Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Ed's TDI

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Looks great but I think their information is a bit off from the start if the gas car get 29 mpg and the diesel only gets 32. In real world terms, you would have different numbers. If you were to compare a Golf 2.0 and TDI, the numbers would be 24/31 for the gasser and 38/46 (city/highway) according to VW's website. That difference would shorten the time/mileage needed to recoup the difference in cost for a diesel.
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Correct, the link is just an example of how to calculate. It is assumed one knows what the average cost of diesel and gasoline is over a year and the difference in the purchase price between a gasoline and diesel. In my case, the cost is $1560 Canadian. You also have to average out the cost of the diesel additives and the difference between synthetic and regular motor oil to get an accurate difference. But, I predict that most people here who will do the calculation will omit this part so they feel they are reaching the break-even point sooner. Even a difference of $200 a year is significant, as you can see from the example of $427.65.
 

maxforce

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

if you fiqure in the pleasure to drive factor. I think I recouped right off the bat. I think if you buy a diesel only for the mileage you will not be as happy with it as someone who is a fan of diesels
 

ruking

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Yes the factors used are pretty spot on. In fact when I did the calculation to get my new 2003 VW Jetta, I came up independently of this article with app the same answer. (60k)
A pleasant surprize has been the depreciation is FAR less than I had projected.
 

mgwerks

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

If you drive 35K-40K miles a year, like many of us, the payback comes quickly.
 

Kabin

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Also, don't forget the typically higher resale value of a diesel.
 

doc_m

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

this is true about recouping and well I never even considered the price difference when I bought mine I just knew I had to drive a TDI, just couldn't picture myself driving a gasser, unless of course at the moment it would be in a Toureg.
 

ymz

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Judging from your recent posts, you seem to be having buyers' remorse for having purchased a TDI... I suggest you explore one of the TDI's advantages: its limited depreciation ability! Sell your car and buy a gas model!!

We recently had to drive a gas Jetta while our TDI was recovering from a collision, and decided that we couldn't afford our lifestyle if we had to drive the gasser on a full time basis! Any projected little side-trip would have to be carefully weighed as to whether the cost of the trip could be justified!! (A little trip to Belleville cost about C$30 round trip... in our TDI it would have been about C$14... one amount is "real money" while the other is pocket change!)

Yuri.
 

Muggins

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

The moral of this story is that everyone rationalizes the position they are defending in the way that best supports their position.

Personally, I feel the TDI is more economic than a gas vehicle, however, from a service standpoint those savings can quickly be nullified, especially if the component or system failing is not handled competantly and honestly.
 

Kabin

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

...however, from a service standpoint those savings can quickly be nullified, especially if the component or system failing is not handled competantly and honestly.
If I understand this correctly, that would apply to either gas or diesel service work and wouldn't affect the cost analysis.
 

Muggins

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Yes it would, except when you compare such things as a spark plug vs. a glow plug, a gas fuel pump vs. diesel fuel pump, etc.
 

andrewc

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Hmmm, here's the results of my playing around with a simple spreadsheet for a few minutes:

breakeven miles = cost difference / [G$gal/Gmpg - D$gal/Dmpg]

As a rough rule of thumb, VW diesels (not Touareg!) cost about $1000 more than the gas version (assuming the 2.slow is equivalent, but that's another argument...)

Assume that gasoline and diesel fuel cost the same at $2/gal.

Using 45mpg for the TDI and 33mpg for the gasser, breakeven takes around 60k miles.

Cost of fuel matters a lot - if both gas and diesel prices went up to $2.50/gal, then breakeven happens after 50k miles.

For us high mileage drivers, 60k doesn't take long....less than two years for me.

And yes then there's resale value, maintenance costs, and what about the value of your time when you've just eliminated one third of your trips to the filling station? etc., etc, etc.

At the heart of it is a higher (non-fuel) cost of the TDI, offset by an mpg difference.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I think your mileage comparasions are off. I regularly get 45 MPG in my TDI. If I had a 1.8T, which I would have to have over a 2.0 to have comparable performance, I'd estimate that my average mileage would be between 24-26 MPG, on premium, which here has persisted with costing as much or a little more than premium diesel.

Also, I think that repairs you incur with a car are mostly a crap shoot. The best you can do is compare the charges for routine maintenance, and the rest is chance, in my opinion. Whether I have to replace glow plugs, ignition coils, clutch, etc., is somewhat random.

If you figure you get (at least) the price premium for a diesel back at resale, then the diesel is cheaper to operate from day one.
 

Rammstein

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Ok, my turn.

So you know B4V TDI are not that common and that there were no B4V 2slow.

So I have to compare my baby that gets 50 mpg life average with a POS VR6 B4V...

The manual VR6 will have to go 53344.2km to get even with the, then, lower price of a TDI vs a VR6...


The auto VR6 B4V will have to go 53214.77km....


So then, lets compare The Black Variant of Death with a B4 sedan, manual with the 2 slow.

I'll have to drive 36145 km to break even.

I've done that much practically 3 times since I own my TDI....

I'm the kind of guy to use synthetic no matter the car.

So I would run a 2slow on premium and Mobil 1 5W30.

Putting additives too (octane booster and anti freeze stuff for winter).

That's why I didn't factor the oil and additives in the equation.

I used fueleconomy.gov for consumptions and Road Report for prices.

I've done it all, even with a B4 sedan auto with the 2slow: 20 000 km to break even...


To me there's no point in this exercise for us B4V owners because there was, and still is no other car like these good old Passat TDI's!
 

frugality

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Being the engineer geek type, I ran the numbers before I bought my 2000 TDI Golf. Given that the TDI was US$1250 more than a 2.0 gasser, fuel prices about the same as regular unleaded, and an average mileage for each, I came up with a break-even point at 70k miles. I'm now at 130k miles, so I've recouped almost twice that.
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I think your mileage comparasions are off. I regularly get 45 MPG in my TDI. If I had a 1.8T, which I would have to have over a 2.0 to have comparable performance, I'd estimate that my average mileage would be between 24-26 MPG, on premium, which here has persisted with costing as much or a little more than premium diesel.

Also, I think that repairs you incur with a car are mostly a crap shoot. The best you can do is compare the charges for routine maintenance, and the rest is chance, in my opinion. Whether I have to replace glow plugs, ignition coils, clutch, etc., is somewhat random.

If you figure you get (at least) the price premium for a diesel back at resale, then the diesel is cheaper to operate from day one.
Nope, I get 45 mpg city/hwy combined Imperial or 37 mpg (US). That's with 95% city driving. The mpg for a regular Honda Civic is actually very good. In Vancouver, it's not advantageous to drive a diesel, especially not when the price of regular fuel dropping to 65 cents a litre while diesel is at 89.9 cents/litre and it hasnt dropped despite diesel fuel has dropped elsewhere in the world. On the otherhand, if I was on Vancouver Island, about 50 km away the price of diesel would me more in line with gasoline. There is a lot of price gauging and fixing going on here.

Also, I havent checked recently, but if I recall correctly, the resale of a Honda Civic is better than a TDI.
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Judging from your recent posts, you seem to be having buyers' remorse for having purchased a TDI... I suggest you explore one of the TDI's advantages: its limited depreciation ability! Sell your car and buy a gas model!!

Yuri.
I wish I could Yuri, but that would mean that I would start all over again with the monthly payments. Right now, I am just over 1/2 way through my term.
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

If you drive 35K-40K miles a year, like many of us, the payback comes quickly.
35,to 40,000 MILES a YEAR? Holy Cow, Batman! That's a lot of driving. I only drive 10,000 Miles!
 

POWERSTROKE

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I never buy a car for low operating cost. I buy a car because I like the way it drives. The fuel mileage to me, is a nice added +.
 

Thunderstruck

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

EEK! I was checking out vehicles at fueleconomy.gov, in the dual fuel section. The ones that can use E85 fall flat on their face-Dodge Ram getting 12/16 only gets 9/11 on E85.
 

whitedog

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

The moral of this story is that everyone rationalizes the position they are defending in the way that best supports their position.
If there was a way for me to agree more, I would.

And no. I don't regret buying my TDI.
 

Rammstein

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

If you drive 35K-40K miles a year, like many of us, the payback comes quickly.
35,to 40,000 MILES a YEAR? Holy Cow, Batman! That's a lot of driving. I only drive 10,000 Miles!
And that's the number 1 reason you shouldn't have bought a TDI.

The poor baby is rotting doing, 16000 km a year?????

I do that in less than 3 months...


In a year an a half of ownership (december 3rd), I've put 98 000 km on The Black Variant of Death....


On top of everything, I would like to point out that you don't seem, Blondee, to be the fanatical type that we all are...

From this end of my screen, you seem like 90% of people that drive reliable, fugly and boring toasters on wheels.


You ain't a Volks enthusiast, as far as I can see by your posting here.

But I'm sure you are very nice guy (or gal) anyway.

So tell me, how many years to break even for you.

Ever considered an hybrid.

It takes way more time for their owners to recoup buying premium...
 

wny_pat

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

you should factor in the cost difference between synthetic oil and dino oil
Why? I run synthetic in my gas car and in my garden tractor. Change gas car at 10,000 miles and garden tractor at 120 hours. Been running synthetic since Mobil 1 first came out many, many years ago.
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Rammstein, when I was considering the TDI (several months prior to my GMAC lease expiring) the cost of diesel was considerably cheaper than what it is now. Even though I didnt drive a lot, I didnt realize or perhaps do enough research about the TDI and it's issues (what I consider issues). I only found out about Fred's place a month after I bought the TDI. As soon as I got the TDI, I got Fred to do the EGR Vag-com mod to "insure" that I wouldnt have the clogging intake and EGR that I got a few months ago. So much for believing what you read or even what is written by the creator of this site. Shame on you Fred!

It looks like my car wont break even for at least another 4 more years. I have had it for 2.5 years already. I looked at the hybrid, but that was a no brainer. The car is fuel efficient but hardly cost effective. The maintenance is entirely unpredictable.

wny_pat, you DO need to factor synthetic oil because the average car owner doesnt have a tractor or use synthetic oil. Therefore, they spend upto 4.5x less for dino oil.

This thread has solidified the fact that the TDI is not for everyone. Those that benefit from this type of car are the ones who drive considerably more than the average person: 12000 miles or 20,000 km/year.
 

ymz

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

>>Those that benefit from this type of car are the ones who drive more than the average person<<

Well, I would say that the _average_person_ belonging to this club drives a heck of a lot
I sense a poll coming on... how many miles/year do you drive... (I'm sure it's been done... perhaps time for a new one...) We drove 93,000 km the first year we had the 2003... down from over 100,000 the last year of the 1992 TD..... I know, it's crazy...

All the best,

Yuri.

PS: you mentioned oil changes and not using synthetic oil on a gas vehicle... I belive you'd need twice as many oil changes, which would nullify the difference in the price of oil...

PPS: If you only drive 16,000 km /year, I don't see that your fuel bills are high enough to complain...
 

Blondee

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

>>

PS: you mentioned oil changes and not using synthetic oil on a gas vehicle... I belive you'd need twice as many oil changes, which would nullify the difference in the price of oil...
Not when the price of synthetic is up to 4.5x the price of dino. Also, it depends if you follow the dealer recommended interval or the manuals.

PPS: If you only drive 16,000 km /year, I don't see that your fuel bills are high enough to complain...
Gasoline today was selling for $.65 CDN/litre or $3.00. USD/US gallon while diesel was selling for $.90 CDN/litre or $4.08 USD/US gallon. That's enough reason to complain. There is absolute no justification for this much of a price gap in the Vancouver area.
 

TornadoRed

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Also, don't forget the typically higher resale value of a diesel.
And longevity!
That is why I believe that any calculation that uses purchase price is wrongly configured.

Think of your car as a piece of equipment, and try to estimate depreciation. I think TDIs depreciate more slowly (per year or per mile) than other comparable cars.

Then consider maintenance and repair costs... probably more (on average) during the first 100k miles, but less during the second and third.

Fuel costs we know about.

I might claim that the purchase of a new TDI makes more sense for someone who drives lots of miles... but that is also the case for gassers. The cost per mile will always be higher if you drive 10k miles per year, than if you drive 40k miles per year.

I drive a lot, so I bought a TDI because of its low operating cost.
 
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