VW2.0TDI-PD running on Rotella T 130 000miles ???

[brumbar]

Hi everybody! I have been reading this forum 2-3 months. This is my first post. Here is the story: Friend of mine has a repair shop for Commercial Trucks like Freightliner, Kenworth, Peterbilt and etc. He also has a VW Passat 2.0 TDI-PD, I'm not sure what year, but the engine is PD - 100% sure! He is so busy with the shop and never thought that the TDI-PD required some special oil. He used only Shell Rotella T 5W40 synthetic for 130 000 miles!!! Because this oil is the main he uses for the Big Trucks and probably, he is getting it for a very good price. Oil and oil filter changes are done every 5000 miles, Fuel filter every 10 000 miles (The same pump-duse technology is used in commercial trucks, in order injectors to last almost 1 000 000 miles, you must change the fuel filters often, BTW big trucks have 2 fuel filters - the housing of one is clear glass, so you can see the condition.)

Anyway the motor is running excellent, he recently changed timing belt, pulley and water pump. When I told him for the special oil required for the PD engine, first he panic a little bit, but after he said: The commercial diesels using the same technology are running 800 000 miles with rotella T with no problems, if this oil is wrong the engine wouldn't pass 50 000 miles.


I will be very pleased to hear your comments on this one.

 

[TornadoRed]

It sounds like your friend is running a controlled experiment, to see how long a PD engine can run with an API-rated motor oil. The main concern will be the cam lobes and how well they resist wear.

There are not all that many Passat TDIs like your friend's, they were only sold in 2004 and 2005, so less is known about them than the 1.9-liter PD engines in the other models. About the 1.9 PDs, there are some in fine condition that have been run on Mobil Delvac 5w40. And there are some that always had the correct VW-rated oil and they still had cam problems. So most likely there are good cams and bad ones, and even the very best oil will not protect a cam that wasn't good when it came out of the factory.

 

[PDJetta]

The 505.01 oil has some type of extreme pressure agent, I think. The reason the 505.01 specification oil is needed in the VW pumpe duse is because the valve cam lobe and lifters take such a great loading, its not the unit injector rockers and injector cam lobes that wear. The valve lobes wear down and wallow out the lifter tops. Sometimes, the injector lobes wear a little, as well. The reason the valve cam lobes are under so much stress, is because they had to be manufactured about 25% - 30% narrower than the ALH TDI cam, to make room for the diesel injector (or the injector cam lobe, not sure which) to fit into the head between the valve cam lobes.

On heavy duty diesel truck, you do not have this constraint, and the cam lobes are really heavy duty and "beefy" and thus spread the valve and injector load over an adequate "footprint", lowering the load (and oil additive requirements) per unit area considerably.

I'm not sure what advice I would give, as to changing to 505.01 oil. It may me that the Rotella synthetic is adequate enough to prevent damage, if it has held up this long. From posts on cam lifter failures on pumpe duses because of wrong oil, the failures show up at about 70,000 - 110,000 miles.

--Nate

 

[oilhammer]

The commercial truck engines are NOT the same as the VAG PD engine.

So he used the wrong oil, but changes it twice as much as your supposed to...hmmm....

Not sure I would want the guy that cannot read an owner's manual servicing my big expensive truck...LOL!!!

 

[wjdell]

I doubt he will have problems with the engine. However 130k is not that long and the older engines did have lifters that are questionable, new part numbers. There is no kryptenite in 505.01 oils. 507 is a totally different oil and it works in a PD also. The newer VAG oils are emissions driven.

 

[dieseldorf]

The commercial diesels using the same technology are running 800 000 miles with rotella T with no problems, if this oil is wrong the engine wouldn't pass 50 000 miles.

Apples vs. oranges, baby !!

Now, where's my popcorn...

 

[brumbar]

He is doing this for 15 years....

Apples vs. oranges, baby !!

Now, where's my popcorn...

He is doing this for 15 years........completely rebuilding engines and transmissions on a commercial trucks. He said that the difference is that the big engine is running on 2000 rpm and VW on 3000rpm, the big engine can last over 800 000 miles including unit injectors. Some CAT engines like C-15 can go even more - up to 1200 000 miles. The biggest concern with diesels is idling, never left your engine idle for a long time, the oil pressure is low on the main bearings and this cost excessive wear. On the commercial trucks, when they stop to sleep, especially winter time - they using the engine for heating, never leave engine idle (~700rpm), always set the cruise control between 1000-1500 rpm, you can save hundreds of thousands miles on the life of your engine. I think some of this is valid for the light cars too.

Anyway I asked him if anything goes wrong with his engine, he doesn't care so much, he can get all VW parts at 40% discount and + labor - few days of his free time. I'm very curious to see his VW passing 300 000 miles with no problems. He also said that Mobil Delvac is even better, but because he is getting the Rotella on very good price and this allows him the change the oil very often.

My wife has a New Beetle 2006 1.9TDI-PD, 23 000 miles (oil changes done by VW dealer).

I'm wondering right now after the 50 000 miles warranty, what is better, to change every 10 000 miles with some expensive 505.01 stuff or go to walmart get Rotella and change every 5000 miles ???

 

[Bob_Fout]

Ask him to do UOA on that engine, and post pics of under the valve cover...

 

[brumbar]

Ask him to do UOA on that engine, and post pics of under the valve cover...

He is very busy with the shop; he also owns Transportation Company with 6 trucks and has to take care of them. The trucks are breaking down on the road and if the drivers call roadside assistance for commercial truck it will cost him “one arm an one leg” so he is going up and down on the road to fix them or get them running at least to his shop for complete repair.

As I mentioned he already did the timing belt, water pump, so I missed the opportunity to take some pictures of the engine and eventually take some sample of the motor oil for UOA. He assured me that the engine was looking great under the valve cover. I have to trust him, based on his experience. I told him to call me next time if he is doing something on his VW Passat.

He is a big fan of German cars and especially Mercedes Benz, still owns one Mercedes Benz W123 300SD from 1982, he told me once that this model is the most durable and reliable car - Mercedes Benz ever made! The car has 600 000 miles on original motor and still counting!!! I asked him once: Ok, if the Mercedes Benz makes the best cars, who makes the best commercial trucks? Should be MB again??? Right??? No, he said, the best truck is Kenworth with CAT c-15 engine.

My self I’m more to the “Honda” side, I have a Honda Civic with 300 000 miles on original motor with very few problems. You can’t compare the Honda’s to VW for luxury, stability and quietness on the road, fun to drive. But you can compare for reliability and not expensive maintenance. If the VW Beetle 1.9TDI-PD can go over 300 000 miles with very few problems then is well worth the price.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Not sure I would want the guy that cannot read an owner's manual servicing my big expensive truck...LOL!!!

that is if the manual mentions it. mine did not.

 

[oilhammer]

that is if the manual mentions it. mine did not.

Yours says to change the oil every 5000 miles???

 

[Dimitri16V]

Yours says to change the oil every 5000 miles???

No, it does not mention 505.01

 

[Revolutionary_mind]

I bet its fine. Rotella T is a great oil. There have been cam/lifter failures even with only 505.01 oils.

If you want UOA of rotella, I will be running rotella T in my 04 PD next interval. Delvac has been very very good in my PD, hoping the cheaper rotella can do good too.

 

[brumbar]

VW 505.01 from the dealer

I went today to buy some VW 505.01 for my wife's beetle '06 1.9TDI-PD. It turns out that the dealer selling Castrol.

If anyone can tell what oil is better: The ELF, this Castrol or Pentosin ???

On the bottle of the Castrol is marked "Fully Synthetic"???

BTW what of the VW 505.01 oil is 100% synthetic???

 

[dieseldorf]

Big Rigs A-rollin' !!

Nothing in common with a HSDI diesel auto apart from the fuel source.

He said that the difference is that the big engine is running on 2000 rpm and VW on 3000rpm, the big engine can last over 800 000 miles including unit injectors. Some CAT engines like C-15 can go even more - up to 1200 000 miles.

 

[brumbar]

I have an idea ))

Nothing in common with a HSDI diesel auto apart from the fuel source.

The Big Rig engine is working harder, because is pulling about 40 000 pounds.
If the VW 505.01 is so much better than Mobil Delvac 5W40 or Rotella T 5W40. We need somebody brave enough to put Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W30 in his Commercial Truck and run it for 10 000 miles )) The complete overhaul of Detroit Diesel engine is about $6-7000. )))

 

[oilhammer]

The SLX also meets the oil specs for the newer MB diesels, at least the 3.0L V6, which calls for an MB spec of 229.51. Not sure what oil specs the big MBE engines call for, though.

 

[dieseldorf]

If the VW 505.01 is so much better than Mobil Delvac 5W40 or Rotella T 5W40. We need somebody brave enough to put Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W30 in his Commercial Truck and run it for 10 000 miles )) The complete overhaul of Detroit Diesel engine is about $6-7000. )))

This is what escapes me. The Europeans design oil (specs) to function in a highly specific application. It's part of the thought process. The API thought process is limited to "a fluid that gets poured in the engine" It's lowest common denominator strategy and it's been the case forever.

I never said 505.01 is superior to an API oil. OTOH, the vehicle mfr specifies a certain oil with certain characteristics for a reason

API truck oils are good in Class 8 trucks. European diesel automobiles are somewhat different than the big rig, sorry.

If it were as simple as you suggest, brombar, we could dump CI-x oils in all diesel engines around the world. It just hasn't played out that way. The API oils don't meet the requirements of the European diesel automobiles. In fact, no API oils have been recommended in any VW engine for a number of years.

I personally wouldn't suggest running VAG oil in a Ford diesel or a Detroit Diesel for that matter and I doubt the mfr recommends it.

 

[dieseldorf]

This probably won't work either

 

[brumbar]

This is what escapes me. The Europeans design oil (specs) to function in a highly specific application. It's part of the thought process. The API thought process is limited to "a fluid that gets poured in the engine" It's lowest common denominator strategy and it's been the case forever.

I never said 505.01 is superior to an API oil. OTOH, the vehicle mfr specifies a certain oil with certain characteristics for a reason

API truck oils are good in Class 8 trucks. European diesel automobiles are somewhat different than the big rig, sorry.

If it were as simple as you suggest, brombar, we could dump CI-x oils in all diesel engines around the world. It just hasn't played out that way. The API oils don't meet the requirements of the European diesel automobiles. In fact, no API oils have been recommended in any VW engine for a number of years.

I personally wouldn't suggest running VAG oil in a Ford diesel or a Detroit Diesel for that matter and I doubt the mfr recommends it.

What I wanted to say is: If you are willing to make an experiment, you will be better using Mobil Delvac 5w40 in your PD engine than Commercial Diesel using any VW 505.01 oil.

But of course the best is to stick with Manufacturer recommended oil.

 

[dieseldorf]

What I wanted to say is: If you are willing to make an experiment, you will be better using Mobil Delvac 5w40 in your PD engine than Commercial Diesel using any VW 505.01 oil.

I agree, but that one can be filed in the "so what" folder

What owner/operator is gonna mail order ELF oil @ $15 per litre to dump in his Cummins that holds 10 gallons of oil

 

[dieseldorf]

Brum, are you buying the car or still in the "thinking about it" mode? Can you buy it cheap should it need some work?

 

[brumbar]

What car ???

Brum, are you buying the car or still in the "thinking about it" mode? Can you buy it cheap should it need some work?

What car ??? My wife has a VW New Beetle '06 1.9TDI-PD, I drive Honda Civic.

I would like to mention something here, the legendary German quality is not valid these days, only the fine German engineering.

The most reliable cars now are mostly Japanese brands. I’m not saying: More safe to drive or better to drive.

This New Beetle 1.9TDI-PD has some expensive 6spd automatic DSG transmission, if this wonder brakes down; it will cost about $8000. I don’t see the point of remaking the most successful model of VW – the Beetle. The main idea of the Old Beetle was: A very reliable, simple to repair, low cost maintenance, and affordable car – anybody can buy.

Meet the VW Beetle of now days, the Honda Civic.

 

[oilhammer]

What car ??? My wife has a VW New Beetle '06 1.9TDI-PD, I drive Honda Civic.

I would like to mention something here, the legendary German quality is not valid these days, only the fine German engineering.

The most reliable cars now are mostly Japanese brands. I’m not saying: More safe to drive or better to drive.

This New Beetle 1.9TDI-PD has some expensive 6spd automatic DSG transmission, if this wonder brakes down; it will cost about $8000. I don’t see the point of remaking the most successful model of VW – the Beetle. The main idea of the Old Beetle was: A very reliable, simple to repair, low cost maintenance, and affordable car – anybody can buy.

Meet the VW Beetle of now days, the Honda Civic.

Volkswagen still builds cars like that, they just refuse to sell them here.

And FWIW, the old Beetles were simple and tough, but they were hardly long lasting. Most of the air-cooled engines were flat worn out by 80k miles.

 

[dieseldorf]

What car ??? My wife has a VW New Beetle '06 1.9TDI-PD, I drive Honda Civic.

.

I thought the point of this thread was your consideration of this car that belongs to your friend...and you were considering a purchase and needed to estimate how much damage has been done

 

[kotflb]

I've been saying for a long time that my '99 Mack, 460 hp, 1650 ft lbs torque, 6 cyl, unit injected engine is the same as the pd, except for the EGR the VW stuck on these 2L engines. Mack had cam lobe trouble on the first engines b4 they replace them with stronger cams. The main difference is the Mack has a 30k psi injection as compared to the 20k (not sure) psi of the TDI. VW could have made a stronger cam if they wanted to, but the didn't want to spend the extra money for some unknown reason. THE low end torque of the Mack engine is way above any work a PD will ever come close to even when you break it down litre per litre. And even with all that straining, grunting, and 35psi turbo boost, the Mack engine still manages over a million miles on 15w40 dino or synthetic oil, without trashing the cam.

I wouldn't have any problem using 15w40 in my 05 Passat TDI, just as I have been using it in my 4L Jeep for the last 180k miles.

 

[brumbar]

Volkswagen still builds cars like that, they just refuse to sell them here.

And FWIW, the old Beetles were simple and tough, but they were hardly long lasting. Most of the air-cooled engines were flat worn out by 80k miles.

…… for the standards of the ’50 and ’60, they were good enough. These years the better synthetic oils weren’t available. I bet if you have the opportunity to pour Mobile 1 or Elf Full synthetic in these old engines, you will be surprise, what they are capable of.

On the other side the air cooled VW engine is very simple, no water pumps, no coolant to change. Some models even had a gasoline consuming heater, made for Canada and Northern Countries.

The complete overhaul of these VW engines was very simple and fast, you can do it your self in your garage.

BTW, have you ever heard about car named “Trabant”, it was produced in East Germany before the reunion. Two door, 4 passenger, about the size of the minicooper today, two cylinders 600cc motor, two stroke engine, air cooled, lasts about 60 000 miles. The overhaul is so easy to do it your self, no oil pump, no water pump, no fuel pump. If you have the parts and some tools – you can do it practically on the road. The car had a very good acceleration, better than many 4 stroke engines on these days. Very economical about 50 MPG. But the strict emissions demands in late ’80 actually killed this great car.

 

[brumbar]

I thought the point of this thread was your consideration of this car that belongs to your friend...and you were considering a purchase and needed to estimate how much damage has been done

Yes, I started this tread, hoping to hear different comments – based on real experience, not copying and pasting many different stickers for oil recommendations. :))

 

[nortones2]

…… for the standards of the ’50 and ’60, they were good enough. These years the better synthetic oils weren’t available. I bet if you have the opportunity to poor Mobile 1 or Elf Full synthetic in these old engines, you will be surprise, what they are capable of.

On the other side the air cooled VW engine is very simple, no water pumps, no coolant to change. Some models even had a gasoline consuming heater, made for Canada and Northern Countries.

The complete overhaul of these VW engines was very simple and fast, you can do it your self in your garage.

BTW, have you ever heard about car named “Trabant”, it was produced in East Germany before the reunion. Two door, 4 passenger, about the size of the minicooper today, two cylinders 600cc motor, two stroke engine, air cooled, lasts about 60 000 miles. The overhaul is so easy to do it your self, no oil pump, no water pump, no fuel pump. If you have the parts and some tools – you can do it practically on the road. The car had a very good acceleration, better than many 4 stroke engines on these days. Very economical about 50 MPG. But the strict emissions demands in late ’80 actually killed this great car.

At its peak Trabant produced 25bhp: accelerated slightly better than a snail, but not much!!!! 0-62 mph in 21 seconds. Nice video here: http://tinyurl.co.uk/5d96

 

[oilhammer]

Brumbar, if you put modern synthetic oil in the old air cooled VAG engines, even fresh healthy ones, it just runs out from every possible joint on to the ground, and whatever is left gets burned rather quickly. It is quite funny to witness them STOP leaking (so bad) once regular oil is put back in.