Carbon removal caused engine damage!

Nicrocc

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Location
California
TDI
Golf
Hello all, I just joined the site. I am very happy to have found this resource. I wish I would of got on here a lot sooner. I’m hoping that you guys can give me some support here and point me in the right direction.
I have an 03 golf manual TDI. I’ve owned the car for 16 months with no problem s. It has 223k and was running like a dream. Then one day it started losing power in first and second gear. I took the car to a friend of mine who is a mechanic. He found an enormous amount of carbon buildup in the EGR valve. So he replaced the EGR, and then he cleaned out the intake by some mechanical methods to remove as much carbon as he could without removing the intake it self. He use sea foam as well. He said this caused a huge gooey mess. He had to change the oil twice to get the goop out. He gave the car back to me but he was to confident in the job. He said he would probably have to remove the whole intake to get it all out. I needed the car.

When I drove the car there was a slight difference in power but it was about the same, the only real difference was that the engine sounded different. I took the car on the freeway for a 60mile drive one way. The car lacked power, and on the way back the car lost all power and then something broke in the engine I was still able to limp off the freeway despite the huge cloud of smoke behind me.

:( it seems like a big piece of carbon broke lose and cause damage, but I don’t know? Car still starts but smokes and when this happened it burnt up all the oil.

Does any know what I should do next. I would like to have the motor rebuilt, but I hear that can be pretty expensive to do. Over $2000
 

joetdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Location
Midwest
TDI
2-2002 Jettas W/Auto
A lot of times when you clean the intake and now have your power back or somewhat. You can pull excess oil from the I/C that would normally not be there. I am wondering your car tried to run away on you. Most of the time when that happens you don't get it started again without a lot of work. A piece of carbon could have gone in the combustion chamber though and now you have a dead cylinder.

Are you saying your crankcase is dry?
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
The only safe way to remove carbon buildup from the intake manifold is to remove it from the car. I'll bet a chunk of carbon got ingested and ruined a piston or the piston rings.
 

narongc73

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
VA/OH
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Yeah your mechanic friend messed it up. Not all mechanics are created equal. You took a gamble, you lost. You should be able to get a used engine for under 2k.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
When cleaning the Intake, as others have posted, it needs to be removed from the engine. Also, probably as important, if not more, the "intake ports" of the head need to be cleaned as well. Sliding on a freshly cleaned Intake on a dirty head is a disaster waiting to happen!

Below is a pic of the two center ports of an ALH head .... Notice all the carbon? Further, notice there have been some chunks flaked off? Well, that chunking off destroyed the head as well as the rest of the engine.





Below, you can see what's left of the cam follower (lifter)



Below, is the cam before it was removed..


.....
Unfortunately, I believe this is what has happened to your engine.
 
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Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
ARG, not again. So sorry for your loss. FYI never let anyone work on your car but yourself or a licensed and insured mechanic company. This would have been covered if some legit shop did this.

For fun, you can pull the head and see what’s going on.

You must remove the intake to clean. I also cleaned my head when it was on the car. Here is what I did in a nut shell. I took the valve cover off and made sure that the runner I was working had the valve closed and on the base circle of the cam. I took various plastic picks, plastic spoons carved to thin profiles and some nylon brushes, and I had my automotive fluid sucker running and a can of carb and brake cleaner. I would scrape and pick and what not and then as I was sucking I would also spray a tiny bit into the runner to clean it out as it was getting sucked up. There is enough room to get your face down at eye level an out of the cover of your eye and with a mirror I could do all of them. I cranked the engine over by hand a few times to make sure that there was no fluid hydro locking it and to expel any fluids that made it past the valves out the glow plug holes. It worked REALLY well, you can’t get into the swirled snail shell part but it got just about all of it. Took me 30 minutes each runner. never put any metal other than brass in there, you could scratch up the valve with a screwdriver so I kept it all soft plastic tools.

NEVER EVER put seafoam into the engine in any way other than in the fuel tank. Gas engines won’t burn that stuff but diesels will run away if you do.

Pull the head and report back if you are brave enough to try and save the engine. It’s probably done for but hey, you should try and investigate it for minimal cost. First step is to do a leak down test and then a compression test if it cranks ok. I would crank it by hand at this point.

Best of luck bud.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
its possible that a chunk got into the engine and got blasted into the turbo. If a piece got into the turbo it would destroy it for sure, this would explain the smoke and loss of power and its ability to limp home. Take the exhaust off and intake to the turbo and wiggle the shaft *LOL* (thats what she said). A tiny bit side to side is normal but next to no forward to back play.

your still going to need to take off the head if it fails a leak down test and or compression test. If its the turbo and the engine came out in fair shape, you might only be out a few hundred bucks for a used turbo. If that was the case i would ask your "friend" "Mechanic" to split the cost with you.
 

Ol'Rattler

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Location
PNA
TDI
2006 BRM Jetta
its possible that a chunk got into the engine and got blasted into the turbo. If a piece got into the turbo it would destroy it for sure, this would explain the smoke and loss of power and its ability to limp home. Take the exhaust off and intake to the turbo and wiggle the shaft *LOL* (thats what she said). A tiny bit side to side is normal but next to no forward to back play.

your still going to need to take off the head if it fails a leak down test and or compression test. If its the turbo and the engine came out in fair shape, you might only be out a few hundred bucks for a used turbo. If that was the case i would ask your "friend" "Mechanic" to split the cost with you.
I approve this post and don't need Benny Hill in drag to tell me otherwise.............
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
A problem here is that there are no real forensics. Complicating it all is this:

I’ve owned the car for 16 months with no problem s. It has 223k and was running like a dream. Then one day it started losing power in first and second gear.

Intake clogging just doesn't happen overnight. Some other issue popped up and then lead to the (unfortunate) intake cleaning. The intake cleaning may or may not have been the underlying CAUSE of whatever damage currently exists. YES, the methodology used by this mechanic was WRONG; however, we have no idea how many such improperly done jobs have resulted in no apparent damage.

The car needs to be taken to a well recognized TDI guru. More data is needed!
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
A: how am i pounding on OP's "mistake"?
B: like UhOh said, this was not the problem to start with. I forget who said it but someone here posted a few months ago that they have seen cars with intakes so clogged up they looked like only a small amount of air was getting in and it never ran that bad.
C: No one covered a good bit of what i said soooo not sure what your talking about, is there another thread i missed?
 

Nicrocc

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Location
California
TDI
Golf
Ok this is awesome. Thanks for all the support! This looks like a very active, and resourceful forum. Ok 1st step is to do a compression test and then pull the head right? And I’m assuming if compression checks out ok I should check the turbo?

Does any have any recommendations on where I could get the best deals on engine parts / rebuild kit or a used engine?
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Where are you in CA?
I and many others have got good used engines and parts from Dutch Auto Parts,
if it comes to that.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
If the OP lived close by, I'd be glad to give him a helping hand.

Did anyone notice the comment at or near the end of the original post (...burnt all of my oil)?

Here is a pic of "plugged" Intake.. This is a copy I got sometime ago. I'm sure back in the days and shortly thereafter of the 500ppm sulfur there were many of these being driven without a clue of the condition!

 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Ok this is awesome. Thanks for all the support! This looks like a very active, and resourceful forum. Ok 1st step is to do a compression test and then pull the head right? And I’m assuming if compression checks out ok I should check the turbo?

Does any have any recommendations on where I could get the best deals on engine parts / rebuild kit or a used engine?
I might go ahead and pull the intake, clean it and check adjacent ports for debris. Clean the intercooler, then proceed with compression check.
 

noob_tl

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Location
Central Indiana
TDI
2003 NB
Did anyone notice the comment at or near the end of the original post (...burnt all of my oil)?
That, and also the comment "He said this caused a huge gooey mess. He had to change the oil twice to get the goop out."

How does the goop from the intake get into the crankcase?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
That, and also the comment "He said this caused a huge gooey mess. He had to change the oil twice to get the goop out."

How does the goop from the intake get into the crankcase?
The "mechanic" probably poured seafoam in far too large a quantity into the intake. The liquid made it into the cylinder and some made it past the rings.

The liquid probably also caused some small hydro-lock events.


OP's mechanic broke this engine. As above, the intake should have come off to be cleaned. The intake, EGR and ports should have been cleaned in a way that introduced no carbon into the cylinders, and the intercooler should have been checked for residual oil after.

Had the "mechanic" done the above, OP's engine would be alive and well.

OP should take this "mechanic" to small claims court for the damage caused to the engine.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Compression test, if it passes, move on to a leak down test, if that passes then start to inspect the turbo, If it passes then move forwards as your engine did not suffer much if any damage.

For the compression test, take out all the glow plugs CAREFULLY, read up on some treads here about glow plugs stripping and how to help prevent that, in a nut shell, mix up some 1:1 acetone and ATF and put a few drops on the glowplug threads area. If they come out easy, then ignore that part, if they don’t come out easy report back before you try and bust them loss.

Compression test:
Get the kit from harbor freight and the adapter for tdi glow plugs.
Write down all your results,
Do 3 tests on each cylinder and take the average value. They should all be the same values, someone can chime in on what to expect for good values. If you get one that has low values, put a few drops of motor oil into the glow plug hole. This will temporarily seal the piston rings for a test. If it makes good compression or much more than the failed value, your piston ring is failed, if that makes no difference, cracked piston or valve issue.
Now move on to leak down test. 50PSI into the fitting into the cylinder with the valves closes (pull the valve cover to verify. Now put your ear up to the exhaust pipe, then the intake, then the oil dipstick tube. If you hear air rushing in any of those then you have a bad valve, if it comes out the dipstick, cracked cylinder or blown piston rings. If air bubbles come out the coolant reservoir than head gasket failed. If any portion failed the leak down test, you’re pulling the head. If compression is good right off the bat and the leak down test shows no results then move to the turbo.
If the turbo has lots of oil in the exhaust pipe and you passed the leak down test, 99.9% you have a blown turbo.

Report back with results. Good luck, hope it’s not too bad.

I would also, just for kicks, get the timing belt inspected and your cam, flywheel and ip all at TDC and if one does not ling up, then this is probably the cause but would not explain the oil loss unless it damages a valve bad enough to dump oil. ITs easy to check the belt as you will have that all exposed when your doing the tests so its worth a look just for the heck of it, i dont foresee this being a problem based on what happened. I would not buy parts until you get this done. Spend $50 on the tools you need to test, have a friend loan you an air compressor.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Its going to be difficult without pictures or a written contract or bill of sales from the "mechanic" i have dealt with small claims enough to know that unless you have proof that he did the work, your going to have a hard time getting any compensation. Whats done is done,

Life is worthless with out learning. Learning is usually done by making mistakes. The better the lesson, the more expensive the mistake.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
The "mechanic" probably poured seafoam in far too large a quantity into the intake. The liquid made it into the cylinder and some made it past the rings.

The liquid probably also caused some small hydro-lock events.


OP's mechanic broke this engine. As above, the intake should have come off to be cleaned. The intake, EGR and ports should have been cleaned in a way that introduced no carbon into the cylinders, and the intercooler should have been checked for residual oil after.

Had the "mechanic" done the above, OP's engine would be alive and well.

OP should take this "mechanic" to small claims court for the damage caused to the engine.
Totally agree with the reenactment, BUT...

I wouldn't be comfortable making the statement that everything would have been fine had the mechanic been competent. Again, there were issues before the mechanic applied his ape hands to this car. Whether the engine was semi-toast before it got fully toasted OR there was only a minor issue and the mechanic ended up totally toasting it we do not know. This is why there needs to be some sort of forensics applied (by an independent, competent ALH mechanic) IF the owner wishes to seek compensation for any damages arising from this intake cleaning work.

Ruling: not enough data.
 

Macradiators.com

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Location
Romania
TDI
2.0 CR 360hp
If there were issues before the damage happened you cant blame it on the mec. He also drove 60 miles after ..it was something waiting to happen.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I seriously doubt the situation is as dire as some claim. It might be, but it's unlikely.

The cylinder head has to come off. Without doing that, it's a bunch of guess-work. If he's really a friend, he will jump in there and help you figure this out.

Seafoam probably loosened up a plug of goop from the intake manifold and it dropped in a cylinder, usually #2 or #3, which can bend a valve and a rod. I seriously doubt it made all that mess in those pictures, And all the goop is difficult to to blow out.

I'll call this a novice mistake, but like I said, if he's really your friend, he won't leave you hanging. He can pull the head in about 3 hrs, with some instruction. Then you will know exactly what to do.

Let me know if I can be any assistance. This is my "daily cup 'o tea".
 

Nicrocc

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Location
California
TDI
Golf
So I haven’t made the time to pull the head off, but I let it run today and this was the result. Oil spilling out of the tail pipe. Could that have more than one culprit?
 
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