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-   -   EA288 - A diesel way forward? (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448597)

panda September 25th, 2015 06:02

EA288 - A diesel way forward?
 
The "Clean Air" thread in the Emissions forum has become unreadable. It also seems to be full of posts from people who have recently joined and don't own any TDI vehicles. The amount of condemnation mixed with hand wringing is astounding.

I would like to see here a more focused discussion around the EA288. There are many questions about it's level of NOX emissions compared to the older engines and even whether it can be brought into compliance. If VW diesels have a future it will be based at least for a while on this motor. If the EA288 can't be made to pass the test it brings up a whole set of problems for those of us lucky/unlucky enough to own one.

I took delivery of my 2015 Sportwagen a little over 2 weeks ago. I really like this car and although I don't expect a buy back I don't want a car stripped of the reasons why I purchased it in the first place. If the diesel program is cancelled, caring for our vehicles will become very difficult. For the last 12 years I have relied on Fred's to care for my ALH. Although I've had VW diesels since 1982 I have never had good luck with the VW dealer network for service. I fear if only a few folks have an EA288 the collective knowledge available here will be very limited.

ZippyNH September 25th, 2015 06:10

Engines that include a SCR system should have ZERO issues....
VW might need to increase the flow rate of the DEF/adblue, resulting in refilling between oil changes (maybe an extra $10 per 5000 miles) so no big deal....
I believe the stop sale has more to do with leverage and the fact the 2016 were not certified by the epa for sale....so till all is tested, and passes, VW wants to be cooperative, and not push limits ..and selling tdi's too soon would be a distraction.

Now ..it becomes an economic choice....can VW sell enough tdi cars in volume to make sense? Lots of support and parts just for tdi cars, lots of training...now lots of government oversight....maybe they give up...maybe they continue...
Anybody have a crystal ball?

panda September 25th, 2015 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZippyNH (Post 4899178)
Engines that include a SCR system should have ZERO issues....
VW might need to increase the flow rate of the DEF/adblue, resulting in refilling between oil changes (maybe an extra $10 per 5000 miles) so no big deal....
I believe the stop sale has more to do with leverage and the fact the 2016 were not certified by the epa for sale....so till all is tested, and passes, VW wants to be cooperative, and not push limits ..and selling tdi's too soon would be a distraction.

Now ..it becomes an economic choice....can VW sell enough tdi cars in volume to make sense? Lots of support and parts just for tdi cars, lots of training...now lots of government oversight....maybe they give up...maybe they continue...
Anybody have a crystal ball?

The leverage explaination makes sense as the EPA seemed to be getting the run around from VW for awhile. Although I wanted an end of year 2015 the dealer was rather vague when I asked about the 2016. Who knew what and when may become important.

greengeeker September 25th, 2015 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZippyNH (Post 4899178)
Engines that include a SCR system should have ZERO issues....
VW might need to increase the flow rate of the DEF/adblue, resulting in refilling between oil changes (maybe an extra $10 per 5000 miles) so no big deal....

This needs to be put in a sticky so people stop freaking out. SCR is fantastically efficient at taking care of NOx emissions so improving the EA288 emissions levels isn't going to be difficult to fix.

Those without SCR are another story but that's not the topic of discussion for this thread. ;)

mkane September 25th, 2015 09:33

As we all know, speculation. Fingers crossed. Maybe I should have my car tested for nitrogen oxide.

IndigoBlueWagon September 25th, 2015 09:34

Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

panda September 25th, 2015 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 4899504)
Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

I hope this is true. The idea of clean passenger car diesel of any design is really taking a beating in the press these days. Even so I think I'll start collecting some VCDS data for comparison following any ECU reflashing at the dealer.

ZippyNH September 25th, 2015 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkane (Post 4899502)
As we all know, speculation. Fingers crossed. Maybe I should have my car tested for nitrogen oxide.

Educated speculation...
A few heavy truck engine makers tried to do diesels emissions without SCR in the 2010-2011 timeframe (which is when the rules were tightened).and they subsequently were caught and fine much like what is happening to VW...
In that case, the builder was fined, and the motors were grandfathered for life as OK...
The SCR engines like the Detroit DIESEL DD-13/DD-15 are able to easily meet the clean air rules, and even qualify to make the builders clean air credits which are sold for extra $$.
The basic issue was the cost and complexity of the SCR system finely outweighed the extra fuel burn of the non SCR motors...
Much like VW,they passed by gradually reducing the regens, and reducing the egr flow rates, the longer they ran....so the mpg they returned was closer to pre-emissions trucks, and not really as bad as in full emissions mode where they would need to return every 200 miles or so...these trucks ran so hot, turbo's failed yearly like WATERPUMP and ALTERNATORS, and washerfuild would BOIL UNDER THE HOOD....not good..
Compare this to SCR motors, where they run a regen every 600-1000 miles (using less fuel) and using the urea addative (DEF/adblue) to capture the nox till it is consumed in a regen...
In my experience with HD trucks, the pre-emissions motors got very good mpg, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY WERE SIMPLE.....then the non SCR and high flow egr motors did progressively worse....then the SCR motors utilizing def came out, and the motors could be tuned for economy, rather emissions....MPG WENT UP DRAMATICALLY..... pre-emissions trucks (about 2005) were typically 6.5-7 mpg, then slightly newer trucks with the higher flow egr and non SCR usually went down to 5.5-6 mpg range...then the SCR def trucks came out and they got 8.5 mpg...I have done this at 80,000 lbs...
And in a truck, the frame and body is sold, and the engine of your choice fitted...so this was all in similar aerodynamic bodies and trailers.
There is no reason to believe that the ea288 should loose very much if any mpg...
The non SCR motors...not so sure....they might take a big hit in mpg....I am glad I don't have one at this point, as VW software will likely reduce their power by lots, and now every inspection will be more thorough in looking too see if the right items are installed...

Kamerad_K September 25th, 2015 10:16

My uncle is a mechanic who works on semis, he said DEF is really the only way to reduce NOx emissions while still getting good fuel economy. In retrospect it seems kind of odd that they would fit the EA288 with SCR if it wasn't necessary on the previous models although if I understand correctly the AdBlue tank is the reason they had to modify the rear suspension.

pandagolf September 25th, 2015 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon (Post 4899504)
Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

This. Crossing my fingers this is the case.

My dealer actually told me this week that my 2016 TDI GSW order is expected next week - who knows how accurate the comm# dates are now though...

sapgar September 25th, 2015 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 4899173)
The "Clean Air" thread in the Emissions forum has become unreadable. It also seems to be full of posts from people who have recently joined and don't own any TDI vehicles. The amount of condemnation mixed with hand wringing is astounding.

I would like to see here a more focused discussion around the EA288. There are many questions about it's level of NOX emissions compared to the older engines and even whether it can be brought into compliance. If VW diesels have a future it will be based at least for a while on this motor. If the EA288 can't be made to pass the test it brings up a whole set of problems for those of us lucky/unlucky enough to own one.

I took delivery of my 2015 Sportwagen a little over 2 weeks ago. I really like this car and although I don't expect a buy back I don't want a car stripped of the reasons why I purchased it in the first place. If the diesel program is cancelled, caring for our vehicles will become very difficult. For the last 12 years I have relied on Fred's to care for my ALH. Although I've had VW diesels since 1982 I have never had good luck with the VW dealer network for service. I fear if only a few folks have an EA288 the collective knowledge available here will be very limited.

I've had both engines in the past year and a half. My JSW with the ea189 regen'd all the f'ing time, despite highway trips... blah, blah, blah

The new ea288 GSW regens rarely. Great engine and car. My prediction is that the ea288 will comply readily with a reflash without much impact to performance... maybe a little on FE, but I average above the EPA highway when calc'd by hand already.... and that's way better than what I averaged with my other TSI Golf.

Unfortunately, the ea189 fiasco will probably really set diesel back enough to allow high efficient gas and hybrids to put the nail in the coffin here in the US. The 2015 and 2016 ea288 may be the last higher volume TDIs produced by VW for the US market, despite being truly clean in the end. VW has great TSI technologies now and just need to get those going. Will be a dark 2-3 years for VW USA, and hopefully they don't pull out.

ZippyNH September 25th, 2015 11:43

https://www.newscientist.com/article...affected-cars/

This is a good, and fairly short read!!
But this is WHY i am not as worried about the SCR/DEF equipped cars...
Quote:

There are drawbacks to all these approaches. Recirculating exhaust gas, unsurprisingly, reduces engine performance. LNTs work by absorbing NOx but they rapidly become saturated with it. They have to be regenerated every few seconds by pumping extra fuel into the engine, which increases fuel consumption.

SCRs work by injecting urea into the exhaust, which reacts with nitrogen oxides, forming harmless nitrogen gas and water. Car owners have to refill the tank of urea (sold as AdBlue) every few months. It also takes up space, so SCRs are only fitted on larger vehicles.

Volkswagen’s cheat must involve tweaking some or all of these factors. The software may turn off exhaust gas recirculation to boost performance, for instance. It may regenerate LNTs less often than required to save fuel, or reduce the amount of urea injected into SCRs so the tank needs refilling less often.

In theory, Volkswagen could reduce NOx emissions by fixing the software, although its engineers seem to have been unable to do this when consulted by the US Environmental Protection Agency about the anomalous test results. The trouble Volkswagen faces is that, in the car models that do not have SCRs, reducing NOx emissions could have a major impact on performance and fuel consumption. If courts and regulators deem this unacceptable, the huge bill facing the car maker will soar even higher.

makattack September 25th, 2015 12:17

http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

This press release seems to confirm the EA288 motor is not part of the recall:

Quote:

The internal evaluation revealed that approximately five million Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand vehicles are affected worldwide. Certain models and model years of these vehicles (such as the sixth generation Volkswagen Golf, the seventh generation Volkswagen Passat and the first generation Volkswagen Tiguan) are equipped exclusively with type EA 189 diesel engines.

As previously announced, all new Volkswagen Passenger Car brand vehicles that fulfill the EU6 norm valid throughout Europe are not affected. This therefore also includes the current Golf, Passat and Touran models.

sapgar September 25th, 2015 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by makattack (Post 4899758)
http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

This press release seems to confirm the EA288 motor is not part of the recall:

Doesn't mention the EA288 specifically. May need to validate via testing with the EPA or something before making the explicit call out.

pandagolf September 25th, 2015 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by makattack (Post 4899758)
http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

This press release seems to confirm the EA288 motor is not part of the recall:

Hmm..this only mentions EU6 and not US/CARB.


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