VW Diesel Renaissance Coming Per VW CEO !?!

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Hopefully soon. Taking good care of the ones I have now though, and stashing a few more.
 

D-Cup

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2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition, 2003 Jetta GLS, 2000 Jetta GLS, 2012 JSW
VW: "Hey guys, we're gonna cut out on the diesels."
Toyota & others: Yeah, I guess we'll cut out on the diesels too."
VW: (wow...look at al that market share...) SUCKERS!!!! Haha! Who wants a diesel!?!
 

D-Cup

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Hopefully soon. Taking good care of the ones I have now though, and stashing a few more.
do you have a maintenance protocol for those cars that are "stashed" and not really driven? or do you just take turns driving them all?
 

Quincy

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VW: "Hey guys, we're gonna cut out on the diesels."
Toyota & others: Yeah, I guess we'll cut out on the diesels too."
VW: (wow...look at al that market share...) SUCKERS!!!! Haha! Who wants a diesel!?!
You might be on to something! Remember in the mid 90s when the big three were all going to bail on RWD sedans? Ford ended up selling that old Crown Vic to every law enforcement agency for over 15 years without really changing it.
 

D-Cup

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You might be on to something! Remember in the mid 90s when the big three were all going to bail on RWD sedans? Ford ended up selling that old Crown Vic to every law enforcement agency for over 15 years without really changing it.
Not really, no. I don't remember much from the mid 90s...

...I was 5. :D
 

Quincy

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Not really, no. I don't remember much from the mid 90s...
...I was 5. :D
Thanks for making some of us feel quite aged. Did you notice that the typical police car you saw during the majority of your life never changed until the last few years? Hell, there's still a bunch Crown Vics out there in the law enforcement community! I for one kind of like seeing them. Unlike how you make me feel, they tend to make me feel youthful. They tend to be badged "Volunteer Senior Patrol" and will still harass a youngster such as myself.:)
 

soldierguy

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California
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'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
Electrics are great...if you don't have to drive very much. I drive 225 miles daily (round trip) just to get to and from work. I need a car that has enough range to do that comfortably, and if it's powered by some sort of petroleum product, I need the car to be able to easily make two round trips so I don't have to hit the gas station every day.

I used to have a '16 Prius, and it would just barely make the two round trips to work...on days with high winds (frequent where I drive), my MPG would drop and I'd end up stopping early for gas. The Jetta, regardless of weather, easily makes 2 round trips, and I could probably make 3 pretty easily. No electric has the range I need, especially given the headwinds and temperature extremes I deal with all the time.

I'm not at all disappointed with the idea of more Diesels entering the market. Bring them on! I'll happily drive them!
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
do you have a maintenance protocol for those cars that are "stashed" and not really driven? or do you just take turns driving them all?
I try and drive them at least once a month, depending on their current condition. I had a 2010 Jetta sedan stashed for nearly a year, it had a cracked DPF and the subsequent clogged EGR tube, both otherwise ran and drove fine. Sat in one of the buildings at our farm property with a gauntlet of critter mitigation devices around it, under it, and in it. I was waiting to see what the "fix" was, but when they finally said they would not fix it unless it was no needing to be fixed (yeah, figure that one out), I deleted/tuned it, and sold it to someone I had in line to buy it if I sold it.

I also usually have a few at home that I'll drive once a week or so. Fortunately I have a place to put them, and usually have a supply of decent take out batteries and a smattering of used take off tires I can rotate on to them as needed to at least make sure they can be driven. I just put a set of used Chinapops I have already mounted on wheels on to a Golf I recently got. Those wheels/tires have spent time on about a half dozen cars at some point or another, LOL.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I have extras but they all get driven pretty regularly.

I'm big on battery tenders. I've replaced 4 batteries in my cars in the past year.
 

Mythdoc

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Jan 28, 2017
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Tennessee
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2011 Touareg, 2015 Q5, 2015 Golf
Mercedes is working on a diesel/electric plug in that could operate on current in cities and on diesel power outside them. Clever idea.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Springfield, VA
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It's perplexing to me that after all that has happened in recent years, VW's CEO is now talking about a diesel renaissance.

After committing the company to going full speed ahead on EV development and even lobbying German officials to end diesel tax breaks, his quote, "Once the knowledge that diesels are eco-friendly firms up in people’s minds, then for me there’s no reason not to buy one," is especially confounding.

In all of this, I see leadership and corporate direction issues at Volkswagen that could put them behind their competitors in the coming years. Regarding a diesel renaissance at Volkswagen, I'll believe it when I see them on dealer lots.
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
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Location
California
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'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
Diesels make a lot of sense, but not in all vehicles and not for all people.

Drive in town a lot and never leave town in that vehicle? Go battery, or a cheap, small gasser.

Mixed driving, weighted towards around town, but need a vehicle for longer trips? Hybrid, or a less expensive but still economical gasser, or a Diesel.

Lots of highway driving? Diesel.

Diesels in compact or mid-size SUVs make a lot of sense as well...torque, and better fuel economy than a gas counterpart.

In the end though, buyers need to look at their needs, and as well, do an actual cost analysis of what the overall costs will be, including purchase price/payment, fuel, and maintenance.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
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'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
There's a reason why diesel kicked steam out of locomotives and gas out of big trucks a half century or so ago and hasn't budged since... Compression ignition is still the most economical power source with a power density that electric vehicles can't compete with. Barring a quantum leap in battery performance, electric propulsion isn't going to evict diesel anytime soon.
 

tdi54

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California
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1981 Rabbit Diesel(sold), 2009 Jetta TDI MT(sold)2010 Jetta TDI MT, 2015 Jetta TDI SEL, DSG, 99 Ford F 350 PSD Dually, 2016 BMW X5 xDrive35d, 2016 535d
I somehow have not lost my hope that VW when the time comes--hopefully soon--will enter the market again in NA. Muller's statement is encouraging. Today I was at a VW dealer and the sales personnel indicated that there was increased demand on used TDI's due to higher gas prices that California is experiencing.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think it is no longer a technical hurdle to bring them here, because the cat is out of the bag so to speak, so everyone who needs to know, knows what to do to make them compliant. It becomes an issue of being a crybaby about it. "I'm taking my ball and going home!" :eek: Only some of us would still like to play ball. And Volkswagen diesels have some of the best balls there are. :D

They may just think that they want to make everyone forget about these transgressions. Germans are like that. But they sadly do not realize some of us saw (and see) the bright side of the engines, and want them back.

We've suffered through the diesel dry spells before (1987-88, 1993-1995, 2007-2008) but what is worse this time is that unlike those other periods, where Volkswagen's sales were pretty low here and the models even offered with a diesel were few or in some cases singular, this time they were really on a roll. And they were even beginning to offer them in the bigger luxo-barges here for the very first time ever. Now it is all gone. Quite depressing. :(
 

branforddiesel

Well-known member
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Oct 26, 2016
Location
CT
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2001 '01 golf TDI 4dr 5speed
I keep hearing that more car companies are pushing to be ICE free in the next 5 or so years. My concern is that once hybrids and full electric become more mainstream the cost of diesel fuel will be like what is in Europe just based on the demand no longer being there
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
It's perplexing to me that after all that has happened in recent years, VW's CEO is now talking about a diesel renaissance.

After committing the company to going full speed ahead on EV development and even lobbying German officials to end diesel tax breaks, his quote, "Once the knowledge that diesels are eco-friendly firms up in people’s minds, then for me there’s no reason not to buy one," is especially confounding.

In all of this, I see leadership and corporate direction issues at Volkswagen that could put them behind their competitors in the coming years. Regarding a diesel renaissance at Volkswagen, I'll believe it when I see them on dealer lots.
Considering the interview was at a European auto show, I would take it more into the context of the European market.

As for the U.S., that's still a pretty shaky bet. Although reps at the Detroit auto show for VW and Audi apparently have heard the "when are the diesels coming back?" a thousand times already. So, if they feel there is still a market then *maybe* they'll come back. But I would assume not a moment before the last CPO "fixed" TDI is off dealer lots.

But the fact remains that it is indeed possible for diesels to meet the latest stringent emissions and still get fantastic fuel economy and make that awesome torquey power we all know and love here. So, that aspect won't be a hurdle. It's been figured out and we still have GM, BMW and Ford diesels fully certified with the more stringent test procedure here.

Now, as for realistic longevity, especially in a city environment, that's a whole other story... They still make sense for those rare individuals who do a ton of freeway driving. But if I had a stop n go traffick-y commute with a fair bit of city driving in there as well, a hybrid or electric makes much more sense and will ultimately be cheaper to operate as well.

But that's all I'm advocating for, just because diesel is not necessarily the best tool for all jobs doesn't mean it should be abandoned altogether if they can infact legitimately meet the latest strict regs (they can). Don't remove the choice from those of us who still see it as the best tool to do what we need it to do just because of popular perception.

The switch to battery electric will NOT happen overnight. It is far too massive a scale on which we burn oil for personal transportation. It is not at all feasible to fully make the switch to battery electric so quick considering infrastructure and the lead time needed to scale up production of batteries and parts for electric vehicles. So, why not encourage the adoption of fuel efficient vehicles of all kinds, so long as they don't cheat emissions, in the meantime? We need good, efficient internal combustion engines until the day comes it is feasible to switch virtually all personal transportation off oil. Until then, completely abandoning one of the best technologies to help reduce oil usage and CO2 output is ridiculous. Europe's CO2 output has already risen for the first time in the last decade thanks to the rapid abandonment of diesel. This has put automakers into panic mode over there as they now have fears they may not meet the EU's targets for CO2 thanks to it.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
It seems to me that the efficiency gap between the best gas and diesel engines has nearly been closed. Toyota now has a 40% thermally efficient, 2.0l-4 cyl., 170 hp engine that needs neither turbochargers nor fragile after treatment systems. If Toyota can do it, there's no reason VW can't as well. They really scr*wed the pooch on dieselgate- I don't see the renaissance coming(for VW at least).
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
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Out of TDI's
Having lived through the 1980's GM diesel fiasco (and owning one at the time), Dieselgate will be much more damaging to the any longevity diesels have here in the states and possibly other countries.

It's a shame for VW to have missed the boat so badly on increasing market share in the US with its diesels. Not only that, their reputation here is severely damaged.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I followed an F-Pace through my town the other day, and wondered what the driver thought about it being a diesel. If he or she thinks about it at all. Unlike the 70s diesels, modern one are very similar to their gasoline powered counterparts. And when I talk to suppliers and vendors, there are some that never heard about dieselgate. And these are people calling on a company that only sells parts for diesels!

So I'm not sure the reputational damage is as great as it was back in GM's day. A plug-in diesel hybrid may be the best of both worlds for someone like me who does a lot of short trips during the week, sits in traffic, but also likes to put in 800 mile days on road trips. I doubt we'll ever see a diesel hybrid here, but it's a possibility this will how Mercedes comes back to this market. Distant, perhaps, but possible.
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
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Location
California
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'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
So I'm not sure the reputational damage is as great as it was back in GM's day.
I hope you're right. There's a big difference between the GM Diesel fiasco and VW's Dieselgate: GM's deal was that the engines were not reliable, but VW's are reliable...it's just a matter of the company trying to get around the rules. Rules which a fair number of people consider to be excessive.
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
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Location
California
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'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
It seems to me that the efficiency gap between the best gas and diesel engines has nearly been closed. Toyota now has a 40% thermally efficient, 2.0l-4 cyl., 170 hp engine that needs neither turbochargers nor fragile after treatment systems. If Toyota can do it, there's no reason VW can't as well. They really scr*wed the pooch on dieselgate- I don't see the renaissance coming(for VW at least).
Toyota engines are good, no doubt. And very efficient...in the '16 Prius I traded in to get my Jetta TDI, I averaged 47 mpg over 93,500 miles, with nearly all of it on the highway. Admittedly I tried to get good fuel economy in the Prius; by driving as gently as possible, I could complete two round-trips of my commute before having to refuel.

But those engines are not perfect. Priuses (and other Toyotas) tend to suffer from carbon buildup in the intake manifolds, as well as oil puddling up in the intake. Most dealerships know this, and strongly recommend a thorough intake cleaning every 30K miles...a cleaning that ends up costing more than a DSG service every 40K miles. Then there's the possibility of battery replacement...$3500 in parts alone for the Li batteries in most current Toyota hybrids, which is quite a bit more money than replacing a DPF.

High mpg numbers are not free.
 

showdown 42

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Joined
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naples,FL
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2016 TDI touareg
My Touareg TDI is the only vehicle that has both tow power and great MPGs. I would love a diesel hybrid in an SUV. Bring it on and I'm done. Most SUVs that can tow get 12 or 13 MPGs . I drive my TREG from CT to sw Florida on 2 tanks of fuel. That makes it 30 MPGS. I can't figure out what to buy next that won't be a huge disappointment.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
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Out of TDI's
I hope you're right. There's a big difference between the GM Diesel fiasco and VW's Dieselgate: GM's deal was that the engines were not reliable, but VW's are reliable...it's just a matter of the company trying to get around the rules. Rules which a fair number of people consider to be excessive.
I think there is another way to say this:

GM - reliability of the engines

VW - Intentionally committing fraud (violations of the U.S. Clean Air Act)

Unfortunately, your statement that "a fair number of people consider (the rules) to be excessive" doesn't hold water since other car companies have managed to meet those rules with their diesels. :confused:

Fortunately, not many people drive diesel passenger cars here in the U.S. so Dieselgate will probably be forgotten in short order. Who knows, maybe in a short time frame, VW will be back in the hunt here with diesel powered passenger cars again.
 

soldierguy

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California
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'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
I think there is another way to say this:
GM - reliability of the engines
VW - Intentionally committing fraud (violations of the U.S. Clean Air Act)
Unfortunately, your statement that "a fair number of people consider (the rules) to be excessive" doesn't hold water since other car companies have managed to meet those rules with their diesels. :confused:
Fortunately, not many people drive diesel passenger cars here in the U.S. so Dieselgate will probably be forgotten in short order. Who knows, maybe in a short time frame, VW will be back in the hunt here with diesel powered passenger cars again.
Just to be clear, I wasn't excusing VW's cheat at all. I agree that there are others who do meet the standards, and VW is certainly capable of meeting those standards. My comment about some believing the emissions standards are excessive is more a reference to the fact that there are people in the US don't give a rat's ass about emissions equipment...a quick spin through the message boards around here makes that clear. The same can be found on most automotive forums. So I think that there are people who don't really care what comes out of the tailpipe of their cars, as long as the car is reliable, makes good power, gets good mpg, etc. I'm not making a judgement on that...I happen to care what comes out of my tailpipe, but I'm not going to berate someone for having different views on that.

I do hope that VW returns to the Diesel market in the US. And I'm excited about the existing and coming Diesel offerings from other manufacturers.
 

Dr Chill

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South Florida
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My Touareg TDI is the only vehicle that has both tow power and great MPGs. I would love a diesel hybrid in an SUV. Bring it on and I'm done. Most SUVs that can tow get 12 or 13 MPGs . I drive my TREG from CT to sw Florida on 2 tanks of fuel. That makes it 30 MPGS. I can't figure out what to buy next that won't be a huge disappointment.
Buy a leftover Touareg, Q7, or Cayenne.
 

flargabarg

Veteran Member
Joined
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TDI
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There's a reason why diesel kicked steam out of locomotives and gas out of big trucks a half century or so ago and hasn't budged since... Compression ignition is still the most economical power source with a power density that electric vehicles can't compete with. Barring a quantum leap in battery performance, electric propulsion isn't going to evict diesel anytime soon.
Diesel itself is getting kicked out by electric now. Even big trains are now electric when there is infrastructure available for it. The running costs are even lower than diesel and they can go through tunnels without complex ventilation systems.
 

kjclow

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I keep hearing that more car companies are pushing to be ICE free in the next 5 or so years. My concern is that once hybrids and full electric become more mainstream the cost of diesel fuel will be like what is in Europe just based on the demand no longer being there
It's not the demand in Europe that is causing their higher fuel costs. Instead it's higher taxes. If there is less demand for fuel (gas or diesel), it should have the opposite reaction. Less demand equals higher supply equals lower price. Unless companies start shutting down reactors to keep the supply demand curve constant.
 
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