, because the timing would vary, creating havoc on the car running, not just sounding loud? Like I said, something here doesn't sound right to me, and I'm not trying to lay blame anywhere, just find out the truth.

I do not know any of the parties involved and have no stake in the thread other than finding out what actually happened. However, this also comes with a price, since the accused have a right to defend themselves. I am interested to hear more.

'Quod verum tutum'. “What is true is right!” ~My family motto.
 
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mrvermin

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While true that the pictures I took are of poor cell phone quality, I'll be taking better ones later today with a proper camera and posting them.

Two of the arms leading out from the center hub have broken through where they meet the center hub. The same arms are cracked where they meet the outer ring. I am not sure as to what type of discolouration may occure at the affected areas if the gear was run like that for a period of time.

I am aware that when I checked my timing in Vag it was moving around, but not violently. At the time I thought it was my IP and had that rebuilt by Gilles at Performance Diesel Injection here in the GTA. This did not resolve the "bouncing" timing issue.

From what I am aware of, Air Guns are never to be used on the Cam Gear bolt. Tighten them by hand then use Torque Wrench to proper ft/lbs. reverse procedure to remove (maybe with breaker bar to loosen).

If anyone can enlighten me as to another way this could happen, please, I want to know so I do not repeat the same mistake.

MrVermin
 

Abacus

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You are correct on the installation of the sprocket. I never use air tools on the timing components, ever.

Like I said, I am no mechanic despite feeling like one often, and have done more than a few timing belts, but this hardly makes me anything other than helpful. I am, however, an engineer and from my perspective, it looks like one of 3 things:

A) The sprocket was dropped resulting in the cracks.
B) The sprocket had a puller put on it at the wrong axis that cracked the sprocket along the high stress arm of the puller.
C) The sprocket was hit with a hammer on the top edge to remove it, resulting in the cracks. I seriously doubt this could be from the aforementioned procedure of striking the sprocket with chisel on the inside edge. Although it is possible to have a culmination of several factors, such as dropping the sprocket resulting in a hairline fracture, then using the chisel to remove it and overstressing the influenced part. I still think this would take more than the required force knowing how thick the sprockets are.

Since there is no cracking or appearance of influence along the center bore, where it's attached to the cam, and the only area of stress put on the cam sprocket, I have to question the origination from that point. If it did originate from that point, we should see some indication of failure or at least deformation. The spokes of the sprocket are not loaded except longitudinally along the axis of the timing belt, which could not cause such a failure.

Of course, with better pictures more hypothesis may be presented, but this is what I see so far.

Like I said, not laying blame anywhere, just offering my unbiased opinion.
 
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rhskcdn

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Also, looking forward to seeing some larger photos. It is hard to say anything insightful given their quality. Would have been nice to see some disassembly photos or work-in-progress shots.
 

VDUB TECH

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I just checked out the pics , a tdi would run for 30 seconds and blow with that sprocket like that.Maybe less than 30 seconds.Lets see some pics of those "Bad" INA, 1 year old lifters too just for jokes.I bet there severly worn out and needed replacing...What would the sprocket trq have to do with lifter noise anyways??So the engine ran with that sprocket and the t-belt was fine?Wasnt changed after running with that sprocket?c'mon.
 

geoman

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did your ip really need to be rebuilt by gilles @ performance diesel injection? how much did that cost and what happened when this didn't resolve your timing issue? was there any suggestion by them that something else might have been to blame particularly when 'bouncing' timing is the issue? how do you miss a crack like that!? how do you drive with a crack like that? nothing adds up. gta to wroth in erin over who knows how much time with nothing too serious happening. that's lucky all right. maybe i should get you to buy my lotto ticket for me. if we win big i'll split it with ya... honest!;)
 

grawil

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No question. gear was busted trying to remove it. why they had trouble is unknown. looks like their puller slipped or they hit it real hard along the edge. nobody uses air tools on the valve train. not for install and not for removal. it just isnt done. if they swaped lifters they should have swaped the cam. worn lifters = buggered cam. what oil did you use after the original cam swap? what was its zn content? oh, and best thread in a while. love the ON drama.
 

grawil

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and the annoying german has a point. if the gear came into a shop looking like that then do a full tb job. but no way it did. you cant have a radial crack in that camshaft sprocket and expect the engine to run without grenading.TB puts too much torque on it.
 

geoman

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Location
woodstock ontario canada
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No question. gear was busted trying to remove it. why they had trouble is unknown. looks like their puller slipped or they hit it real hard along the edge. nobody uses air tools on the valve train. not for install and not for removal. it just isnt done. if they swaped lifters they should have swaped the cam. worn lifters = buggered cam. what oil did you use after the original cam swap? what was its zn content? oh, and best thread in a while. love the ON drama.
wow, r u telling me this has nothing to do with anything except drag somebody through the mud? how dramatic... and edifying. i'll be sure to insist air tools aren't used on the valve train ever :D and i'll use emoticons even less for less dramatic effect.(btw, that was the edifying part.) promise.;)
 

2ManyKMfor1Tank

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Hmmm, something is not adding up. I noticed the same thing jimbote did in this post:



Those cracks appear fresh and not run on, is there any chance Henrick removed the cam sprocket bolt with a gun and had it set incorrectly, so it would spin clockwise and not counterclockwise? There was no cracking on the cam snout? How about the bolt, any abnormalities there? I also wish the pictures were clearer and larger, because they will probably tell the tale.

How did the sprocket break like that? An overtightened bolt would cause, I assume, cracking from the point of origin outward, whereas these look like they started beyond that point, on an unstressed area, almost like it was dropped just right or the incorrect puller was used and too much force applied. There appears to be no abnormalities on the center taper area indicating an improper torque. Those who have seen stuff like this, please chime in here, I am truly curious and would love to be educated.

Also, could the sprocket could be run in that state, because the timing would vary, creating havoc on the car running, not just sounding loud? Like I said, something here doesn't sound right to me, and I'm not trying to lay blame anywhere, just find out the truth.

I do not know any of the parties involved and have no stake in the thread other than finding out what actually happened. However, this also comes with a price, since the accused have a right to defend themselves. I am interested to hear more.

'Quod verum tutum'. “What is true is right!” ~My family motto.
I agree with Grawil strangely... No way that engine ran with the sprocket in that condition. This damage had to be caused by the removal of the sprocket, not installation. Over-torquing the sprocket would make it difficult to remove, as it is a taper-fit to the cam.

If you still have access to the sprocket, look on the inside(engine side or driver's side) edge of it and you will likely either see a punch/chisel mark or marks from the teeth of the 3-jaw puller they used to get it off. The teeth marks may even be on the forks. Post pics when you can. I'd really like to see that end of the cam as well to see if there is a groove in it from being ""Torqued heavily" Normal torque spec is 30'ish ft lbs, I used 45 on mine.
 
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dr_p

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What happened to this thread? Just because someone alludes that it might not be DCB's fault it dies?

The 'minions' are confused
 
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