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-   -   BHW Balance Shaft Module replacement (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=233651)

oilhammer March 27th, 2009 16:12

Yes, they ARE replacing the balance shaft. Both of them. Because they are inside of that 'differential carrier'.

tdisedanman March 27th, 2009 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Yes, they ARE replacing the balance shaft. Both of them. Because they are inside of that 'differential carrier'.

Ohhhhh! Thanks oilhammer. I stand corrected and apprecite your educating me! I will post scan the finished work order when I get it and upload it to the site. I need to look at the pictures again to get a better idea.

ekkoh99 March 27th, 2009 17:26

Back in town. Thanks Oilhammer. Noise and vibrations at a stop are gone.

Deming, if you want to listen to the car, PM and we can meet somewhere.

tdisedanman March 27th, 2009 17:40

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I know that sometimes VW service can be a hit or miss thing and this job seems like everything must be done precisely i.e., attention to detail is necessary. I'm praying. I hope the car comes out better than when it went in!

abctdi March 27th, 2009 18:33

Well you just saved $3k and they warranty their work for 12mo/10k miles IIRC. Warranty was why I bought a car new...

Smokerr March 27th, 2009 18:34

So far, what seems to occur on ours is that they have a decent mechanic, but he calls the tech guy, they go over it and then he does the work.

I know its also part of the call in for approval, but they seem to be working with the tech guy as well.

I suspect they will do it step by step if needed. Only alternative I have is a couple of independents that I have no idea if they can do that type of work, and obviously will not be like Oilhammer as a centrally located for a lot of people.

Given the choice between the delaer and Oilhammer, a two day drive would be a no brainer decision, even still under warranty.

VW will get it right evenualy, even if they have to replac the whole gnine!

The expreicne with the Turob says it all though. One day in, the replace the actuator valve. Doesn't fix it.

Nesxt time in, they get swamped and I get it back for another week because they will not get it done (I apprciated the call to let me decide, as driving the turck at the time was a huge fuel bill, and we had tons of errends).

Next time it was at the head of the line, but that was 4 days taken up. Your time is worth something, and you can't plan on anything.

wildman March 29th, 2009 06:48

Hoo!!Ray!!! Chainless motoring at last, thanks to MOGolf who installed the BS and TB etc. My wagon is alive, smooth and less noisy, with much less vibration...less vibration looking at and listening to the engine and from within the cabin. Replaced motor mount that probably contributed, again sincere thanks to MOGolf. (Reportedly the chain was appropriately stretched and still in decent shape) I see this service as an upgrade and due to reduced vibration may benefit the life of the car. len

deming March 29th, 2009 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildman
Hoo!!Ray!!! Chainless motoring at last, thanks to MOGolf who installed the BS and TB etc. My wagon is alive, smooth and less noisy, with much less vibration...less vibration looking at and listening to the engine and from within the cabin. Replaced motor mount that probably contributed, again sincere thanks to MOGolf. (Reportedly the chain was appropriately stretched and still in decent shape) I see this service as an upgrade and due to reduced vibration may benefit the life of the car. len

How many miles were on your engine / car ??

wildman March 29th, 2009 10:13

How many miles were on your engine / car ??83,573 2004 TDI wagon

len

leicaman March 29th, 2009 10:18

Sounds like you got it done wildman before any serious mayhem! Happy motoring.

tdisedanman March 30th, 2009 09:02

Dealer says cam shows signs of wear, wants oil change proofs for 5 - 40K per VW.

abctdi March 30th, 2009 11:12

They'll want that anyway for any warranty work, but cam wear issues are more a problem for the 1.9 TDIs. Hope they are not confused.

KALaBenne March 30th, 2009 11:25

I thought I read oilhammer say the cam's in the BHWs were a PITA to check, I have a hard time believing they tore it apart just to check if you were using the right oil.

What I think to be most likely, is that they are trying to weasel out of fixing the BS under warantee. Where did you get your oil? I know TDIparts will go back and print your old invoices for you. If you bought at the dealer, you would think they'd have a record. Or, maybe you paid for your oil with a credit card? Anyway you can prove you did it? did you write it in a little black book?

Don't let them off the hook here.

oilhammer March 30th, 2009 11:27

Well, he took it to a dealer, and this dealer clearly has no clue about what they are doing or what they are looking at. I would assume they refused to even look at the information presented to them about the BHW's balance shaft chain issue. :rolleyes:

I cannot help any more than I already have. Sorry. :(

TheGrove March 30th, 2009 17:08

The cams are not the easiest to check but you can get the valve cover off and get down and look.

Just an FYI, I had mine a a dealer for a check engine light that ended up being MAF and Underboost codes. The dealer told me my cam was worn and was causing my problems as well. Naturally I said I would have to think about it (while my mind said "yeah right, that is a pile of BS"). I had Metal Man look at mine and he didn't see any wear (naturally).

In the end my problem was a split in the hose that connects the charged air system to the intake manifold.

abctdi March 31st, 2009 09:23

1.9 vs. 2.0...what is so hard about that? Check out post #66 here;
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=241279&page=5

ekkoh99 March 31st, 2009 16:00

Another question for Oilhammer...

What do you think about the Audi/VW V6 TDI engine that will be in the Q7 and Touareg? I read on the VW canada website that the oil pump is run by a chain. There is a pic there too.

vw4life March 31st, 2009 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekkoh99
Another question for Oilhammer...

What do you think about the Audi/VW V6 TDI engine that will be in the Q7 and Touareg? I read on the VW canada website that the oil pump is run by a chain. There is a pic there too.

Here is an URL for more info. Chain driven timing and chain driven oil pump.

http://www.vw.ca/vwcms/master_public...etail.1.0.html

ENGINE DESIGN
ArrangementFront mounted, longitudinalCylinder BlockCast ironCrank ShaftForged steel, seven main bearingsCylinder HeadAluminum alloy, cross flowValve TrainDual overhead camshaft, chain driven, four valves per cylinder, maintenance free hydraulic lifters, variable valve timingCooling SystemWater cooled, thermostatically controlled electric radiator fanLubricationChain-driven duocentric oil pumpFuel / Air SupplyElectronically controlled direct injection (EDC), turbochargerEmissionsTier II, BIN5

tdisedanman March 31st, 2009 16:41

VW comes through with warranty!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Well, he took it to a dealer, and this dealer clearly has no clue about what they are doing or what they are looking at. I would assume they refused to even look at the information presented to them about the BHW's balance shaft chain issue. :rolleyes:

I cannot help any more than I already have. Sorry. :(


No, they are informed about the BS issue oilhammer, Now, knowing about an issue and doing the repair are two different things.

Also, I am getting my information from the service writer who is not as well versed as say a master mechanic is.

Sent copies of dealer invoices and world impex orders with mileage and dates of oil changes to VW shop today as per request of VWOA. Service writer called me and stated VW has approved the repairs whatever they are! It was late today when I got the call so I'll call the service mgr tomorrow to find out exactly what they are planning on doing. At this point, I don't know if they are doing the top end or lower end or both. They did say the oil pressure was low. The service writer mentioned a shortblock....

It is actually a very nice dealer to do business wth and I have been mostly pleased with their service. They care and it shows.

They could have easily sent me packing after replacing the BS assembly and I probably would not have had any clue of any other issues until to late.

Please forgive my ignorance as some of my descriptions/statements may be worded incorrectly and also, I am relying on the statements of the service writer who is not a master mechanic.

As a computer systems admin, I am skilled and talk Microsoftease which some of you mechanics may not speak. However, when it comes to the complexities of the PD engine, I am not well versed or detail oriented. While this site has helped me take care of oil changes and some other verfy rudimentary things, the real technical stuff is beyond my grasp unless someone takes the time to explain it to me.

As always, I want to thank everyone for their recommendations and comments. The tdiclub is a great place and I ma glad to have been a member for the past 4 years. Long live the TDI and tdiclub!

oilhammer March 31st, 2009 17:29

To the person asking about the new 3.0L V6 TDI: yes, it has multiple chains, on the flywheel end of the engine, and yes it looks like it will be an expensive nightmare to service when the time comes.

Here is a pic of the back side of that engine:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/medium/IMG_6766.jpg

As for the above poster....if they put a short block in your car, which it most likely does NOT need, it will most likely still have the old chain bits in its bottom end, and you'll still be in the same boat. :o

CalgaryTDI March 31st, 2009 21:34

BS Dealer Replacement
 
Sorry for the delay in responding to your questions about my BS replacement here in Calgary. My earlier post indicated that yes the VW warranty (the powertrain warranty) covered the entire cost of the BS replacement, hence the price veing so reasonable for all the work done on my car. Yes, Fifth Avenue Auto Haus, one of the three VW dealers here in Calgary is aware of the issue and it was actually brought up to me by the service writer even before I could ask him about it! I had actually booked my car in for glow plugs and was going to ask about the BS issue but he beat me to the punch.

I thought he was doing me a favor by embellishing about the noise to get it covered under warranty but he told me when they opened it up there was in fact alot of play in the balance shafts and was in fact loud. I tell you its a different car with the gear assembly- much quieter, smoother and I swear it accelerates quicker (likely in my head but its the perception I have). The service writer mentioned he was bringing the issue up with all his regular Passat TDI owner service customers. I was beyond pleased with him and the dealership! VW Canada knew the chain had not broken but still authorized the replacement of the assembly, so thats good news.

By the way - I called it a timing chain (instead of belt) replacement in my earlier post - must have been thinking of my old BMW 2002- it had a chain:) .

PlaneCrazy April 1st, 2009 05:57

Calgary, thanks for the update. My dealer, generally pretty savvy about TDIs, had not yet experienced one so didn't know about the issue. My only issue is that I am very far out of warranty at 171,000 km. I'm hoping against all odds to get some help from the dealer or VW though when I bring the car in for service in two weeks.

sschnath April 1st, 2009 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
To the person asking about the new 3.0L V6 TDI: yes, it has multiple chains, on the flywheel end of the engine, and yes it looks like it will be an expensive nightmare to service when the time comes.

Here is a pic of the back side of that engine:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/medium/IMG_6766.jpg

Doesn't look expensive to me. It looks like VW finally figured out that if they're going to continue to implement bad designs they'll just leave the parts exposed for easy access! :D

oilhammer April 1st, 2009 09:24

Heh, yeah, on the stand it looks pretty simple, doesn't it? :p

But consider this: 4 chains. 6 plastic guides/shoes. 4 tensioners. 10 sprockets. Plus the cover. None of this accessible until after the engine/transmission are seperated, which anyone that knows AWD longitudinal-mounted VAG products is a BIG job. Then the CATA V6 still has a Gilmer belt to run the high pressure diesel pump, with its little tensioner.

I predict a lot of CHEAP V6 TDI equipped VAG products in the next coming years. :D

TDIJetta99 April 1st, 2009 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
I predict a lot of CHEAP V6 TDI equipped VAG products in the next coming years. :D

I'll take one or three :p

maktas April 1st, 2009 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Heh, yeah, on the stand it looks pretty simple, doesn't it? :p

But consider this: 4 chains. 6 plastic guides/shoes. 4 tensioners. 10 sprockets. Plus the cover. None of this accessible until after the engine/transmission are seperated, which anyone that knows AWD longitudinal-mounted VAG products is a BIG job. Then the CATA V6 still has a Gilmer belt to run the high pressure diesel pump, with its little tensioner.

I predict a lot of CHEAP V6 TDI equipped VAG products in the next coming years. :D

Good future job security for you OH! Just look at the business these pesky BHWs have provided!

vw4life April 1st, 2009 11:58

Maybe it will be a "VW lifetime" service interval meaning that you "never" have to do it (says the nice sales man)

VLS_GUY April 1st, 2009 19:03

Oilhammer,

I was the guy that asked for the hardware count on timing chains, guides, tensioners etc. It has the part count I was scared of, but I didn't know about the gilmer belt to run the injection pump.
Want to hazard a guess on the labor required to do a timing chain job on this?

VLS_GUY April 1st, 2009 19:09

CalgaryTDI,

Can you get from Fifth Avenue Auto Haus the documentation that encouraged them to put BS module replacement under warranty? That would be interesting for many on TDICLUB. Also what is Fifth Avenue Auto Haus cost for doing this CDN?

Mark

Skidor April 3rd, 2009 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by VLS_GUY
CalgaryTDI,

Can you get from Fifth Avenue Auto Haus the documentation that encouraged them to put BS module replacement under warranty? That would be interesting for many on TDICLUB. Also what is Fifth Avenue Auto Haus cost for doing this CDN?

Mark

22% exchange rate may prove worthy of a trip to Calgary...;)

VLS_GUY April 3rd, 2009 09:30

You would not only get the 22-21% exchange rate but you could also get the 6% GST refunded if you live outside Canada. In Alberta also no sales tax...
Sounds like a trip to calgary during stampede week is in order-IF they can get any work done during that party.

Wobbly April 3rd, 2009 09:33

Option to BS Module Replacement?
 
I haven't been following the forum very carefully, having labored under the delusion that our Tdi engine was semi-bullet proof. This question may have already been discussed. Would replacement of the chain and tensioner be an option to module replacement? Granted that this approach is not a permanent solution and would not perform as well. Or is there almost as much labor required to replace the chain and tensioner as to replace the module?

aja8888 April 3rd, 2009 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wobbly
I haven't been following the forum very carefully, having labored under the delusion that our Tdi engine was semi-bullet proof. This question may have already been discussed. Would replacement of the chain and tensioner be an option to module replacement? Granted that this approach is not a permanent solution and would not perform as well. Or is there almost as much labor required to replace the chain and tensioner as to replace the module?

The chain and associated parts are no longer sold. The gear set replaced them. The engine is semi-bullet proof. Note the word "semi". And to get at the chain is 1/2 the labor as the nose has to be removed from the car.

Wobbly April 3rd, 2009 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by VLS_GUY
You would not only get the 22-21% exchange rate but you could also get the 6% GST refunded if you live outside Canada. In Alberta also no sales tax...
Sounds like a trip to calgary during stampede week is in order-IF they can get any work done during that party.

The visitor tax rebate program was gutted in 2007:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/rc4031/

Another gotcha is that Bank of America and many other banks tack on a hefty "Foreign Transaction Fee" when any purchase is made with their credit cards outside the USA.

VLS_GUY April 3rd, 2009 13:08

Thanks for that info the last time I bought anything durable in Canada was in 2006.

Scott_DeWitt April 3rd, 2009 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by VLS_GUY
Thanks for that info the last time I bought anything durable in Canada was in 2006.

Don't forget that any service or commodity brought into the USA over $600 bucks while traveling must be declared and duty paid. This includes work done to automobiles.

whitedog April 3rd, 2009 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott_DeWitt
Don't forget that any service or commodity brought into the USA over $600 bucks while traveling must be declared and duty paid. This includes work done to automobiles.

I wonder if the duty was paid when TopGear came back after having the TDI swapped into the Sipster.

PlaneCrazy April 3rd, 2009 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott_DeWitt
Don't forget that any service or commodity brought into the USA over $600 bucks while traveling must be declared and duty paid. This includes work done to automobiles.

You think the border agent is going to listen to your car and say "my, that TDI sounds awfully quiet, you must have had the BS module replaced while you were in Canada, I'm gonna ding you for the duty"?

Not that I'd encourage anyone to break the law. At least here in Canuckistan, coming in from the States, I believe that if the repairs on your car were because of a breakdown and necessary to continue your trip, they're duty-free.

One COULD always argue that the repairs were necessary to safely continue their trip.

Wobbly April 4th, 2009 09:19

This is a question that is related to the 'VW Time Units' thread over in the VW General Discussion Forum. Since the Technical Products Information bulletin for this job lists Time Units for this work and refers to them as 'Accounting Instructions', does this mean that VW considers this to be warranty work.

oilhammer April 4th, 2009 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wobbly
This is a question that is related to the 'VW Time Units' thread over in the VW General Discussion Forum. Since the Technical Products Information bulletin for this job includes lists Time Units for this work, does this mean that VW considers it to be warranty work.

If it broke while under warranty, those times would be applied as such. Volkswagen always shows time units like that.

That is why the 470 tu (4.7 hrs) reflects such a low time. We charge 8 hours to do this job, and quite frankly that is more than fair. That is why warranty jobs get rushed (and often tooefed) so much, because you simply cannot earn a living on that time/pay scale.

CalgaryTDI April 4th, 2009 13:07

According to the Service Writer and the Invoice, they called VW to get permission first off to pull the oilpan to look inside (based on the noise and vibration), then called back to get instructions when they were told to replace the mechanism. I will ask Carl next time I'm there to see what documentation they relied on to make the initial call, though Carl had said they had done three counting mine now and were anticipating a number more as the cars reached a bit of age.

Incidentally, this car had the chain and tensioner replaced at 16,000 kms under warranty so clearly that doesn't buy alot of time! In this case, under 70kms.

Yes, the exchange rate is favorable right now for Americans to come up here to Alberta. Stampede is a good time though the hotels are all full.

If you're serious, I'd call up Fifth Avenue service at 403-273-2500 to see how they are handling these things. Carl is my service writer and is the one who is aware of the issues.

energy April 6th, 2009 10:15

So I'm somewhat new to this forum, but read it all the time. I'm Zack and I llive in WA state. I have an '05 Passat Tdi wagon that just turned 50K, we bought it in '07 with 12K on it; the lot I bought it from said the dealer had 'taken it back' from the original owner because it needed a new cylinder head for some reason, but it carried the full warranty so it didn't raise any red flags for me. It's been a great car, no problems knock wood, but this balance shaft issue has me very worried. If this was not my wife's car, I might take the BS project on myself, as I wrench a bit, but I think from reading threads on the depth of the process I'd rather have a professional shop do it, and do it right. Since there is 10K left on the powertrain warranty, I've contacted several dealers in my area--Hahn VW in Yakima, Carter in Seattle, Campbell/Nelson, and I think I'll ask University VW in Seattle too. As my wife started the car up this morning, I swear I heard a sound that sounded like a loose chain...grrrr....

Anybody have any luck with any WA dealers preventatively replacing BS if car is still under warranty?


thx
-Zack

abctdi April 6th, 2009 16:03

Yes. A few of us have.

Lug_Nut April 6th, 2009 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888
The chain and associated parts are no longer sold.

TDIParts ordered, and received, a full set of replacement chain drive parts. They were considering stocking sets. I advised against that for: too few sales, too much money tied up in inventory, too much risk of incorrect installation on the part of the purchaser, too much risk of other items being fubarred (toofed is a better word) when the tensioner lets all hell break loose. The chain, tensioner and sprocket set was returned, but these parts are still out there.
But why? There isn't all that much difference in price of the parts between the two types. The labor is nearly identical.
If you really, REALLY want to put another live round in your Russian Roulette chain drive BHW, go right ahead. For a few dollars more you could eliminate the risk completely.

DickSilver April 6th, 2009 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by energy
So I'm somewhat new to this forum, but read it all the time. I'm Zack and I llive in WA state. I have an '05 Passat Tdi wagon that just turned 50K, we bought it in '07 with 12K on it; the lot I bought it from said the dealer had 'taken it back' from the original owner because it needed a new cylinder head for some reason, but it carried the full warranty so it didn't raise any red flags for me. It's been a great car, no problems knock wood, but this balance shaft issue has me very worried. If this was not my wife's car, I might take the BS project on myself, as I wrench a bit, but I think from reading threads on the depth of the process I'd rather have a professional shop do it, and do it right. Since there is 10K left on the powertrain warranty, I've contacted several dealers in my area--Hahn VW in Yakima, Carter in Seattle, Campbell/Nelson, and I think I'll ask University VW in Seattle too. As my wife started the car up this morning, I swear I heard a sound that sounded like a loose chain...grrrr....

Anybody have any luck with any WA dealers preventatively replacing BS if car is still under warranty?

thx
-Zack

Energy: If the car had a cylinder head replaced under warranty so soon in its lifetime, it would profit you to find out why, if you can. The most likely cause of cyl head replacement is the use of wrong motor oil type, though if VW could prove that was the case, they'd probably void the warranty. BE SURE you are using VW 505.01 oil; if you can't be sure, change it YESTERDAY!! That oil is tested to have the film strength needed for the very high cam contact pressures from the PD injectors.

energy April 6th, 2009 20:23

Thanks DickSilver.

I've been driving diesels for some time, and take extra special care of the oil situation, using Motul 505.01 ordered online. I too don't trust the dealers... I'll poke around a bit and see why the cylinder head was replaced, but from what the lot told me, the original owner couldn't get the car started--it just turned over and over and over, and since it the car had under 12K on it, the dealership "took it back" and replaced the cylinder head for some reason. Now you got me curious. My car still is still under warranty, and I know that for sure. I can totally show the oil/filters were purchased and when. I also wrote a letter to VWoA expressing my concern, and have written 4 dealers in the state also. I wanna get it done. I'm kind of thinking I'm starting to hear a loose chain slap or something. Damn. I've got until 60K or next November before my warranty is up, so if the chain goes and I can prove I did the correct oil type and interval, then even if the engine dies that's considered under the powertrain warranty. I'd rather not see it go that far, but time will tell. If any of the dealers come clean and give me a preventative BS replacement, I'm telling everyone...

b5r April 7th, 2009 16:51

So.... i hate dealing with dealers because its just like you say... they do not know anything about this car. IT IS SICK. Also you get pushed around because nobody knows anything. Can someone please tell me where I can get this module problem priced or fixed for when mine does break. Im located in Portland, OR and it seams these dealers here have not heard or ever seen an VW with this problem.

tdisedanman April 7th, 2009 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by energy
Thanks DickSilver.

I've been driving diesels for some time, and take extra special care of the oil situation, using Motul 505.01 ordered online. I too don't trust the dealers... I'll poke around a bit and see why the cylinder head was replaced, but from what the lot told me, the original owner couldn't get the car started--it just turned over and over and over, and since it the car had under 12K on it, the dealership "took it back" and replaced the cylinder head for some reason. Now you got me curious. My car still is still under warranty, and I know that for sure. I can totally show the oil/filters were purchased and when. I also wrote a letter to VWoA expressing my concern, and have written 4 dealers in the state also. I wanna get it done. I'm kind of thinking I'm starting to hear a loose chain slap or something. Damn. I've got until 60K or next November before my warranty is up, so if the chain goes and I can prove I did the correct oil type and interval, then even if the engine dies that's considered under the powertrain warranty. I'd rather not see it go that far, but time will tell. If any of the dealers come clean and give me a preventative BS replacement, I'm telling everyone...

I started hearing noise at close to 50K. Still in warranty. Dealer heard it also. They ordered the BS module but then found the car had low oil pressure (which I posted about in another BS module thread). I had to prove what oil I used and the oil change interval adhered to was within mfr specs.

I should have the car back soon.

energy April 7th, 2009 22:09

Tdisedanman-
Any chance you could tell me your dealer's name and location/phone so at the very worst "I can have my dealer call your dealer" he he he!:(. Seriously though, I think it would be an arrow in my quiver to walk into my dealer and say, well, my buddy down in Florida just had his done at his dealer, they heard the noise too, and are fixing it SO THE ENGINE DOESN'T EXPLODE... Also, is your dealer covering the cost? All of the cost?

tdisedanman April 8th, 2009 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by energy
Tdisedanman-
Any chance you could tell me your dealer's name and location/phone so at the very worst "I can have my dealer call your dealer" he he he!:(. Seriously though, I think it would be an arrow in my quiver to walk into my dealer and say, well, my buddy down in Florida just had his done at his dealer, they heard the noise too, and are fixing it SO THE ENGINE DOESN'T EXPLODE... Also, is your dealer covering the cost? All of the cost?

PM sent with dealer name. My issue was a bad oil pump according to the diagnosis.

they wrote: BAK (oil pump) internal failure causing noise. performed initial check found pulley noise coming from engine area. Removed front bumper, removed both serpiten belts. Noise remains. Donfirmed noise coming from engine oil pan area. Contacted tech line and got case #. Removed subframe, removed oil pan. removed oil pump module. removed crank shaft outer bolt and gear. Removed front crank shaft cover. Removed gear for oil pump module. FOUND VALVE KEEPER IN OIL PICK UP TUBE. Was advised to remove valve cover and inspect valeve and cam shaft for missing parts.
Found last cam lobe has dark scoring. Was advised to remove crank and rod caps for inspection for bearing. Was advised to replace engine. removed core support assembly. removed engine assembly. Removed cylinder head for core. Reinstalled all parts back on short engine for core return Installed new short block engine. Installed new cylinder head. Installed new timing belt, tensioner and roller. Reinstalled core support. Installed 4.75 qts of desil oil. Filled coolant system. Road test.

I paid the cost of a new water pump. Everything else was warranty. VW was great. Service advisor kept me in the loop. I have to say, i give them a 10 rating. I just hope this new engine has a better cam so the injector pumps don't wipe it out in another 50K.

v8volvo April 8th, 2009 20:47

Whoa. A valve keeper ended up in the pan?? Wow. They did a good job, though granted their engine pretty much ate itself alive so they better have made it right....

You still have a chain drive assy... but at least this buys you a lot of time before you have to do anything about it. Maybe by the time it becomes necessary for your chain to be done, there will be a strong precedent for VW dealing with that too.

tdisedanman April 9th, 2009 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by v8volvo
Whoa. A valve keeper ended up in the pan?? Wow. They did a good job, though granted their engine pretty much ate itself alive so they better have made it right....

You still have a chain drive assy... but at least this buys you a lot of time before you have to do anything about it. Maybe by the time it becomes necessary for your chain to be done, there will be a strong precedent for VW dealing with that too.

No, the new engine has the gear driven bs assembly.

tomo366 April 9th, 2009 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdisedanman
No, the new engine has the gear driven bs assembly.

Are you sure???:eek:

sincoa April 9th, 2009 12:03

Well, I just got off the phone with Katie Fox of VWoA and we had essentially the same conversation that she has had with others who reported here. In addition to telling me that the part was replaced because of the supplier issue, she told me that "parts fail" and I said that at least with a timing belt, you know to be on the lookout for it and she said that timing belts can fail prematurely. She said that she has "bumped it up to the highest level of authority and that they are aware of it" but that no decision has been made. She also said that in Europe, all they didi was issue the TSB alerting people of the part change, but they did not do a recall campaign. Of course, she said that they could not reimburse me, "especially at an independent shop" and it was clear that she did not want to continue talking to me once she made her few points. It was like, OK, I've said what I've said and while she was nice, she was also pretty curt about getting off the phone. I haven't heard back from NHTSA yet and my congressman wrote back saying that he will look into it. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do. Katie Fox suggested the Better Business Bureau and the Attorney General - maybe I should. Even though the conversation went as expected, I'm still disappointed with their response. -Andrea

cconrad April 9th, 2009 12:10

Balance Shaft issue. question for those that do the Repair
 
I Have the 05 tdi passat wagon. I did take it in today to the dealer as it is ~4000 kms left on the powertrain warranty. They were not able to confirm the noise. I can have them, at my expense take the pan off and check the tolerances, what are the chances that it would be within limits at 96,000 kms ?

I know Calgary Autohaus has done 3 under warranty so far, but I'd be out of warranty driving that far.

oilhammer April 9th, 2009 13:11

There won't be anything to see most likely. But the last 2 I did had chunks falling off when I dropped the pan. They were both out of warranty however.

cconrad April 9th, 2009 14:59

crap
 
Thanks oilhammer, I was kinda hoping since the vw doccument mentioned tolerances that it could somehow be measured so if there was play in the shaft, chain, tensioners ect.. they could verify and replace.... I paid close attention to this thread, and seen Calagrytdi got his done even though there was no part failure, guess it'd be worth a couple hrs labor for them to look even if there was only a 20% chance they'd support a replacement.... otherwise it's off to Toronto or a long trip to st. louis to have it done proper........

aja8888 April 9th, 2009 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cconrad
Thanks oilhammer, I was kinda hoping since the vw doccument mentioned tolerances that it could somehow be measured so if there was play in the shaft, chain, tensioners ect.. they could verify and replace.... I paid close attention to this thread, and seen Calagrytdi got his done even though there was no part failure, guess it'd be worth a couple hrs labor for them to look even if there was only a 20% chance they'd support a replacement.... otherwise it's off to Toronto or a long trip to st. louis to have it done proper........

cconrad: to get to the chain assembly to inspect it would be more than a couple of hours labor. The nose has to be removed from the car and then the oil pan and TB cover (at a minimum).

Skidor April 9th, 2009 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by cconrad
I Have the 05 tdi passat wagon. I did take it in today to the dealer as it is ~4000 kms left on the powertrain warranty. They were not able to confirm the noise. I can have them, at my expense take the pan off and check the tolerances, what are the chances that it would be within limits at 96,000 kms ?

I know Calgary Autohaus has done 3 under warranty so far, but I'd be out of warranty driving that far.

There's always an option of Lowboying the car to the shop. When I was looking at it, shipping the vehicle from southern TX to California was about 600 bucks.

oilhammer April 9th, 2009 18:07

I just had one shipped in from PA. Not sure how much it cost him but I could find out.

Heli wrench April 9th, 2009 20:05

Update 2500 miles with gears
 
Just passed 2500 miles since Oilhammer completed my upgrade last month.......runs perfect. No issues. A couple of things I've noticed - way smoother at all speeds, especially accellerating up through 80. It does seem to average a tad lower MPG's on the display, I used to get 40-42 and now it seems to run about 39.5 but it could be the fuel. I've noticed variances in the past like this.

For all those contemplating or dreading the drive to see Brian..... believe me, it's worth it.

TDIJetta99 April 9th, 2009 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888
cconrad: to get to the chain assembly to inspect it would be more than a couple of hours labor. The nose has to be removed from the car and then the oil pan and TB cover (at a minimum).

You don't have to remove the nose to get the oil pan down.. support the engine from the top and trans from the bottom and lower the subframe way down.. The pan will come out.. You can have that pan off in less than an hour if you're on a mission.. You can inspect more than enough of the chain assembly with just the pan removed..

aja8888 April 9th, 2009 20:33

Thanks for the correction.

Tony

abctdi April 9th, 2009 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sincoa
Well, I just got off the phone with Katie Fox of VWoA and we had essentially the same conversation that she has had with others who reported here. In addition to telling me that the part was replaced because of the supplier issue, she told me that "parts fail" and I said that at least with a timing belt, you know to be on the lookout for it and she said that timing belts can fail prematurely. She said that she has "bumped it up to the highest level of authority and that they are aware of it" but that no decision has been made. She also said that in Europe, all they didi was issue the TSB alerting people of the part change, but they did not do a recall campaign. Of course, she said that they could not reimburse me, "especially at an independent shop" and it was clear that she did not want to continue talking to me once she made her few points. It was like, OK, I've said what I've said and while she was nice, she was also pretty curt about getting off the phone. I haven't heard back from NHTSA yet and my congressman wrote back saying that he will look into it. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do. Katie Fox suggested the Better Business Bureau and the Attorney General - maybe I should. Even though the conversation went as expected, I'm still disappointed with their response. -Andrea

She simply ran out of script...

oilhammer April 10th, 2009 04:10

I think all of her responses now are just canned and well rehearsed. It is what her superiors told her to say. Not her fault, don't take it personally.

I am discussing the situation with a lawyer now, and will certainly keep everyone posted.

johnboy00 April 10th, 2009 09:44

Vw's customer service dept.

http://www.psfk.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/11.jpg

sincoa April 10th, 2009 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnboy00

LOL- Thanks for giving me a good laugh about it! And thanks to the others who replied to my post. I hope the lawyer has good things to tell you Oilhammer and that we can get somewhere with this. It really is unconscionable how they're handling it. Have a great Easter everyone! -Andrea

aja8888 April 10th, 2009 10:55

Too bad those yellow techs above can't grow their noses like below:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...88/3Hmwu-1.jpg

D Thomas April 11th, 2009 09:41

I replaced the balance shaft in my passat tdi last week am pleased with the result... there is a noise missing. I did notice that I have now lost about 5 mpg from what I used to get. Is this normal?

TDIJetta99 April 11th, 2009 09:46

that's normal if your cam timing is slightly off.. even 2 degrees can have a noticeable impact on fuel economy.. I forgot which measuring block it is, but you can check the actual cam timing with vag-com. I usually try to get it right on zero, or one degree on the advanced side..

volkswagendude April 11th, 2009 13:17

Concerning the fuel economy loss, is it possible that the gear assembly needs a small break in period of sorts?

It also seems to be well documented all over the net(google it...gear vs chain), that there is a a very small, but still measurable dyno measured power loss at the wheels with gear over chain. The bike guys will attest to that.

Could this be the reason for tiny fuel economy loss some are reporting?

PlaneCrazy April 11th, 2009 13:32

I'm wondering... I haven't got the geared BS yet but I did notice a slight fuel economy loss after my timing belt was done last year. I wonder if they got the cam timing right... I guess I will have to check it with my VAG-COM, never clued in that you could to that.

DickSilver April 11th, 2009 15:11

I assume you guys are talking PD engines, right? The timing of this engine is different than the older VWs. In the older ones, cam timing, and more importantly, injection pump timing, were directly determined by the timing belt. Using Vag-Com, you could look at injection timing and adjust & fine-tune it by turning the injection pump, then tightening the pump mounting screws.

In a PD engine, the cam timing is set only by the initial timing belt setup when installing a new belt. The camshaft then governs valve opening & closing directly. The camshaft also actuates the individual PD injector/pumps above each cylinder, each one a few milliseconds (I think) before injection is required. However, there is a small solenoid valve at each cylinder. When not energized, that valve lets fuel bypass and it goes into the return line back to the fuel tank.

The ECU is monitoring all engine & environmental parameters, including the throttle position and the crankshaft position sensor. Then, at the exact microsecond that the ECU calculates that each cylinder should receive its injection of fuel, that solenoid valve is energized, closing the bypass and sending high-pressure fuel to that injector. This way, multiple injection pulses are possible as well.

Because the timing of the injection pulse(es) is(are) determined by the ECU based on the crankshaft position sensor, the timing belt has no role in fine-tuning the fuel injection timing. However, if the timing belt were to be installed one or more teeth off, there would be a cam timing error that could not be corrected.

dlai April 11th, 2009 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Thomas
I replaced the balance shaft in my passat tdi last week am pleased with the result... there is a noise missing. I did notice that I have now lost about 5 mpg from what I used to get. Is this normal?

Who did the work? Yourself, a dealer, or someone here?

Lug_Nut April 11th, 2009 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by volkswagendude
It also seems to be well documented all over the net(google it...gear vs chain), that there is a a very small, but still measurable dyno measured power loss at the wheels with gear over chain. The bike guys will attest to that.

The power loss is only an apparent loss that shows up with inertial acceleration dynos. The rotational mass of gears is like larger brakes or heavier tires or more flywheel mass, it just takes that much power to spin up that additional mass, like adding 10 or 20 lbs to the rollers, but not accounting for that mass change in the calculations. Engine dynos that don't rely on F=MA to calculate torque don't show any loss.

D Thomas April 11th, 2009 17:57

I did the work myself. Before I removed the timing belt, I installed the crank timing tool but had trouble installing the cam lock pin. I had to remove the crank timing tool and advance the engine about a 1/4 of a tooth on the belt before the camshaft lock tool would engage. Then I backed up the engine and installed the crankshaft timing tool. When I put the new belt on, I rotated the engine two complete turns and the timing tools both went in perfectly at the same time. After all of this I wondered if I should be hooking this up to a computer and checking the timing. By the way, the BS instructions on here were great. Thanks guys!

volkswagendude April 11th, 2009 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut
The power loss is only an apparent loss that shows up with inertial acceleration dynos. The rotational mass of gears is like larger brakes or heavier tires or more flywheel mass, it just takes that much power to spin up that additional mass, like adding 10 or 20 lbs to the rollers, but not accounting for that mass change in the calculations. Engine dynos that don't rely on F=MA to calculate torque don't show any loss.

Ok, I'm really a little confused now. So when they say that chain drives(on bikes now) are a little bit more efficient at transmitting the power to the wheels than shaft drives, where do the words " more efficient" come into play, and what does it mean in practical terms?

TDIJetta99 April 11th, 2009 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by volkswagendude
Ok, I'm really a little confused now. So when they say that chain drives(on bikes now) are a little bit more efficient at transmitting the power to the wheels than shaft drives, where do the words " more efficient" come into play, and what does it mean in practical terms?

Hehe.. simple terms, only ones I know for the bike applications, means the chain drive bike is faster if the engine output remains the same.. The belt drives let you have your cake and eat it... As efficient as the chain drive, but smooth like the shaft drive..

TDIJetta99 April 11th, 2009 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickSilver

Because the timing of the injection pulse(es) is(are) determined by the ECU based on the crankshaft position sensor, the timing belt has no role in fine-tuning the fuel injection timing. However, if the timing belt were to be installed one or more teeth off, there would be a cam timing error that could not be corrected.

Physical cam timing alone can have a profound impact on engine efficiency and fuel economy.. 2 degrees either way can and will make a slight difference.. 2 degrees is not a lot of movement.. I know in a gas application, 4 degrees of cam timing can shift the engine's powerband up or down by a few hundred rpms..

IndigoBlueWagon April 12th, 2009 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut
TDIParts ordered, and received, a full set of replacement chain drive parts. They were considering stocking sets. I advised against that for: too few sales, too much money tied up in inventory, too much risk of incorrect installation on the part of the purchaser, too much risk of other items being fubarred (toofed is a better word) when the tensioner lets all hell break loose. The chain, tensioner and sprocket set was returned, but these parts are still out there.
But why? There isn't all that much difference in price of the parts between the two types. The labor is nearly identical.
If you really, REALLY want to put another live round in your Russian Roulette chain drive BHW, go right ahead. For a few dollars more you could eliminate the risk completely.

I took Mr. Nut's advice and now have the gear-driven balance shaft kits on the site. I can't beat Impex's price: they seem to have a sweetheart deal with VW. I'll keep trying to improve the pricing on this stuff. And I've got a complete set in stock, 5 of the gears that were hard to get, and two more sets on order. The parts seem to arrive pretty promptly.

Peter

deming April 12th, 2009 08:06

BS Shaft / Car Comparison
 
OK, I just compared another 2005 TDI Passat with roughly 5000 fewer miles on the clock, that Oilhammer recently updated to the new BS module assembly recently.

I want to thank Ekkoh99 for his time this morning and for meeting with me in order to listen and compare. Nice to know someone with the same car that lives less than 1.0 mile away and frequents the TDI Club.

Here is the deal-- My car has roughly 50,400 miles and his car has roughly 45,000 miles and it was recently updated by Oilhammer. Ekkoh99's car sounds much quieter than mine and more refined. Both cars were warmed up to normal operating conditions and they are both 2005 Passat TDI Wagons.

My car is very noisy at cold start up and sometimes does this hiccupp
thing about 15 seconds after cold start in the morning. I have brown Jersey gloves lining the door panel pockets to help isolate and reduce vibrations.

The big difference between the two cars, is the fact that my car has this whirring sound. It is best described as a rubbing/chaffing sound or desribed as a possible A/C compressor making noise. The A/C was turned off as was the fan motor. Nothing is noticeably rubbing and the sound is most noticeable from the front of the car.

About the only thing making noise with ekkoh99's (oilhammer updated car) would be the high pressure diesel injection sound. Other than that is very quiet!

Thanks
Deming

oilhammer April 12th, 2009 08:11

Yep, there is no doubt about the difference pre and post-op sounds. :)

energy April 12th, 2009 08:25

Whirring sounds. Yes, that's what I hear when I'm in front of my car, a 2005 tdi wagon with 50,600 miles on it. After writing VWoA and 5 dealers in my area, I've heard nothing back. Man, I'm worried to say the least. Tempting to sell it, but that would rub my consciense, but at least I've got another 10K of warranty left. Anyone in the Seattle area have a B5.5 with the upgraded gear driven shaft I could listen to, or better yet, bring to the vw dealer so the service manager could listen to both? I listen to the AHU in my little pickup and there is NO whirring sound at all. No chain in there...

oilhammer April 12th, 2009 08:32

Certainly not worth selling the car over. Upgrade cost is WAY less than anything you could drive to replace the B5, and no way that car could do what this can. Besides, it is not like it is a constant cost. Once done, it's done. No more chain!

FWIW, even a brand new healthy chain driven BHW is noisier than a gear driven one. So do not simply assume something is ready to fly apart JUST because it is noisier than a gear driven one. However seeing more and more of these with even fewer and fewer miles on them but obviously the same age leads me to feel they should all be upgraded ASAP. Ekkoh's was VERY noisy, and at only 44k miles, the tensioner shoe had large chunks torn out of it already.

owr084 April 13th, 2009 06:02

Who here in the Northern Virginia has been in contact with Ms. Fox at VWoA and has not had their balance module changed out yet? I think it would be interesting to give Ms. Fox a live demonstration of a Passat with the geared assembly, and one without. I have one with the geared assembly. Who has one with a noisy chain? Send me a PM.

sincoa April 13th, 2009 06:49

What documents to send to congressman?
 
Hi all,

As I mentioned before I copied my congressman in my letter to VWoA about the BS issue. He wrote back and asked me to send any supporting documents about the problem. I'm not sure, what, if anything to send. Do you have any ideas about what would be best to send to him? I thought about printing out some of the dialogue from here, but am not sure if that's OK to do. Thoughts?? Thanks, Andrea

oilhammer April 13th, 2009 07:16

Send him the .pdf file with the VW info on the chain issue and the subsequent gear redesign.

johnboy00 April 13th, 2009 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon
I took Mr. Nut's advice and now have the gear-driven balance shaft kits on the site. I can't beat Impex's price: they seem to have a sweetheart deal with VW. I'll keep trying to improve the pricing on this stuff. And I've got a complete set in stock, 5 of the gears that were hard to get, and two more sets on order. The parts seem to arrive pretty promptly.

Peter

And I just bought mine from Impex on Friday. :(

leicaman April 13th, 2009 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon
I took Mr. Nut's advice and now have the gear-driven balance shaft kits on the site. I can't beat Impex's price: they seem to have a sweetheart deal with VW. I'll keep trying to improve the pricing on this stuff. And I've got a complete set in stock, 5 of the gears that were hard to get, and two more sets on order. The parts seem to arrive pretty promptly.

Peter

I just find it interesting that the parts flow is good, but the denial by VW is still bad...

maktas April 13th, 2009 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Send him the .pdf file with the VW info on the chain issue and the subsequent gear redesign.

OH,

What is this pdf file all about and where can I download it from?

maktas April 13th, 2009 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by leicaman
I just find it interesting that the parts flow is good, but the denial by VW is still bad...

The fact that VW is stocking these parts appropriately in North America is evidence that they know how big and serious this issue is. I have an appointment set up with Brandon in Toronto this Saturday and he has no problems getting the parts either, except for 1 gear that is back ordered for 3 days only.

Keyser_Soze April 13th, 2009 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilhammer
Send him the .pdf file with the VW info on the chain issue and the subsequent gear redesign.


Oilhammer, could you please give me a link to this info ? I want to try to pursue this under warranty and I want to have something to reference. If anyone else has suggestions for getting this covered under warranty I would really appreciate your input.

oilhammer April 13th, 2009 09:29

Been posted here before, but here it is again:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/BHW...I-original.pdf

sincoa April 13th, 2009 09:39

Thanks, OH. -Andrea

leicaman April 13th, 2009 09:44

If any of you need any of the documention, all you need to do is to log onto the photo area of the boards and look up my photo album. I have two versions posted there. One that is pure and the other has photos of the new and old items in question. Look on the first page of this thread and you will find MoGolf's exquisite "how to" instructions. That will prove to you alone that you should only have a guru or a really good tech do the work.

I know that it will take time to do, but please read through this entire thread and you will get a good grasp of the ordeal. There is a link in this thread to a slide show featuring Oilhammer converting BadgerFan's car.

dub doc April 13th, 2009 12:20

bsm
 
so i hear that vwoa is going to recall all they diesel engines and replace them with gasoline engines

johnboy00 April 13th, 2009 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by dub doc
so i hear that vwoa is going to recall all they diesel engines and replace them with gasoline engines

LOL! If I had thought of that two weeks ago, I would have written up a fake TSB and press release for April fools day!

abctdi April 13th, 2009 14:01

deming and energy, if you both have warranty and you do it right, you can get it replaced at no cost to you.
1. spend quality time educating your vw service manager on the issue
2. allow them to determine yours is noisier than another chained bhw
3. allow them to determine that the noise is internal and not just some bearing
4. allow them to follow their process to get it approved and replaced

Lug_Nut April 13th, 2009 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by maktas
The fact that VW is stocking these parts appropriately in North America is evidence that they know how big and serious this issue is.

I think it's evidence that they know a profit center when they see one. Sell the cars then sell the parts to build them.
Think you'll get reimbursement after-the-fact? Don't count on it. It'll likely be in the form of a credit to be applied towards a future new VW purchase.:rolleyes:

PlaneCrazy April 13th, 2009 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut
I think it's evidence that they know a profit center when they see one. Sell the cars then sell the parts to build them.
Think you'll get reimbursement after-the-fact? Don't count on it. It'll likely be in the form of a credit to be applied towards a future new VW purchase.:rolleyes:

When VW finally got around to extending the warranty on early TDIs for faulty MAFs, most of which failed outside warranty, and which was fairly pricey (about 600 bucks for the part but fairly quick and dirty to install), they did in fact send me a letter saying that if I could document that I had paid for the replacement and had the car serviced to VW standards they would refund the money paid.

Mine had failed just outside warranty though and the dealer went to bat for me and had VW agree to the replacement under warranty. I didn't even have to ask :D

Needless to say I still use the same dealer!

When I got the letter I had already sold the car but they would pay even if you had sold the car.

I think when they DO finally admit to a problem they do it right. Thing is, getting them to admit to replacing about 10,000 BS modules at $3k a piece is a pretty hefty $30 million bucks. That's why it ain't going to happen unless the gov't hauls them kicking and screaming.

I think you'd be more likely to see VW do as you say. As word on this issue gets out, unfixed cars will drop in value by about the same price as the job costs.

VW may, MAY, if we are loud enough, make up the difference in lost resale value IF, and ONLY IF, you trade it in directly on another VAG product.

One MAY get satisfaction on an individual level if one screams loudly enough, have used the same dealer long enough and bought enough cars from them that they'll fear the loss of your business, and have them go to bat for you. I doubt they'll pay the full price but you may get a discount.

Or you could try your luck in small claims court. At least where I live there are "implied" warranties beyond the basic warranty.

At the end of the day, it's probably just less grief to bite the bullet and find a good shop to do the job well. Once you do, you'll have a 20-year, 300,000 mile car, which will spread the cost over a very long time.


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