Post EGR delete oil change

chattowntdi

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So I installed my buzzken DPF/EGR delete about 800 miles ago and it’s about time for an oil change. I have always stuck to the recommended oils and factory filters but I have heard that now that the EGR is gone I can use just regular diesel oil? I don’t mind either way honestly. I either have to order the spec’d oil or can get non spec’d local. What do you all think? Haven’t ran but one tank of fuel through so far but mileage increase was right at 3 mpg hand calculated. Thus far I am very happy with my delete parts.
 

CleverUserName

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You can use real diesel engine oil even with DPF and EGR, however it's not recommended because it theoretically may shorten the life of your emissions system.

Yes you are correct, no need for low ash oils any longer. 5w30 and 10w30 are great options with many HQ full synthetics available. 5w40 or 10w40 can also be used however you may lose 1 MPG.

If you decide to go with a CI-4+ diesel oil like Amsoil ACD, HDD or AMO you could probably do 20K+ or more mile oil change intervals if you just change the filter every 10K. You may also be able to do 20K on a CJ-4 oil as the EA288 has a fairly large oil sump relative to displacement. Oil sampling will be required to see how long the interval can be increased.
 

chattowntdi

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CleverUserName, thank you very much for the reply. That answered every question I might have come up with. I know some folks do long change intervals, at least what I would consider long, but I’m ok changing the oil at a shorter frequency. Even with sampling I would be nervous that this time around something has happened and I didn’t catch it for 15000 miles. But that’s just how I am. Worrisome lol. Thanks again for your awesome reply and I will look into my newly expanded oil selection.
 

turbobrick240

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I'd just get the cheapest 5w-40 you can find. They are all synthetic and diesel rated. Or stick with the 507 oils, they perform very well.
 

HPsenicka

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I'd just get the cheapest 5w-40 you can find. They are all synthetic and diesel rated. Or stick with the 507 oils, they perform very well.

I can't support the idea that just any 5W-40 oil would be acceptable.


The low-ash requirements of the VW 507 spec are obviously aimed at protecting expensive DPF / EGR components, but even with those deleted, you still need to consider the requirements of a modern common-rail diesel engine.


There was a lot of debate over the years about appropriate lubrication for PD and CR engines, and the increased possibility of camshaft wear



Personally I have cheated the VW 505.01 gods before, and used Rotella T6 5W40 in my BEW powered Jetta, but I think it is risky to assume that just any 5W40 diesel oil would be OK.


Extended oil change intervals is another topic... the VW recommendations seem pretty generous. I don't think I would want to press my luck with 20K mi oil change intervals unless I tested the oil to confirm all is well.
 

turbobrick240

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I can't support the idea that just any 5W-40 oil would be acceptable.


The low-ash requirements of the VW 507 spec are obviously aimed at protecting expensive DPF / EGR components, but even with those deleted, you still need to consider the requirements of a modern common-rail diesel engine.


There was a lot of debate over the years about appropriate lubrication for PD and CR engines, and the increased possibility of camshaft wear



Personally I have cheated the VW 505.01 gods before, and used Rotella T6 5W40 in my BEW powered Jetta, but I think it is risky to assume that just any 5W40 diesel oil would be OK.


Extended oil change intervals is another topic... the VW recommendations seem pretty generous. I don't think I would want to press my luck with 20K mi oil change intervals unless I tested the oil to confirm all is well.

I'd love for you to enlighten us on which of any commonly available 5w-40 oils would be unacceptable(in your opinion) for a deleted commonrail. For instance, I wouldn't hesitate to use any house brand ck4 5w-40 from any parts store.
 
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HPsenicka

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OK.. so you are already narrowing the field to CK4 spec, which is relatively recent, and supercedes the CJ4 spec Rotella T6 I was previously using in my PD TDIs.



I am not opposed to house brands, but having some idea of which specs they do or do not comply with seems like a prudent approach.


Just throwing it wide open and saying any 5W40 oil will do the job doesn't cut it. Your initial statement was even a little vague that at least it should be diesel rated and synthetic.


I suspect someone who has little or no appreciation for different oil formulations could misinterpret your comments.
 

turbobrick240

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I meant any 5w-40, not soley CK4 (which isn't all that new any longer). I challenge anybody to find a 5w-40 oil that is not both synthetic and diesel rated - API isn't the only game in town btw. Show me a 5w-40 that you find unacceptable for a deleted CR tdi.
 

740GLE

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I'd say you spend enough on a delete and a tune, mind as well save some coin and pick up T6, crazy cheap.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Just run the same oil. And if you really want to, you can likely go much longer intervals.

This is a good photo for reference on oil filters:



Same oil, same filter, same engine, same everything... one is with all the emissions stuff intact on the left, one without any of it on the right.
 

chattowntdi

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Sorry I didn’t mean to start a debate. In all honesty I’m not nearly as knowledgeable in this area as you all obviously. I ran t6 in my old 1.6 and 1.5 vw’s and all my old Mercedes diesels but after a cam replacement in my 04 pd I tend to lean a little to the cautious side with the newer vw’s. I think for now I will just run the same oil I have been and do a little more research before changing it up. I don’t mind at all paying more per oil change for the peace of mind of having a spec’d oil for my application. Still, thank you all for chiming in and there has been some more great info offered up. Oilhammer, thank you for the comparison pic. That is crazy to think the only change made was emissions delete looking at those two filters.
 

turbobrick240

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I wouldn't necessarily expect every deleted common rail to produce oil filters like in the photo. I did about 8 oil changes @ 10k miles post deletion on mine- and they all looked like the first filter in the photo. It almost looks as though the guy popped in a new filter just before taking the car to oilhammers shop.
 

740GLE

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Sorry I didn’t mean to start a debate. In all honesty I’m not nearly as knowledgeable in this area as you all obviously. I ran t6 in my old 1.6 and 1.5 vw’s and all my old Mercedes diesels but after a cam replacement in my 04 pd I tend to lean a little to the cautious side with the newer vw’s. I think for now I will just run the same oil I have been and do a little more research before changing it up. I don’t mind at all paying more per oil change for the peace of mind of having a spec’d oil for my application. Still, thank you all for chiming in and there has been some more great info offered up. Oilhammer, thank you for the comparison pic. That is crazy to think the only change made was emissions delete looking at those two filters.

IMO PD design (and oil requirement) has as much in common with a CR as it does an IDI from an 80 rabbit.

You def can't go wrong with 507 oil
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I wouldn't necessarily expect every deleted common rail to produce oil filters like in the photo. I did about 8 oil changes @ 10k miles post deletion on mine- and they all looked like the first filter in the photo. It almost looks as though the guy popped in a new filter just before taking the car to oilhammers shop.

That is not true. I personally do the services on this car, and I have seen similar results with all the deleted (but not power-modded) CR TDIs.

My own ALH has a pretty clean filter, too, and I run it 20k miles. Not THAT clean, but pretty close.
 
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turbobrick240

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That is not true. I personally do the services on this car, and I have seen similar results with all the deleted (but not power-modded) CR TDIs.
My own ALH has a pretty clean filter, too, and I run it 20k miles. Not THAT clean, but pretty close.

Well, my tdi experience is just with my car. But I have done a lot of oil changes on diesel engines without egr or dpf systems, and the oil is always black as night. The only exception was when I flushed out my powerstroke after replacing the oil pan. And that oil only had about an hour of run time on it. I'm not saying that a clean filter on a tdi full interval can't happen, just that it wasn't my experience.
 

adjat84th

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I run Mobil1 TDT 5w-40 in both my '01 and deleted '15 with excellent results! There was a comment on one of my UOAs from the UOA thread that the TDT sheared a little bit in the '15, but the wear in the interval was SUPER low and likely not an issue at all. TDT is much cheaper than the 507 flavor and frequently has mail-in rebates that make it even cheaper if you want that little bit of legwork!

Here is my first OCI post delete with TDT and majority highway miles.
 
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740GLE

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But I have done a lot of oil changes on diesel engines without egr or dpf systems,
I think the qualifier would be a modern CR diesel with or without emissions deleted. A lot of magic happens to reduce the amount of soot generated on a CR platform. That's why retrofitting DPF on older non-CR is virtually impossible, by nature they generate tons of soot that ends up in the oil.

I don't think you can compare changing the oil on an old Detroit diesel or a Mercedes OM617 without EGR or a DPF as being the same as changing it on a deleted CR.

Also a tea spoon of sootted oil will make 5-6L appear black as night, so just like you noticed clean oil on the powerstroke after flushing, it'll prob take quite a few regular oil changes to reduce the soot appearance of a filter.
 

turbobrick240

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I think the qualifier would be a modern CR diesel with or without emissions deleted. A lot of magic happens to reduce the amount of soot generated on a CR platform. That's why retrofitting DPF on older non-CR is virtually impossible, by nature they generate tons of soot that ends up in the oil.
I don't think you can compare changing the oil on an old Detroit diesel or a Mercedes OM617 without EGR or a DPF as being the same as changing it on a deleted CR.
Also a tea spoon of sootted oil will make 5-6L appear black as night, so just like you noticed clean oil on the powerstroke after flushing, it'll prob take quite a few regular oil changes to reduce the soot appearance of a filter.
Yeah, I did around 16 oil changes on my commonrail tdi. 8 of them deleted. The filter and oil was always black. We are a weird, obsessive lot of car owners. I wouldn't be shocked if some guy was sneaking in unnecessary intermediate oil changes. I don't buy into the "one teaspoon of used oil completely blackens 5 liters" mumbo jumbo. It takes a lot more than that - as evidenced by my 7.3, which holds a quart or two in the hpop reservoir.

Commonrail injection is a major advancement, but it does not allow for miraculous soot free diesel combustion. If that were the case, dpf tech. would not be required.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Methinks you do not understand how/why DPFs are there. ;)

Here is a little lesson: if a diesel was allowed to run as lean as it can, and with modern high pressure multi-staged injection they can atomize the fuel very well and run very lean, the oil would stay very clean. But because the EPA etc. have such a hard on for NOx, diesels are forced to run much richer than they otherwise have to. EGR plays a big role in this. If there were no NOx worries, there would be no EGR. If there were no EGR, and the engine management was allowed to make the engine trend towards fuel economy and run super lean, you'd also have no need for a DPF. Or at least, much less of a need. Plus, the very nature of a DPF requires the engine run super DUPER rich for a regeneration. Further adding soot to the combustion process.

We see black oil in older diesels simply because they did not have the high injection pressures and good combustion events, even though these engines had little to no emission compliance devices on them. No EGR, no exhaust aftertreatment of any kind.

But we see black oil in newer diesels because they DO have these emissions compliance devices, and, usually, when these devices are "deleted" in the physical sense, the software side gets modded too, and hardly anyone changes the software to keep the output level the same. So that causes an overfueling potential, which, you guessed it, blackens the oil quicker.

But, if you have a modern engine, leave the software to make the engine run for fuel economy and NOT for power, delete the EGR/DPF, you will find that not only does the engine not produce a lot of soot, what it does produce is quickly and easily sent right out the tail pipe and does not get pushed into the oil as quickly.

The NOx is of course through the roof. But that won't do squat to the oil. You cannot "see" NOx coming out the tailpipe. NOx leaves no black inside the engine or exhaust. It is just nitrogen and oxygen atoms fused together after high heat. The air around you is full of nitrogen and oxygen.

The oil filters I pictured are from a car that has such modest tuning... meaning, stock power level... maybe even a bit less, but likely within 5hp. It spends most of its time cruising down the highway at 70 MPH and returns mid 50s MPG reliably tank after tank.

My one ALH has a modest MAF delete tune, no EGR, with a plugged in fixed value of 450 for the MAF. The fueling is based largely off of that. So, it is ALWAYS underfueling compared to a stock ALH under most conditions. The 11mm pump makes it a bit peppier at the bottom end, but it runs of out steam pretty quickly after 3500 RPM or so. Still, it is peppy enough for me, feels a lot like a stock BEW up to that 3500 RPM threshold, gets 50+ reliably, just got 53 on a tank on a trip to Des Moines and back on Saturday, and I run 20k mile service intervals with it. The oil is black when I change it, but for the first ~5k miles it is clean enough you can see through it to the crosshatches on the dipstick. I have verified the soot load of the oil (a diesel's main contributor to the need for oil changes) via two consecutive UOA. The soot level after 10k miles was '0.1'. I still have the sheet right here.

Incidentally, we are also seeing a similar trend with gasoline fueled cars, in which "newer" may mean "cleaner", but it hardly translates to "better" in terms of the engine mechanical health and longevity, largely based on how it hammers the oil. All these newer DI/turbo DI gas engines have oil that comes out black and runny and fuel diluted, like a 1960s lawn mower. And over time, the problem manifests itself as major mechanical failures. So that fleet that bought a whole squadron of C1500 5.3L trucks in 2005 and ran them 1/4 million hard miles with only routine PM? Yeah, they are already finding out that the DI version in the 2015s they got to replace them are blowing up before 100k. GM switching from a 5w30 to a 0w20 certainly didn't help.
 
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740GLE

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Incidentally, we are also seeing a similar trend with gasoline fueled cars, in which "newer" may mean "cleaner", but it hardly translates to "better" in terms of the engine mechanical health and longevity, largely based on how it hammers the oil. All these newer DI/turbo DI gas engines have oil that comes out black and runny and fuel diluted, like a 1960s lawn mower. And over time, the problem manifests itself as major mechanical failures. So that fleet that bought a whole squadron of C1500 5.3L trucks in 2005 and ran them 1/4 million hard miles with only routine PM? Yeah, they are already finding out that the DI version in the 2015s they got to replace them are blowing up before 100k. GM switching from a 5w30 to a 0w20 certainly didn't help.
There's a reason VW is installing PF on their Gassers now (GPF), you solve one problem but usually create a new one.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...ips-petrol-cars-particulate-filter-technology
 

turbobrick240

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I understand how and why dpf's function. They would be required to control particulate emissions even if NOx was considered a benign gas that didn't need to be minimized. It's really the egr system that contributes more to the sooting up of diesel oil. Deleting both of those systems will put less soot into the oil, no doubt. I'd just have to see a 10k mile diesel oil change interval that didn't blacken the filter with my own eyes.

I guess I'm also immediately suspicious of anyone who pays through the nose for a delete and tune and doesn't want any extra power calibrated into that tune. :D
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Well believe it or not, most TDI buyers want fuel efficiency and longevity, and are satisfied with the stock output of the engine... even the 90hp ones.

My dad wanted a "tune" for his Ecoboost F150 just to disable, permanently, the stupid start-stop nonsense.
 

740GLE

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I guess I'm also immediately suspicious of anyone who pays through the nose for a delete and tune and doesn't want any extra power calibrated into that tune. :D
Ahh but deleting is a heck of a lot cheaper than a replacement DPF.
 
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