Who makes Group 4 507 Spec oils, 0W-30 or 5w-30 oil?

AndrewProbasco

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Help me help my 2012 TDI live forever! Which oils meet the 507 spec and use a group 4 base stock?

This is surprisingly difficult to find out. A lot of them are 505. I just want a true European diesel synthetic in spec.

Bias towards MB1 and AMSOIL, but I don't believe they offer 507 spec.

Thanks!,
Andrew
 

Scooby24

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Not sure if mobil 1's ESP is a group 4 or not but their ESP x1 0w30 or ESP 5w30 is a 507 spec oil.

I'm personally running the ESP x1 0w30.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Any 507.00 compliant 5w30 will be perfectly fine. You'll have a dozen other things fail before the engine's internally lubricated parts will anyway. Don't over think it.

I just did a 430k mile service on one. The Pentosin 5w30 SP3 oil seems to be working just fine in it.
 

casioqv

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I looked into this too, and the only oil I could find that was for sure an ester based group IV was the RedLine Euro-Series 5w30, but it's not VW approved. Personally I am planning to use M1 ESP until the warranty is up, and then switch to RedLine.
 

casioqv

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Dont overthink oil, that's why VW certified them for you.

I don't think VW cares about people trying to get a really long lifespan from an old car, or they wouldn't have so many 'lifetime' fluids. Having a motor with a timing chain, I remember the MB diesel guys showing huge differences in timing chain elongation rate depending on different oil base stocks.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Name 1 lifetime fluid in a mk6 other than manual transmission fluid.
"Mk6" what?

Jetta? Civic?

All G12+ equipped VAG products have "lifetime" coolant, if that is the answer you were looking for. We just normally change it when we need to open the cooling system for something, but it has no specified change interval. None of them can go "indefinitely" without something related to the cooling system needing attention. I have seen a couple of the later 2.5L 5 cyl go ~200k miles on their original water pumps, though.
 

casioqv

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Don't get dragged into thinking group IV oils are going to double the life of your engine, they wont.
Why not? Since engines timing chains show about half the elongation rate, and wear metals accumulate in the oil at about half the rate, doubling the engine life seems like a reasonable expectation.

I am basing my opinion mostly on timing chain elongation rate data collected by the late diesel guru Marshall Booth "Der Diesel Doktor". Basically, he owned a sizable collection of 80s MB Diesels and measured the elongation rates between oil changes with Mobil Delvac 1/TDT vs non-synthetic oils. However that data is 20+ years old now, and oils like VW 507 spec didn't exist yet.

I think the importance of chain stretch is general, and doesn't apply just to engines with chains. It's a measure of metallic wear that is precisely quantifiable and can be tracked over time while the engine remains in service, and is a real world test vs things like a 4 ball wear test.


Edit: apparently some VWs can digitally report stretch via VCDS, which could be a valuable way of evaluating these modern oils. I don't know if any diesels can report this, I've only seen this on the VR6: https://www.clubtouareg.com/threads/how-to-measure-3-2-v6-timing-chain-stretch-with-vcds.185889/
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Mobil has Two 1 ESPs. One is a 0w30, the other a 5w30. The 5w30 has a VW 507.00 spec. There are lots of other oils that do, too: Rowe, Liqui-Moly, Total, Pentosin, to name a few. And as an aside, no Amsoil lubricant has any VW certifications.

And I agree with oilhammer on lifetime coolant. My wagon is going on 18 years and 400K+ miles. Cooling system has never been drained. Haven't had any hoses fail, either. I'd probably add power steering fluid to the lifetime list, as well.
 

Kevinski4

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<snip>


And I agree with oilhammer on lifetime coolant. My wagon is going on 18 years and 400K+ miles. Cooling system has never been drained. Haven't had any hoses fail, either. I'd probably add power steering fluid to the lifetime list, as well.

Hmm. Unless you are running the original waterpump, which is normally replaced at each timing belt interval, your cooling system has been drained 4 times. That's assuming you are still running the original short block anyway, could be more than 4 times.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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How much coolant do you lose in a timing belt change? I believe it's less than half the system's capacity.

But you're right: it has been drained. I'm on my second (well, technically third) long block. Didn't remember that.
 

Scooby24

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Mobil has Two 1 ESPs. One is a 0w30, the other a 5w30. The 5w30 has a VW 507.00 spec. There are lots of other oils that do, too: Rowe, Liqui-Moly, Total, Pentosin, to name a few. And as an aside, no Amsoil lubricant has any VW certifications.

And I agree with oilhammer on lifetime coolant. My wagon is going on 18 years and 400K+ miles. Cooling system has never been drained. Haven't had any hoses fail, either. I'd probably add power steering fluid to the lifetime list, as well.
Per Mobil 1, their 0w30 has the 507 Spec as well.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-esp

Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 has the following builder approvals:

MB-Approval 229.31
MB-Approval 229.51
MB-Approval 229.52
PORSCHE C30
VW 504 00
VW 507 00
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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So it does. We don't list it as 507 on IDParts, probably to reduce confusion that too many Mobil 1 oil choices would cause.
 

tikal

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Mobil has Two 1 ESPs. One is a 0w30, the other a 5w30. The 5w30 has a VW 507.00 spec. There are lots of other oils that do, too: Rowe, Liqui-Moly, Total, Pentosin, to name a few. And as an aside, no Amsoil lubricant has any VW certifications.

And I agree with oilhammer on lifetime coolant. My wagon is going on 18 years and 400K+ miles. Cooling system has never been drained. Haven't had any hoses fail, either. I'd probably add power steering fluid to the lifetime list, as well.
Amsoil "European Car Formula 5W-30 Improved ESP Synthetic Motor Oil" does for VW 504/507 according to this:

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3395.pdf

5W-30 (AEL): API SN; SM...; ACEA C3; BMW LL-04; Porsche C30; GM dexos 2*; Chrysler MS-11106
Manufacturer Approvals:* MB 229.51; VW 504.00, 507.00
 

turbobrick240

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Yes, the AEL is 507 approved. But there's a lot of skepticism about the approval due to the way Amsoil has labeled other products. It's also mostly group iii+ base stock.
 

casioqv

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As discussed in other threads, the 507 spec doesn't allow for group IV base stocks, but some companies (e.g. RedLine) make emissions system compatible group IV oils for cars requiring 507, but they're not VW approved.
 

turbobrick240

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Many of the 507 oils have a goodly amount of group iv base stock, just not entirely. The original M1 ESP 507 formulation for instance had a good charge of PAO.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Read the small print at the bottom of the sheet: AMSOIL products are formulated to meet or exceed the performance requirements set forth by the manufacturers of all applications shown/listed here. It does not say it has the approvals, as Mobil does. Amsoil marketing speak.

Writing that AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic Motor Oil is engineered for use in gasoline or diesel vehicles that require any of the following specifications: as the spec sheet says, is not the same as stating it has approvals.
 

Scooby24

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So it does. We don't list it as 507 on IDParts, probably to reduce confusion that too many Mobil 1 oil choices would cause.
Honestly I'm not sure how much faith I'd put into what's listed on your site...

You have Pennzoil Platinum Euro L listed in the 507 oil category and it is not, according to Pennzoil's TDS.

The Platinum Euro LX is....the L is not.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Honestly I'm not sure how much faith I'd put into what's listed on your site...

You have Pennzoil Platinum Euro L listed in the 507 oil category and it is not, according to Pennzoil's TDS.

The Platinum Euro LX is....the L is not.
Actually, I don't see 507 in the product description.

https://www.idparts.com/pennzoil-platinum-euro-5w30-quart-p-4303.html

Maybe it was in the past, but, as noted, Pennzoil has changed their products. This is a "legacy" product for us: We originally added it to the site for Ecodiesel owners, but it no longer meets the spec for that engine.

Maybe I'm missing something???
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Dont know many hondas with VW507 spec.
Pretty sure coolant is to be changed when you do a timing belt change. Not quite lifetime pal.

Well, "pal", there is no published PM in the schedule for the coolant OR the water pump. We generally just do the water pump as preventative maintenance, but I challenge you, "pal", to find ANY VAG product with "change coolant pump" and/or "change coolant" in the PM schedule.

507.00 is an oil spec, not a coolant spec... "pal". ;)

And what of VAG engines that have no timing belts? You know those exist, right? Even diesels. :p
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I agree the coolant is best to be changed at some point... and that point is when (not if) the cooling system needs something serviced. I DISAGREE that there is a published specification for changing it: because there is not. That is all I was saying. VAG DOES consider the coolant in their vehicles to be "lifetime" and never needs to be serviced. The semantics of that word "lifetime" can mean different things to different people.

In the VAG world, most all of these cars will need something on the cooling system touched before they are 10 years old. The ones that tend to go the longest (and I have a good dataset for this) as I mentioned are the later 2.5L 5 cyl gas engines in the A5, A6, NCS, NMS cars. These have no timing belt. These have no silly plastic housing nonsense water pump assembly like the craptastic EA888 4 cyl gassers have. These have no variable collar water pump that breaks apart like the later VR6 cars have. These have a reasonably simple cooling system overall. The most common reason they have to tap into the cooling system is when the quickie lubers and mouth breathing morons overtighten the oil filter caps to the point they crack the plastic oil filter housing and it starts spewing oil all down the front of the engine... THEN you have to open the cooling system because not only do you have to take the front of the car off for access (which of course means removing the radiator), but the oil cooler is attached to the side of the oil filter housing. So unless you are going to collect and reuse the coolant (which nobody outside of California is likely to do), it is going to get replaced. However, in those circumstances, the coolant is still perfectly fine. There was never any issue with the coolant to warrant its replacement "just because" in the same manner there is no reason to replace the coolant when you replace the water pump preventative wise on a timing belt job. It just gets done be default. It is like replacing the air in a tire when you dismount it to patch a puncture.

BTW, there are ways of measuring coolant quality. One universally used way is to measure latent voltage in the cooling system. It is an old school but effective way of testing, but modern HOAT coolants generally are very good about not allowing this to be a problem, so it is not often thought of much any more.
 

Scooby24

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Actually, I don't see 507 in the product description.
https://www.idparts.com/pennzoil-platinum-euro-5w30-quart-p-4303.html
Maybe it was in the past, but, as noted, Pennzoil has changed their products. This is a "legacy" product for us: We originally added it to the site for Ecodiesel owners, but it no longer meets the spec for that engine.
Maybe I'm missing something???
Shows up in the Category for 507 oils.

https://www.idparts.com/507-approved-oils-c-201.html
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Maybe I'm losing it. I don't see it. I do see we need a new photo for the Castrol, however.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Got it. I had a vehicle in the filter when I clicked on the link. We’ll fix that. Thanks.
 

tikal

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Yes, the AEL is 507 approved. But there's a lot of skepticism about the approval due to the way Amsoil has labeled other products. It's also mostly group iii+ base stock.
Yes I agree about skepticism with certain smaller engine oil blenders such as Amsoil, Schaeffer Oil, Renewable Lubricants, etc.

For the Amsoil VW 507 certified/approved oil (AEL) the Noack value is pretty good for what it is worth:

Noack Volatility, % weight loss (ASTM D5800) 7.1%

Probably comparable to the Noack of Mobile 1 ESP and Castrol Edge Professional LL03 (as examples).
 
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